What's your opinion of Brendan Rodgers?

[Ted]

Still love him. Still hope he continues turning it round and we start pummeling teams again. Still can't be arsed with a new manager coming in and the cycle being repeated.

 

UP THE REDS

[FrenchEyeGlass]

if brendan wants to win things with us he needs to be good in the transfer market.

 

so far he has been the shite side of mediocre.

 

he has been a great coach though. still, that will only get you so far.

[Stu Monty]

I haven't see much of that personally, and I disagree with it if it happens, I've never had a problem with Rodgers, I think he's a worthy Liverpool manager unlike Hodgeson, he's respectful to the club's traditions and I respect him, but some of the shit that gets spouted on his behalf is beyond the pale. 

 

There's about half a dozen posters who religiously release the hounds against any negative posts about Rodgers pretty much regardless, regular as clockwork and always with the same arguments. 

 

There's loads that someone who's behind Rodgers could come out with in his defense. Played great football last season, nearly won the league, got he best out of Suarez, developed Sterling brilliantly, they're all major feathers in his cap. 

 

But it never stops there, it becomes 'who else could we have signed instead of Balotelli? Who would you have signed?' 

 

'We don't have the financial clout of Chelsea'

 

'We didn't get abjectly humiliated in Europe'

 

'It was only a 1-0 defeat, not a bad result considering'

 

'You're an impatient fan, I can't get my head around why you'd say the things you're saying'. 

 

There's points on both sides, but the above arguments are patronising and plain bollocks,. If I wanted to discuss why I don't rate Rodgers on some aspects, I'd discuss him on those aspects, I'd say he's got questionable transfer judgement or defensive coaching skills, I'd back them up with evidence or at least say why I was leaning in that direction, I wouldn't try and convince you that something you'd seen with your own eyes didn't happen.

 

'

 

I presume this is aimed at me, given I was the person who pointed out that the team wasn't "taken apart at the joints" in Europe. I also pointed out that your view that the team last season would have been taken apart in Europe being proven this season made little sense, as the team wasn't the same team. You ignored both and just, as above, made out people are in some way being fanatical about criticism of the manager. Very few are. I'm certainly not. 

 

There's no "religiously releasing the hounds" just people pointing out other people posting things that aren't very sensible. 

 

Ignoring the posts directly and then doing a "There are some posters on here..." thing is deeply, deeply irritating.

[Kevin D]

Well from August until late December this year that superb team spirit appeared to take a holiday, because not only was the football awful, but the team itself were playing like a bunch of strangers who didn't know each other, and the ship looked rudderless with the manager attempting ever more desperate tactics. So if the team spirit can desert us so easily, can it really be described as superb?

 

While Rodgers certainly improved Henderson and Sterling, it was noteworthy that both they and other players in the team responded to Suarez and he to them. The loss of Suarez seemed to hit them hard. That's not to deny any credit to Rodgers, but we should be careful of overstating it as well, as I beleive playing with great players also helps players improve their game.

 

If you want to dismiss what ex-players have to say feel free. I won't. And I won't  because there is ample evidence to show that Rodgers does play a favourites game, and does take against players who displease him in some way, or who he doesn't seem to want play. For periods both Can and Sakho have found themselves in the wilderness while Lovren was given free reign to cause havoc in the defence of a weekly basis. I'm sure Borini will tell you what it's like to be frozen out. Balotelli is an idiot, but going to war with him in the press isn't the best idea.

 

Coupled with how long it took him to get on board with how a DM would improve our defence in an attacking system (something he publicly poo poohed) then people are going to have reservations. That's not to say he shouldn't get credit, for instance:

 

1. Last season he got the team playing in a the second half of the season in an amazing run in of wins. I actually felt sorry for him that he didn't get backed in the January window when it was evident we needed some extra players we could use to give our regulars a rest or change it if se needed it - and that, in part, cost us the title;

 

2. He's dedicated to attacking football which has seen us play some wonderful football;

 

3. While sometimes he's stubborn and blinkered, he does eventually get there in the end. I have been concerned that for all the attacking prowess it would get us nowhere unless we could defend. I'm not giving him any credit for a DM because it was obvious we needed one. But credit is due for switching to a back three, dumping Lovren, and putting Can and Sakho in there. A risky move, but one which has allowed us to use Moreno and Markovic in a more effective way, and which can accomodte a move centrally from Sterling now that Sturridge is back. The side now looks more balanced than it's ever been under his tenure;

