Should the UK remain a member of the EU

[Anny Road]

Spam with cheese. Want

With some squeezy cheezy peaz.

[skend04]

Pretty astonishing that hundreds of thousands of people could lose their livelihoods over a rigged poll and votes this week. Any other country and we'd be bombing the shit out of it like Libya and Syria. But not a peep here, the BBC appear to have a blanket ban on the breaking pairs scandal too.

 

Mind boggling!

[Lee909]

[magicrat]

getting our country back

 

[Anubis]

Pretty astonishing that hundreds of thousands of people could lose their livelihoods over a rigged poll and votes this week. Any other country and we'd be bombing the shit out of it like Libya and Syria. But not a peep here, the BBC appear to have a blanket ban on the breaking pairs scandal too.

 

Mind boggling!

How was the poll rigged? People may have been misinformed when they voted, but unless you can show there was tampering with votes then it wasn't rigged.

[Lee909]

Im assuming he means tbe lies told in the leave campaign and tbe fact they broke plenty of election laws

[skend04]

How was the poll rigged? People may have been misinformed when they voted, but unless you can show there was tampering with votes then it wasn't rigged.

Okay, rigged was a bit sensationalist.

[Rico1304]

Looks like it’s 5000 new recruits at HMRC, that’s £200m extra a year. Fucking mental.

[Anny Road]

Looks like it’s 5000 new recruits at HMRC, that’s £200m extra a year. Fucking mental.

Or a Neymar. We spent that on transport on a royal tours. Pennies.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

Or a Neymar. We spent that on transport on a royal tours. Pennies.

Where do we find these "pennies"? The economy will shrink.

[Anny Road]

I’d be more concerned about the billions in trade and services we will loose.

[skend04]

I’d be more concerned about the billions in trade and services we will loose.

Didn't you vote for that?

[Anny Road]

No I was asked if I wanted to be in the EU. I still don’t.

No one asked did I want to trade with them. That was a given. They needed us more than we needed them.

[Strontium]

They needed us more than we needed them.

Absolutely mental. I think a bloc of 27 countries can absorb the loss of 1 trading partner better than 1 country can absorb the loss of 27.

[Anny Road]

That’s not what I believe but that was the extent of the trade debate prior to the referendum. That and instant mass unemployment and depression following a leave vote.

Never was it suggested that voting for Brexit meant no deal with the EU.

Just like when we voted to enter the common market we were never asked options of political union. Now when being asked about leaving a political union we will be yanked from a common trading block.

The whole thing is a shambles.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

That’s not what I believe but that was the extent of the trade debate prior to the referendum. That and instant mass unemployment and depression following a leave vote.

Never was it suggested that voting for Brexit meant no deal with the EU.

Just like when we voted to enter the common market we were never asked options of political union. Now when being asked about leaving a political union we will be yanked from a common trading block.

The whole thing is a shambles.

Well, quite.  It was repeatedly, emphatically stated that getting a deal would be a piece of piss.

https://www.buzzfeed.com/patricksmith/nobody-said-it-was-easy?utm_term=.pryykjzJz#.ggKEWbD5D

 

It's almost like those prophets of "Project Fear" in the Remain campaign were right to call bullshit on these Leave claims.

[Anny Road]

In fairness mate the remainers came out with just about as much of their own brand of shite. They are all culpable.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

That’s not what I believe but that was the extent of the trade debate prior to the referendum. That and instant mass unemployment and depression following a leave vote.

Never was it suggested that voting for Brexit meant no deal with the EU.

Just like when we voted to enter the common market we were never asked options of political union. Now when being asked about leaving a political union we will be yanked from a common trading block.

The whole thing is a shambles.

There's a bit of mythologising going on here.

 

All the fundamental political structures of the EU - the Council, the Commission, the Parliament - existed before 1973 and the UK joined them all in 1973.  We all signed up to the 1957 Treaty of Rome, with its aspirations for "ever closer union".  That's what the 1975 Referendum was fought on and "Remain" won.

[Anny Road]

I wasn’t around then but it was never about political union. Closer ties and trade but not political economic and legal union.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

In fairness mate the remainers came out with just about as much of their own brand of shite. They are all culpable.

