So....

[Mathewbet1]

Are you a liverpool fan?

[joe_fishfish]

In Klopp's last season at Dortmund they were dominating games in midfield and being let down by a combination of shit finishing (eg. from Immobile) and even worse goalkeeping (Weidenfeller was never great but he fell off a cliff that season).

 

I don't think we have the same problems. None of our players look fit. They look knackered. Out worked and out sprinted in every game we've played. Basic obvious errors creeping in, players messing up touches and passes that should be second nature. That's not world class players turning into David Ngog and Paul Konchesky overnight, that's fatigue, mental and physical.

 

We messed up our fitness / conditioning work in preseason, injured a load of players, and exhausted everyone else. Now we can't seem to recuperate because no one can be rested or rotated, as the replacements are unavailable. Add in Mane leaving - a world class player who was never ever injured and dug us out of the shit repeatedly during his time here - and Thiago barely kicking a ball for us yet and here we are.

 

Alisson is still absolutely fucking excellent, but other than him, we need to go back to the drawing board.

[Baltar]

We need the injured players back and back quickly. Preferably before we get into a relegation battle. We'll be OK once these crocks are back. And we need those dickhead owners to do what they should have done years ago and seriously invest in this declining squad.

[Tony Moanero]

16 minutes ago, No2 said:

I'm going to eat a pack of biscuits. 

More information, please.

[Creator Supreme]

3 minutes ago, Baltar said:

Preferably before we get into a relegation battle.

Not beyond the realms of possibility!

[an tha]

12 minutes ago, Baltar said:

We need the injured players back and back quickly. Preferably before we get into a relegation battle. We'll be OK once these crocks are back. And we need those dickhead owners to do what they should have done years ago and seriously invest in this declining squad.

For now if we can get Thiago, Fabinho and probably Arthur out on the park for most games - maybe they can stop the bleeding.

 

The problem is what happens as soon as one is injured or we have to rest one?

 

Henderson is out for a while again

 

Jones same

 

Keita waste of space out a while again

 

Oxlade as above

 

Milner just not up to it now

 

Elliott - i like the lad - But for me as a midfielder in our system he is not physical enough, can't really press and clearly can't do enough to help full back out - it just isn't his game...

 

The options are just so sparse.

 

Maybe this Bajectic lad is worth a go?

[No2]

7 minutes ago, Tony Moanero said:

More information, please.

Cup of tea and kimberley coconut creams.

[Section_31]

The saddest thing about this season so far is that they seemingly can't be arsed.

 

Not turning up against the mancs or everton when you play for Liverpool is fucking unforgivable.

 

One of the worst things about being a red in the last 30-odd years hasn't been losing or even being shit at times, but more the amount of spineless, can't be arsed, meandering around the pitch efforts. I thought those days were well and truly gone but they're back with a vengeance. What a shame.

[Moo]

I reckon they're exhausted, mentally and physically. They needed a boost, it didn't come.

[mike23]

24 minutes ago, joe_fishfish said:

In Klopp's last season at Dortmund they were dominating games in midfield and being let down by a combination of shit finishing (eg. from Immobile) and even worse goalkeeping (Weidenfeller was never great but he fell off a cliff that season).

 

I don't think we have the same problems. None of our players look fit. They look knackered. Out worked and out sprinted in every game we've played. Basic obvious errors creeping in, players messing up touches and passes that should be second nature. That's not world class players turning into David Ngog and Paul Konchesky overnight, that's fatigue, mental and physical.

 

We messed up our fitness / conditioning work in preseason, injured a load of players, and exhausted everyone else. Now we can't seem to recuperate because no one can be rested or rotated, as the replacements are unavailable. Add in Mane leaving - a world class player who was never ever injured and dug us out of the shit repeatedly during his time here - and Thiago barely kicking a ball for us yet and here we are.

 

Alisson is still absolutely fucking excellent, but other than him, we need to go back to the drawing board.

It's hard to escape the feeling that we completely messed up the preseason work. Just so slow and lethargic in every game with other teams doing to us what we always did to them. Even the best teams will struggle from time to time, even the best players will have dips in form, but I'm really struggling to get my head around how a team who always outworked almost every team they played are suddenly getting outworked in virtually every game. When they couldn't cope with the intensity of the laziest team in the league at Old Trafford it raised some serious concerns and none of the games since have alleviated those concerns at all.