 

4. Huge credit for Sterling's Christmas holiday. The lad was jaded and now looks a new player;

 

5. I think he took the Gerrard situation out of the hierarchy's hands. It was a conversation that needed to happen and I think he's handled it well;

 

So, contrary to what some seem to think, I've not championed him being sacked at all, but like Stringvest I felt he needed to put right what was going wrong and should be judged at the end of the season. I still do have reservations about some of his management of players, and the transfer situation - especially after Balotelli which has now become a debacle.

 

But this brings me around to what I originally posted yesterday. I don't like him. Brendan Rodgers the man. The person. I think he is disingenuous. And I stand by my reasons for that. And that's why I'll never have any affection for him.

 

But I am adult enough to seperate the man from the manager. And if he manages well then he should stay in position, and if he does lead us back to winning ways then I'lI give him the credit for it, and will happily support him staying in his post.

 

If that makes me an Agenda Monkey, or a 'character,' then so be it.

 

Right, I'm off to get some breakfast. I haven't written that much since I had exams....

Fuck off back to Redcafe.

[s(k)aturation]

Anubis in "I'm a Manc" shocker.

[s(k)aturation]

I presume this is aimed at me, given I was the person who pointed out that the team wasn't "taken apart at the joints" in Europe. I also pointed out that your view that the team last season would have been taken apart in Europe being proven this season made little sense, as the team wasn't the same team. You ignored both and just, as above, made out people are in some way being fanatical about criticism of the manager. Very few are. I'm certainly not. 

 

There's no "religiously releasing the hounds" just people pointing out other people posting things that aren't very sensible. 

 

Ignoring the posts directly and then doing a "There are some posters on here..." thing is deeply, deeply irritating.

 

In fairness, Stu, I reckon a couple of the points Section made might have been aimed at you.

But I think you'd be a long way down the list of posters he was implying in his overall point.

 

I do sometimes think the "defence" of Brendan can appear evangelical and patronising in discussions on here.  Just as, and certainly as much as, "criticisms" of him may appear not to be "very sensible".

 

At the risk of my lacking specificity.

[Guest Numero Veinticinco]

Yes and if I recall in his 3rd he won the league after steadily improving

Difference being he had one big spender in his league, not three. It wasn't until he had to sell his best players that it became more difficult. The major obstacle for Rodgers has been losing the best attacking partnership in Europe from last season.

[Major Tom]

In fairness, Stu, I reckon a couple of the points Section made might have been aimed at you.

But I think you'd be a long way down the list of posters he was implying in his overall point.

 

I do sometimes think the "defence" of Brendan can appear evangelical and patronising in discussions on here. Just as, and certainly as much as, "criticisms" of him may appear not to be "very sensible".

 

At the risk of my lacking specificity.

Seriously, Skaro, point me to a poster who defends Rodgers evangelically.

 

Anyone defending Rodgers in this thread simply seems to be adding context to some of the ridiculous criticisms levelled at him.

 

That's all Stu and Robbie are doing. That's all I'm doing. Ratcatcher gets a little feisty but that's all he's doing as well. I am sure we are all posters Section was referring to.

 

Where are your evangelical defenders?

[Anubis]

Fuck off back to Redcafe.

 

I'm the new emissary. Franchester has been recalled.

[Tyler Durden]

Difference being he had one big spender in his league, not three. It wasn't until he had to sell his best players that it became more difficult. The major obstacle for Rodgers has been losing the best attacking partnership in Europe from last season.

Yea well it's not like he wasn't expecting to at least lose half that strike force and should of mitigated for it by improving the defence,he had enough money, but it's something he hasn't got in his locker so cost us earlier in the season while he fumbled to make the attack work again.

 

He seems to have have done it now and Sturridge coming back will only help that but if he gets injured again I don't think we'll have a chance of top 4 and to be honest that's what his goal should be, he has failed for me if it isn't acheived

[s(k)aturation]

Seriously, Skaro, point me to a poster who defends Rodgers evangelically.

