Tendulkar v Ponting v Lara

[lifetime fan]

Where does Sachin Tendulkar rank among the sporting greats?

 

There is something faintly absurd about journalists ranking the deeds of our finest sportsmen and women: who am I, to whom greatness is a stranger, to judge greatness in others?

 

And how 'great', really, is someone who happens to have been conferred with the talent of ball control? Nelson Mandela-great?  Give me a break.

Yet there was lionisation of gladiators in ancient Rome and wrestlers in ancient Greece, suggesting it is inherent in humans to be awed by the athletic prowess of others.

 

No pub bores back in Neolithic times, but there were probably caves full of blokes arguing over who was the greatest tree-climber ever. Even Mandela, usually taken up with more cerebral matters, admits one of his biggest heroes is Muhammad Ali.

 

So, let's have it then: as he announces he will retire from cricket next month after his 200th Test, how great is Sachin Tendulkar?

To answer that question, it is necessary to define sporting greatness. Then we must address how closely Tendulkar fits each component part of that definition. Don't worry, this isn't a university thesis, but Tendulkar hagiographies will be everywhere in the coming days and weeks.

 

When Andrew Flintoff retired from cricket in 2009  arguments raged in the media and in pubs across the land as to whether he was great or not. Some said not, because the first component part of greatness is cold hard statistics.

 

In 79 Tests and 141 one-day internationals, Flintoff scored eight centuries and took five five-wicket hauls, and never a 10-for. South Africa's Jacques Kallis  has to date played 162 Tests and 321 ODIs, scoring 61 centuries and taking seven five-wicket hauls. In addition, his bowling average in Tests is better than Flintoff's (the Englishman's ODI bowling average is, admittedly, markedly lower).

 

If a great cricketer is someone whose numbers are comparatively better than all or almost all of his contemporaries, then Kallis qualifies. Flintoff does not. Tendulkar, meanwhile, has scored 29 more tons than the next highest century-maker in international cricket, Ricky Ponting, which puts the Indian out on his own. Miles out, in fact, just like Don Bradman's vertiginous batting average. 

 

Flintoff was a cricketer who occasionally did great things, which is different from being a truly great cricketer. Which takes us to our next component parts of greatness - longevity and consistency of performance.

 

To score 100 international centuries, it was necessary for Tendulkar to be at the top of the game for 24 years, which in any sport is extraordinary. In that time, at least until his struggles of the past two seasons, he has suffered nary a blip. He had a rough time in Tests in 2006, but the following year he scored 776 runs at an average of 55.4. Not much of a blip.

 

Paul Gascoigne had more talent in his big toe than most England footballers playing today. But truly great? It is difficult to countenance the idea - too few highlights, far too many lows.

 

John Daly  has won two majors in golf, but only one tournament since claiming the Open Championship in 1995. Does that make him a better golfer than Colin Montgomerie, who has 40 professional wins to his name, but none of them a major? And if so, does it follow that Daly is necessarily a great? Again, many would say no.

 

Longevity was a big part of Ali's greatness - he won Olympic gold in 1960 and regained the heavyweight world title 18 years later. Mike Tyson,  past his best at the age of 24, did not even make venerable boxing historian Bert Sugar's all-time heavyweight top 10. 

 

Sugar, meanwhile, had Britain's Lennox Lewis down at 18 in his list. This is frankly bizarre, but I can understand his thinking: Lewis's achievements, Sugar would no doubt have argued, were diminished by a lack of competition. Competition and rivalry are also significant factors when it comes to measuring greatness.

 

Roger Federer and Rafael Nadal are considered by some to be the two greatest tennis players of all time, in large part because they have amassed 30 Grand Slam titles between them. But also because they have amassed those titles by having to beat each other on a regular basis.

 

In Tendulkar's first Test, against Pakistan in Karachi in 1989, the 16-year-old faced fearsome pace duo Wasim Akram and Waqar Younis and he played during the last flourishing of great West Indian quicks.

 

Against Australia, the world's best team for most of Tendulkar's career, he averaged 45 in ODIs and 55 in Tests. Like Federer and Nadal, he thrived against the best.

 

Tendulkar 'only' won one World Cup (in 2011) but a better gauge of the greatness of team players is how they perform as individuals on the biggest stage. In that respect, Tendulkar is peerless. In six World Cups, Tendulkar has scored the most runs (2,278), most centuries (six), most 50+ scores (21) and the most runs in a single tournament (673 in 2003).

 

When it comes to judging greatness, aesthetic considerations are secondary to numbers. But ask a Brian Lara devotee why they believe their hero to be greater than Tendulkar and there is a chance they will mention that majestic cover-drive of his, like honey dripping off the back of a spoon.

Lara, an alchemist like Ali, transformed sport into epic poetry. Tendulkar, meanwhile, dealt mainly in prose. But anyone who fails to appreciate that timed on-drive of Tendulkar's has a small piece of their heart missing, by definition.