 

 

[LFC 6 Times]

We look absolutely finished. There’s absolutely no glimmers of hope for us that I can latch onto. Van Dijk, Salah, Trent and Fabinho look like they’ve been lobotomised. Robertson looks completely out of sorts. Milner and Elliot just aren’t good enough and joe Gomez’ display worse than Lovren at Spurs in 2017.

 

 

[Tony Moanero]

29 minutes ago, No2 said:

Cup of tea and kimberley coconut creams.

These? Do you dunk them?

 

[Lee909]

Couple of big issues

.we miss out on the Champions league next year. FSG hardly likely to follow what Arsenal/Chelsea did amd start investing big to make it a blip. They're more likely to cut costs and even sell high earners. 

 

Klopp and Peps inflexibility in the formation.

We try and play the same way even when it's not going right. It's glaringly obvious to everyone that teams are exploring our right hand side and have been ever since Gini left. Trents reading of the game is terrible at times. Thing is we have seen he can defend, but he just doesn't keep switched on. 

 

Gomez has never recovered from that last knee injury. 

 

Fabinho looks either tired or old and gets no support. 

 

Hendo looked past his best before we ga e him a new long term deal, Milner should have been gone a year ago. The less said about Nabby,Ox and seemingly Jones the better. Your lucky to get half a season from the three of them. Thiago isn't far off them in terms of fitness

 

Elliot does a lot of things well but he doesn't have the pace to play wide or enough about himself at this stage to play RCM. 

 

Why not try playing a midfield with 2 players sitting. Thiago did it at Bayern plenty. Play Fabinho and Thiago/Arthur/Hendo. Give each one side of the pitch to cover. Then play Bobby or Elliot behind the front man. Get Salah/Diaz/Jota coming inside and closer to goal. 

 

Get Matip back in ASAP, he knows when to play and when not too. Virg looks far more composed next to him. 

 

Sort the right hand side out ASAP,it's costing goals every game. 

 

 

[Saintslfc13]

18 minutes ago, an tha said:

For now if we can get Thiago, Fabinho and probably Arthur out on the park for most games - maybe they can stop the bleeding.

 

The problem is what happens as soon as one is injured or we have to rest one?

 

Henderson is out for a while again

 

Jones same

 

Keita waste of space out a while again

 

Oxlade as above

 

Milner just not up to it now

 

Elliott - i like the lad - But for me as a midfielder in our system he is not physical enough, can't really press and clearly can't do enough to help full back out - it just isn't his game...

 

The options are just so sparse.

 

Maybe this Bajectic lad is worth a go?

Can't argue with much but with regards to Elliot at times he's playing two roles because our fullback is playing inside forward and pushing our highest paid attacker who's game has always been to shoot or pass the ball with his left foot out to the touchline. This means Elliot has to sit as more of DM a bit farther than we'd like him from goal but in theory still able to get forward but risking their runners going completely free onto our CB on that side, or drop back to more a fullbacks position which leaves him with fuck all chance of winning any balls that roll out to where he'd normally be playing if our midfield was working as it has in the past. For me, Elliot's damned one way or the other with how our right hand side is currently playing with one another and, whilst he might not be ready in an ideal sense of the word, he's the least of our problems over there.

I said it in the match thread, but whilst I don't think Trent in midfield is going to be some revelation, if he's going to largely ignore his defensive responsibilities then he needs to either start in midfield or be benched until he changes his mind.

[an tha]

Good summary from TIA site:

 

Midfield vacuum

A change of shape? An Arthur debut? Thiago rushed back? Nope, Jurgen opted for more of the same.

Given what has come over the last few years perhaps there’s a case to be made that it’s right to keep the faith, except for this particular issue has been responsible for many of the dropped points already and we were no closer to finding the answer here.

 

In fact, given Napoli are the most aggressive and adventurous side we’ve played this season, the problem was worse than ever – massive gaps repeatedly passed through, nobody able to get close to their metronome Lobotka and a woeful lack of physicality to keep pace with the other two.

Look, James Milner had to be replaced at the break. He should have been booked for the penalty – yes, it was obviously on purpose – and then was for scything down Anguissa. He was fortunate to not see another booking for clattering Lobotka before the interval.

We’re fortunate he got to the hour mark, in truth, when the triple sub was made and he departed. It’s harsh to hear, but Milner’s mobility, agility and technical ability is not Champions League level and unless the rest of the team is in perfect form, he’s not a player who can be carried now.