 

Anyone defending Rodgers in this thread simply seems to be adding context to some of the ridiculous criticisms levelled at him.

 

That's all Stu and Robbie are doing. That's all I'm doing. Ratcatcher gets a little feisty but that's all he's doing as well. I am sure we are all posters Section was referring to.

 

Where are your evangelical defenders?

 

I was merely trying to point out a two-way street.

Of both good and bad. 

Section, Anubis, me, you, Stu, Robbie - none wants Rodgers sacked from what I can tell.

Some love him, some like him, some don't, some are indifferent. I don't think I've seen any realistic hate.

Some criticise him, some defend him.

 

So, just as some of the criticism can annoy others, so can some of the defending.

I just get the impression the defending side seems to think it is always in the ascendancy, when it's probably a lot more subjective and debatable than that.

 

I think there are some articulate critics of Rodgers, and I think people are entitled to even say they don't like him. I also think there are some articulate defenders of Rodgers and, even if its only on the basis that they like him, that's fair enough too.

 

If it's possible to have "ridiculous" criticisms of Rodgers, then it's also possible to have "ridiculous" defence of him.

 

As long as we acknowledge that both can/have occurred, then we have a two-way street, a level debating field.

 

Abuse of him, of course, is totally wrong.

 

Oh, and jokes, sarcasm, a bit of bollocks should be allowed too.

[stringvest]

People getting under each others' skin (having different opinions) all over the shop.

 

It's an absolute outrage.  

 

People can be as wrong as they want to be; it's when they're boring people get miffed.  And by crikey a few have crossed that line some time ago.  

[Major Tom]

I was merely trying to point out a two-way street.

Of both good and bad. 

Section, Anubis, me, you, Stu, Robbie - none wants Rodgers sacked from what I can tell.

Some love him, some like him, some don't, some are indifferent. I don't think I've seen any realistic hate.

Some criticise him, some defend him.

 

So, just as some of the criticism can annoy others, so can some of the defending.

I just get the impression the defending side seems to think it is always in the ascendancy, when it's probably a lot more subjective and debatable than that.

 

I think there are some articulate critics of Rodgers, and I think people are entitled to even say they don't like him. I also think there are some articulate defenders of Rodgers and, even if its only on the basis that they like him, that's fair enough too.

 

If it's possible to have "ridiculous" criticisms of Rodgers, then it's also possible to have "ridiculous" defence of him.

 

As long as we acknowledge that both can/have occurred, then we have a two-way street, a level debating field.

 

Abuse of him, of course, is totally wrong.

 

Oh, and jokes, sarcasm, a bit of bollocks should be allowed too.

 

Yep, I have no problems with anything you have said there. It's all about opinions but, as I said, some of them aired on here seem to lack perspective and context and it's those ones that I, personally, respond to.

 

If people don't like Rodgers, I have no issues with that. How can I? But some of the criticism of a Liverpool manager from Liverpool fans, I find over the top and without basis. Saying that, he's made mistakes, and is still making them, but what manager doesn't?

 

But I'll say it again, as we both agree, it's all about opinions.

[Guest Numero Veinticinco]

Yea well it's not like he wasn't expecting to at least lose half that strike force

That's not much to do with what we were talking about, though. It feels to me that you don't like the manager and are searching for ways to have a bit of a dig. Once one avenue closes, just go down another. Replacing Suarez isn't a 'click your fingers and make it happen' type of thing. Should we have done better? Yes, I think so. It's not just on Rodgers, but he's partly responsible. What he can't do is completely soften the blow of losing a genuinely world class attack. We're improving, but it hurt us.

 

Going back to one of my favourite managers, Kloppo, he has suffered from the same things Rodgers has suffered with. I totally get the argument that he has won things so gets me time and trust, but he has had seven years there and it's only now that he has lost his best players that he is struggling. These young managers deserve patience. To keep chopping and changing will just set us back further. Rodgers has a good attacking ethos, he has got the side looking much more solid, and we're looking up again, four points from fourth with 45 points to play for. It's a dangerous cycle this 'throw him out at the first sign of trouble' stance. It's about what he has in his locker, his vision for the future, and what he has shown already.