 

Last, it is necessary to look at how Tendulkar went about his business - the manner in which he achieved what he did, temperamentally rather than aesthetically speaking.

 

Some believe Tiger Woods has tarnished his greatness with his personal travails,  surly bearing and spitting and cursing on the golf course. And there are those who think Tom Watson,  for example, is the greater golfer because of his more dignified nature.

 

Tendulkar is more Watson than Woods. During three decades at the pinnacle of his sport, under the glare of more than a billion countrymen, there has been barely a hint of controversy. Indeed, some would argue he has been a little bit dull, that a bit of off-field strife or outspokenness would have made him a more engaging figure.

 

But it is impossible to imagine the pressure Tendulkar was under. As the signs at his home ground in Mumbai say: "If cricket is a religion, then Sachin is God." The poor bloke had enough on his plate without inviting more attention, and perhaps only Manny Pacquiao, whose fights stop wars in his native Philippines,  can truly empathise.

 

Ask a member of England's Rugby World Cup-winning side of 2003 who the most important member of the team was and there is a good chance he will say Richard Hill.  Hill is a bona fide great, but he is fortunate in that he can stroll round his local supermarket and hardly anyone will recognise him.

 

The true greats - the really, really, really great - transcend their sports, become almost god-like. And gods don't go to the supermarket for their shopping.

Tendulkar, a legend in his own career, is on the top table, up there with Tiger and Michael Jordan and Pele. Not the greatest, though - I'm with Mandela, that simply has to be Ali, the greatest great there has ever been and probably ever will be.

 

 

 

Tendulkar in numbers

 

Test matches (198)

He has scored 15,837 runs at an average of 53.86, hitting 51 tons and 67 half centuries. His top score was an unbeaten 248 against Bangladesh in Dhaka in December 2004

One-day internationals (463)

He has scored 18,426 runs at an average of 44.83 and a strike rate of 86.23. He has scored 49 centuries (highest score 200) and 96 fifties

Twenty20 internationals

He only made one international appearance in the shortest form of the game, scoring 12 from 15 balls against South Africa in Johannesburg in December 2006

[Stickman]

Good article .....but I'd put Nicklaus above Woods......and agree Ali is the greatest.

[lifetime fan]

Sachin Tendulkar to play 200th Test at home ground

India legend Sachin Tendulkar has got his wish to play his 200th and final Test at his home ground in Mumbai.

The 40-year-old former captain announced his decision to retire from all forms of cricket last week.

 

The Wankhede Stadium, where he made his first class debut in 1988, will host the second match of the two-Test series against West Indies from 14 November.

 

His mother, who has never seen her son play an international match during his 24-year career, is expected to attend.

 

Tendulkar is the highest scorer in both Tests and one-day internationals, with 15,837 runs in 198 Tests and 18,426 runs in 463 ODIs.

He made his international debut aged 16 in November 1989 and last year became the only batsman in the history of the game to score 100 international centuries.

 

The Board of Control for Cricket in India (BCCI) squeezed the home series into the schedule to allow Tendulkar to retire in front of his home fans.

 

The first time Tendulkar played at the Wankhede, he became, at the age of 15, the youngest Indian to score a century on his first-class debut.

In his last Test against the West Indies at the ground, Ravi Rampaul denied him a century by dismissing him for 94.

 

Eden Gardens in Kolkata will host the opening match of the series from 6-10 November.

[Yozzer]

If Tendulkar scores a century in either of those games there will most likely be riots in the stands. I'll definitely be tuning in.

[A_S]

I'm seriously going to ask if Virat Kohli will be part of this discussion once he retires. He could be awesome. He has 19 international centuries and he is yet to turn 25 FFS. He's going to town on the Aussie bowlers trying to chase down the small matter of 359. Doing a fair fucking job too, 1-230 after 32 overs.

 

For the record, you just can't ignore Tendulkar scoring runs everywhere for that long.

[Jairzinho]

I'm seriously going to ask if Virat Kohli will be part of this discussion once he retires. He could be awesome. He has 19 international centuries and he is yet to turn 25 FFS. He's going to town on the Aussie bowlers trying to chase down the small matter of 359. Doing a fair fucking job too, 1-230 after 32 overs.

 

For the record, you just can't ignore Tendulkar scoring runs everywhere for that long.

 

Agreed on Kohli. Absolute class he is.

[Jairzinho]

Fucking hell. What a hundred that was.

[amli]

Lara, Ponting and Tendulkar in that order.

Lara and Ponting had the mental strength to produce the goods in tough matches and when the chips were down.

Lara had far better natural talent, was better to watch and held together a flagging Windies team.

Tendulkar always struck me as a flat track bully, ODI man and seemed to get most of his runs on the lifeless, spinning pitches of the subcontinent.