 

Yet this isn’t all down to the No7 in the slightest.

 

Fabinho was miles off it, the full-backs were abysmal again in terms of positional work and tracking, the cohesion in attack isn’t there on or off the ball. What a pretty picture it all paints.

 

 

Full article:

 

https://www.thisisanfield.com/2022/09/klopp-has-questions-to-answer-5-talking-points-from-napoli-4-1-liverpool/amp/

 

[No2]

6 minutes ago, Tony Moanero said:

These? Do you dunk them?

 

These bad boys, wouldn't be dunking ,only dip a chocolate digestive or a rich tea. 

[johnsusername]

1 hour ago, Creator Supreme said:

This is Klopp's last season at Dortmund redux!

 

He's got nothing left in his armoury, and neither have most of the players.

 

If we're lucky, we'll drift to mid-table mediocrity. Unlucky and we end up like Blackburn or Forest.

You're talking rubbish mate...

 

...Forest actually bought players in the summer. We'd never do that! 

[an tha]

Fed up with seeing how teams only need to play 1/2 passes to bypass our midfield and start running at our defence.

 

We are far too easy to play against and we were actually bound to get batteted by an energetic, pacey good team at some point - and tonight it happened.

 

Even the shite played through us with ease at the weekend at times. All I want to see for now is for us to be more compact and for us to actuallly field a midfield that offers the defence some protection and is able to get the ball to our forwards quicker.

[RedMyst]

1 hour ago, Lee909 said:

Get Matip back in ASAP, he knows when to play and when not too. Virg looks far more composed next to him.

This

[an tha]

Saw this on twitter.....very fair observations IMHO.

 

Colin Spreag
@ColinSpreag
The spaces both laterally and vertically are so big, so frequently for Liverpool.

You can't play a possession game, built around a 3-man base (CBs & Fabinho) whilst being so far away from each other in possession that any turnover can be turned into a counter attack.

Liverpool set up to play around their opposition's shape as opposed to through it or over it. The issue is that if there is a central turnover, there is a combination of no pressure on the ball (positional inferiority) and being outnumbered (numerical inferiority).

When you add in that their current midfielders are all either poor / untrained 1v1 defenders (Milner/Elliott) or out of form (Fabinho), you also have technical inferiority in central areas during defensive transitions.

It's a recipe for, well, everything seen this season so far.

When you add in that the potential covering defenders (ie full backs) are normally ahead of the ball, you're then relying on the CBs to defend half a field on their own multiple times a game.

So, potential tweaks to help?

- close the gaps in midfield either by adding another player to the base (4231)
- more conservative positioning of the full backs in possession
- better ball handlers playing in between the opposition shape to limit defensive transitions

The obvious one for me is to attack more compactly, however you decide to do that, which by default means more numbers around the ball and in central areas when it is lost.

Essentially, treat the center of midfield like City do.

The issue there is that you can't do that with either or both of Milner / Henderson in there - but with two from Thiago / Elliott / Arthur / Naby (I know...) in there, maybe you can.

 

 

There were several times tonight (and in previous games) where an opponent has the ball somewhere in their half and no one is close enough to press and they can just ping balls over our back four, stood at the halfway line. I mean, you don't need to be Xabi Alonso to do that, you have half a football pitch to aim at. I could do that.

[rubble-rouser]

The transition from really good to ‘a bit shit’ took 2-3 years in the late 80’s/early 90’s and we even won a league in the process. 
 

this is both familiar (hi Kenny!) and foreign in the sense that we went into that game with Madrid as justifiable favourites. 
 

For the previous six months we’d looked ropey but our forwards had got us out of the shit. You won’t find a bigger Mané fan than me - I confessed to my dad I loved him more than Barnes in 2019 - but even I can’t put it all down to Sadio shitting in us, although hearing that news in Paris was a massive body blow.

 

I’ve no agenda and no idea how to fix it, but our history suggests that when our most successful  managers (Shanks, Kenny) hit a rough patch they tend to find it tough. Not going to name any managers in the last 25 years as it’s too raw. We’ve had no reason to doubt Klopp since 2017 (I was sceptical to begin with after investing so much in Kenny, Evans, GH etc)
 

They say every political career ends in failure and the same is true for most footy

managers. Shankly, Paisley and F*rgus*on went out on their own terms - how many others have? I took some convincing in the first 6 months of Jurgen Klopp - too much promise over results - but bluntly the man is my hero now. He’s pro-community, anti-Tory and just knows where we’re coming from. One day he’ll leave us, and it probably won’t be with a treble or even a league. More likely a second place finish, a hug for his boys and maybe a cup or two.