[stringvest]

That's not much to do with what we were talking about, though. It feels to me that you don't like the manager and are searching for ways to have a bit of a dig. Once one avenue closes, just go down another. Replacing Suarez isn't a 'click your fingers and make it happen' type of thing. Should we have done better? Yes, I think so. It's not just on Rodgers, but he's partly responsible. What he can't do is completely soften the blow of losing a genuinely world class attack. We're improving, but it hurt us.

 

Going back to one of my favourite managers, Kloppo, he has suffered from the same things Rodgers has suffered with. I totally get the argument that he has won things so gets me time and trust, but he has had seven years there and it's only now that he has lost his best players that he is struggling. These young managers deserve patience. To keep chopping and changing will just set us back further. Rodgers has a good attacking ethos, he has got the side looking much more solid, and we're looking up again, four points from fourth with 45 points to play for. It's a dangerous cycle this 'throw him out at the first sign of trouble' stance. It's about what he has in his locker, his vision for the future, and what he has shown already.

 

Broadly agree NV.  But I'm not sure about buying into a vision, because let's be frank, no-one really has a clue what that is, unless you're talking about the notion of the high press.  Would you be sure, for example, what his favoured formation is, or whether he even has one?  I like managers to be pragmatic in order to get the best of out of the players they have, and not to be slave to one particular system.  Rodgers has shown - of late - a willingness to adapt in order to try to achieve that, so that's a plus point for him.  

[Major Tom]

That's not much to do with what we were talking about, though. It feels to me that you don't like the manager and are searching for ways to have a bit of a dig. Once one avenue closes, just go down another. Replacing Suarez isn't a 'click your fingers and make it happen' type of thing. Should we have done better? Yes, I think so. It's not just on Rodgers, but he's partly responsible. What he can't do is completely soften the blow of losing a genuinely world class attack. We're improving, but it hurt us.

 

Going back to one of my favourite managers, Kloppo, he has suffered from the same things Rodgers has suffered with. I totally get the argument that he has won things so gets me time and trust, but he has had seven years there and it's only now that he has lost his best players that he is struggling. These young managers deserve patience. To keep chopping and changing will just set us back further. Rodgers has a good attacking ethos, he has got the side looking much more solid, and we're looking up again, four points from fourth with 45 points to play for. It's a dangerous cycle this 'throw him out at the first sign of trouble' stance. It's about what he has in his locker, his vision for the future, and what he has shown already.

 

Bravo.

 

And that guy, Kloppo, sounds like a good manager.

[Guest Numero Veinticinco]

Broadly agree NV.  But I'm not sure about buying into a vision, because let's be frank, no-one really has a clue what that is, unless you're talking about the notion of the high press.  Would you be sure, for example, what his favoured formation is, or whether he even has one?

Formation, for me, is absolutely irrelevant. I think the manager feels that way, too. I'm talking about a manager, unlike Houllier or Benitez (both managers I like a lot), with an attacking philosophy, with work ethic high on the list, bringing young exciting players to the club, quick and direct, etc. Those things need to run through the side no matter what the formation is. He did that really long sit down with fan sites - including Dave from here, I think - where he spoke about all that stuff. I'm sold on that vision.

 

Does he get that right every time? No. We're not seen a side that does it season in and season out yet. My argument is that we're two full seasons into the project, which was a bit derailed by the loss of our two best players, but I think we've seen the side develop over this season, even without Suarez and Sturridge, to the point where we were the form side bringing back a top striker.

 

I like managers to be pragmatic in order to get the best of out of the players they have, and not to be slave to one particular system.  Rodgers has shown - of late - a willingness to adapt in order to try to achieve that, so that's a plus point for him.

I'd say his style of play has been running through everything, regardless of 3-4-3 this season or 4-3-3 last season. That's the thing I'm talking about, the style and the general approach to football. That's why I like Kloppo, too. The hard work, the work ethic, the pressing, the attacking style. I think Klopp is the real deal, and I think Rodgers is too. I can't really get passed that. I like him for what he brings. It's not really about 'liking' the man, but what he's doing is, in my view, the right thing for us to be successful. It nearly paid off last season, and I think it'll pay of in the next few. If it doesn't, fair enough; we'll have to look at it then.

[Guest Numero Veinticinco]

Bravo.

 

And that guy, Kloppo, sounds like a good manager.