Not equally so.  The Leave campaign was "dishonesty on an industrial scale".  They lied about the economy; the constitution; the law; immigration... they even lied about their own campaign spending.

 

[AngryOfTuebrook]

I wasn’t around then but it was never about political union. Closer ties and trade but not political economic and legal union.

Go on, then.  What's the fundamental difference?  What "political union" has taken place since 1975 that was not debated then?

[Anny Road]

https://fullfact.org/europe/ask-full-fact-eu-then-and-now/

 

During the 1975 campaign, membership of the European Community was presented by both the government and the Conservative opposition as relevant to peace, security, and both regional and international development, as well as to trade and economic cooperation.

 

In 1975 the government set out the aims of the European Community as bringing “together the peoples of Europe”, raising living standards and improving working conditions, promoting growth and boosting world trade. They also set out that the EC would “help the poorest regions of Europe and the rest of the world” and “help maintain peace and freedom”.

 

In their October 1974 manifesto, the Conservative party outlined the two key ideas behind the EEC as being to maintain security within Europe and to allow European influence in the world, and control over its own affairs, to grow in a world of polarised superpowers.

 

The “Yes” and “No” campaigns talked about other issues too

 

The “Yes” campaign of 1975 also presented the debate as being about a range of issues, from jobs security to world peace and the Commonwealth.

 

One “Yes” campaign claim which with the benefit of hindsight we can say was not true, was that English common law would not be affected by staying in the European Community. We now know that EU law has a significant effect on UK law.

 

Meanwhile the official “No” campaign warned of the risk to sovereignty, jobs and food prices. They also raised the issue of lesser trade with the Commonwealth if the UK voted to stay in the European Community and told voters that it would be best for peace, stability and independence if they voted to leave.

 

Immigration was not mentioned by either campaign in their official leaflets.

 

The EU today is larger than the European Community in 1975

 

The EU has grown from 9 European Community member countries in 1975 to 28 today.

 

Of the five main institutions which run the EU today, four were in place by 1975: the European Parliament, the Council of the European Union, the European Commission and the Court of Justice. Other bodies have been added since, including the European Council which defines the political direction and agenda of the EU.

 

The EU covers more policy areas than the European Community in 1975

 

In 1975 the aims of the European Community largely concerned trade. The Treaty of Rome set these out and they relate to policies such as free movement, removing tariffs and the creation of the Common Agricultural Policy.

 

This shift in priorities is emphasised when EU spending is examined. The proportion of the EU budget going towards the Common Agricultural Policy has decreased since the 1975 referendum, from 72% in 1975 to 39% in 2014.

 

However, the European Community also aimed to promote collaboration between member states by improving living and working conditions across Europe and encouraging international development.

 

Since 1975, the UK has signed up to five more “main treaties” which have extended the powers of what became the European Community and then the EU. Every EU country, including the UK, agreed to these.

 

The EU now has “competences” or powers in a wider range of policies including consumer protection, energy and climate change, security and crime. In some areas the EU’s powers are exclusive, while in others they are shared with, or support, member states’ decisions.

 

British ministers have fewer opportunities to veto European legislation

 

In 1975 the Government argued that the British representatives on the Council of Ministers could veto any European legislation considered to be against the UK’s interests. The voting rules have been changed since then, removing the veto in certain cases. So this is less likely to be the case now.

 

The UK’s share of the vote in the Council of Ministers (now known as the Council of the European Union) has also declined since 1975 from 17% to 8%, and will be back up to 13% under a new system. However, even when decisions do not require unanimous approval it is unlikely that a decision the UK is very opposed to would get as far as a vote.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

So, not the fundamental difference between a 1970s trading bloc and a 21st Century political union that you seemed to be claiming.

[Anny Road]

I’m not claiming anything I wasn’t around in 1975 and I doubt you were either so to pontificate on the prevailing mood of the voters is pointless.

Do I want to be in the EU now? No.

Do I want to trade with them? Yes.

[Guest]

I have no clue whatsoever how politics works and I didn't vote on the EU situation. But I can definitely see this carrying on with no resolution into a General Election and basically one party saying "in" and the other saying "out". Then the party that wins the General Election with their "in" or "out" will then "shake it all about".