 

Bob Paisley once quipped that he’d been here in the bad times - one time we finished second - I guess times have changed. Be honest, if someone had told you in October 2015 that Klopp would win us everything there was ti ensign (except the Europa - maybe this year?!) what would you have thought? We all love his bones, we all want to be him and we all know he’s a better coach than the Spanish baldy.

 

So how do we react to this crap? We’ve been spoiled in terms of quality - if not the big trophies . On the day Chelsea sacked one of the best managers in the world for god knows what, our Twitter ‘fans’ who have no concept of seeing us lose at home to Barnsley in 98, or seeing Poilsen v Arsenal, start ramping up the nonsensical ‘Klopp out’ agenda. Jurgen is Liverpool in a way that even Kenny wasn’t - at least when he was first manager. I can’t divorce my live for the club from my love for that man. When he punches the air in front of the kop - that’s why I go the match all distilled into a moment of pure ecstasy. That’s what I wanted Souness to be, it’s what I felt when Houllier planted a flag in Dortmund. It’s what Rafa never could grasp. 

 

And now, in what send like five minutes since I was herded like human cattle around St Denis, it feels like the beginning of the end. 
 

Klopp is a bright guy - ignore 7 year cycles and other shit coincidences. But was he right to only give us 7!years. I’ve seen the job eat my hero twice over, and clean out fagan. Our hardest ever player couldn’t cut it. I’ll cry when Jurgen leaves but for the first time since he made Dicock raise his arms post West Brom it’s a discussion. 

[rubble-rouser]

Obviously I can’t spell 

[3 Stacks]

3 hours ago, joe_fishfish said:

In Klopp's last season at Dortmund they were dominating games in midfield and being let down by a combination of shit finishing (eg. from Immobile) and even worse goalkeeping (Weidenfeller was never great but he fell off a cliff that season).

 

I don't think we have the same problems. None of our players look fit. They look knackered. Out worked and out sprinted in every game we've played. Basic obvious errors creeping in, players messing up touches and passes that should be second nature. That's not world class players turning into David Ngog and Paul Konchesky overnight, that's fatigue, mental and physical.

 

We messed up our fitness / conditioning work in preseason, injured a load of players, and exhausted everyone else. Now we can't seem to recuperate because no one can be rested or rotated, as the replacements are unavailable. Add in Mane leaving - a world class player who was never ever injured and dug us out of the shit repeatedly during his time here - and Thiago barely kicking a ball for us yet and here we are.

 

Alisson is still absolutely fucking excellent, but other than him, we need to go back to the drawing board.

This is all true. 

 

What I would add is that in hindsight, I find the last recruitment choices in attack pretty odd. Jota, Diaz and Nunez.

 

You look at the profiles of those players and they're all very clearly counter attackers, especially Nunez and Jota. That's basically all those two did at Benfica and Wolves. They exploited spaces on the break. When you add it all together with Diaz and Salah, who also play very vertically, we basically have a team of players who thrive in transition, yet we have decided to move towards a more controlling possession based style in the last few years. Maybe gegenpressing is in theory even more effective the more possession you have and that's why we've gone in that way, I don't know, but our direction now comes across as pretty counter intuitive and possibly a little misguided.

 

Especially the Nunez signing. You only have to watch him play once to realize he won't be at his best if you're trying to have 65% possession. Maybe I'm wrong. Bayern have no trouble playing possession football and they have Sane, Coman and Mane up front, which is as transition based a forward line as it gets, but it feels like with the attackers we have, it would make more sense to play more on the break. Feels like we're at a stylistic crossroads of sorts. 

 

 

[Bobby Hundreds]

We are not fit enough for the intensity or high press so we need to adapt. Even Ten Haag with those wasters has gone practical, defend well and counter. We need to conserve energy on the pitch because its 2 games a week until November. Its fucking ludicrous if we still keep trying to play the way we are. Defend better as a team and build from there.

[Code]

Yes, this Jota dude clearly does not fit our style of play.