He was always the less famous of the two, but ever since his brother went into the clown game, Kloppo has really come into his own.

[Hades]

If Gerrard, Lovren, Allen, Johnson and Jones hadn't gotten injured they'd still be stinking the place out. That's why I can't credit Rodgers despite his ability to get a team passing well. Most of the good he has done is when he has a very narrow focus with no rotation or preparing for European matches. It's a huge question mark for me and essential for a Liverpool manager.

[Guest Numero Veinticinco]

1) Gerrard isn't injured and wasn't playing anyway - hence fucking off.

2) Allen is quality

3) Anybody who used 'stinking the place out' but isn't an American teenager gets an automatic neg. Just the way it is, sorry.

[Hades]

Have a revenge neg.

[Guest Numero Veinticinco]

Have a revenge neg.

You're a vicious little cunt, Hades. I'll give you that.

 

 

 

 

 

[stringvest]

Formation, for me, is absolutely irrelevant. I think the manager feels that way, too. I'm talking about a manager, unlike Houllier or Benitez (both managers I like a lot), with an attacking philosophy, with work ethic high on the list, bringing young exciting players to the club, quick and direct, etc. Those things need to run through the side no matter what the formation is. He did that really long sit down with fan sites - including Dave from here, I think - where he spoke about all that stuff. I'm sold on that vision.

 

Does he get that right every time? No. We're not seen a side that does it season in and season out yet. My argument is that we're two full seasons into the project, which was a bit derailed by the loss of our two best players, but I think we've seen the side develop over this season, even without Suarez and Sturridge, to the point where we were the form side bringing back a top striker.

 

 

I'd say his style of play has been running through everything, regardless of 3-4-3 this season or 4-3-3 last season. That's the thing I'm talking about, the style and the general approach to football. That's why I like Kloppo, too. The hard work, the work ethic, the pressing, the attacking style. I think Klopp is the real deal, and I think Rodgers is too. I can't really get passed that. I like him for what he brings. It's not really about 'liking' the man, but what he's doing is, in my view, the right thing for us to be successful. It nearly paid off last season, and I think it'll pay of in the next few. If it doesn't, fair enough; we'll have to look at it then.

 

Surely every manager would want to instil hard work/work ethic?  You're right about the inconsistency - one of the key features of our disappointing first half of the season was the lack of hard work and pressing in the team, allied to the lack of movement high up the pitch when we were in possession, meant we were anything but direct and attacking - we were ponderous and predictable - and we let that style of play persist for too long by using the wrong players and often in the wrong positions.  We have certainly improved in terms of pressing and intensity over the last month - we need to see this reflected in a consistent set of good results.  In many ways, I preferred the way we played on Saturday to a lot of last season.  We weren't incessantly pressing, with the inherent risks that brings, we actually defended well when the midfield and forward areas weren't functioning at their best in the first half.  As I said in the match thread, it was much more of an 'old school' performance in many respects, and all the better for it.  

[s(k)aturation]

Most of the good he has done is when he has a very narrow focus with no rotation or preparing for European matches.

 

This is a fair statement I think.

His zenith so far has been when he had a smaller squad and no Europe.

I think there is quality in the squad purchases, but I would have preferred 3 or 4 real guns rather than all the "potential" in buying, what was it, 7 players.

 

I'll admit though, mine is an impatient, shorter-term outlook than some.

[Guest Numero Veinticinco]

Surely every manager would want to instil hard work/work ethic?

I think it's different with some managers. The amount of work we do pressing, covering, making runs, etc, is right up there. A lot of sides don't do that. It's more than just work ethic, perhaps. It's a real drive. The best sides have it. I think some managers get it out of players, and some don't.

 

As for the rest of your post, it's dead clear that we've needed to improve from the start of the season, that we need to keep pushing forward. My point was - at least in the post you originally quoted - that we should be sticking with Rodgers for this. That changing now would be folly. Stick with what we've got because he has shown, in my view at least, very positive signs. A dodgy half season after the loss of Sturridge and Suarez isn't going to derail my pro-Rodgers train. I think there's enough to be positive about to give him - at the very, very least - another transfer window and another season. The alternative is knock everything down and go again. There's going to come a time when you're just kicking through rubble talking about building a skyscraper.