[amli]

I would refer to the Wisden greatest test innings of all time, 2 of Lara's included (a number of factors were taken into account - opposition, H/A, situation of match, other batsmens performances in the same match/series)

 

Position Name Score For Against Venue Season Wisden Rating
1 DG Bradman 270 Australia England Melbourne 1936-37 262.4
2 BC Lara 153* West Indies Australia Bridgetown 1998-99 255.2
3 GA Gooch 154* England West Indies Headingley 1991 252.0
4 IT Botham 149* England Australia Headingley 1981 240.8
5 DG Bradman 299* Australia South Africa Adelaide 1931-32 236.8
6 VVS Laxman 281 India Australia Calcutta 2000-01 234.8
7 C Hill 188 Australia England Melbourne 1897-98 234.2
8 Azhar Mahmood 132 Pakistan South Africa Durban 1997-98 232.6
9 KJ Hughes 100* Australia West Indies Melbourne 1981-82 229.7
10 BC Lara 375 West Indies England St John's 1993-94 228.1

 

 

I watched him play in a charity match before he had made his test debut (Gary Linekar played in the same match and scored a century) and his ability to find gaps in the field was only matched by Clive Lloyd by all the players I have seen play live.

[lifetime fan]

Lara, Ponting and Tendulkar in that order.

Lara and Ponting had the mental strength to produce the goods in tough matches and when the chips were down.

Lara had far better natural talent, was better to watch and held together a flagging Windies team.

Tendulkar always struck me as a flat track bully, ODI man and seemed to get most of his runs on the lifeless, spinning pitches of the subcontinent.

That's a serious amount of bollocks in not too many words.

[amli]

 

 

Sehwag is brilliant

 

 

 

He would be better with a bit of footwork.

Lack of that wouldn't work on the swinging pitches of New Zealand and England.

Ask Mr Sidhu who bullied everyone on the dust bowls of the Reliance World Cup of '88 and the home series against England in '93, but only scored 263 runs in 12 test innings in New Zealand and England.

Sehwag averages 27.8 in England and 20.0 in NZ.

On the other hand he averages 91.5 in Pak, 72.88 in Sri Lanka and 83.42 at home in India.

I suggest you take a look at the context of a batsman smashing a ball before you label him brilliant.

[amli]

That's a serious amount of bollocks in not too many words.

 

Care to elaborate?

[lifetime fan]

Not really. Not much to say when you've labelled him a 'flat track bully'.

[amli]

Not really. Not much to say when you've labelled him a 'flat track bully'.

 

Thats your elaboration?

You can refer to the Wisden greatest innings list and Sehwags and Sidhus averages to fight your corner.

A simple bollocks to you reply and a neg seems a bit wimpy for me.

[Jose Jones]

Care to elaborate?

 

Check out Tendulkar's average against Australia in Australia for one.

[lifetime fan]

Thats your elaboration?

You can refer to the Wisden greatest innings list and Sehwags and Sidhus averages to fight your corner.

A simple bollocks to you reply and a neg seems a bit wimpy for me.

I told you I didn't really care to elaborate.

[amli]

I told you I didn't really care to elaborate.

 

Poor

[lifetime fan]

Poor

Piss, yes.

[Jose Jones]

Check out Tendulkar's average against Australia in Australia for one.

 

Here's a clue.  Tendulkar averages more in Australia than Ponting does.

[amli]

Ponting has 3 world cup winners medals.

[Jose Jones]

Ponting has 3 world cup winners medals.

 

I thought part of your argument was that Tendulkar is partly seen as a legend because of his one day record?

In which he has scored more runs, centuries and has a higher average than Ponting.

You are all over the shop.

[Jairzinho]

Lara, Ponting and Tendulkar in that order.

Lara and Ponting had the mental strength to produce the goods in tough matches and when the chips were down.

Lara had far better natural talent, was better to watch and held together a flagging Windies team.

Tendulkar always struck me as a flat track bully, ODI man and seemed to get most of his runs on the lifeless, spinning pitches of the subcontinent.

 

That might be the most wrong post on the internet. Good going considering Code has posted about 20000 times on this forum.

[amli]

Big Match Player

 

World Cup Finals -

 

Ponting

 

'99 24 of 27 balls

'03 140n.o. off 121 balls

06/07 37 off 42 balls

 

201 off 190 balls for twice out in 3 consecutive finals won.

 

Sachin one final and scored 18 runs.

[amli]

I thought part of your argument was that Tendulkar is partly seen as a legend because of his one day record?

In which he has scored more runs, centuries and has a higher average than Ponting.

You are all over the shop.

 

Lara's played match winning innings under pressure (Wisden seem to agree) and Ponting win 3 World cups, one as MotM (140n.o. off 121 balls - strange can't recall Sachin producing that in a pressure situation) and 2 as captain.

[Guest LFD]

Should Kallis be in this conversation?  He's got a better Test average at 56, than Tendulkar, Ponting and Lara - batting in the same era.