Liverpool vs. Standard Liege

[Dublin Red]

Ryan's cross was quality, he is an attacking player who can do nothing for ages but produce a moment of class

 

 

Yep, he's very good at that bit alright.....

[Paul]

That's obvious, and I think it is to Rafa as well. I think he has thought safety first in playing Gerrard deeper the games Lucas and Masch has been gone.

I don't agree with it as I think Spearing or Plessis could've played beside Xabi to free up Gerrard giving us more punch going forward without it weaken our defensive strength.

 

But that's just the Rafa way I suppose.

 

I agree with that and I think it'll be his eventual undoing. I don't think a fundamentally cautious approach can win the English title now unless it's allied to huge resources. A case in point is the four matches so far where Gerrard has either started or come off the bench into the middle of the pitch when there are, as you say, other players available who could have done a job for a couple of matches until the Olympians returned. I think we'd have been far more comfortable in all these games if he'd been closer to the opposition goal, linking up with the two strikers.

[Torvald Utne]

It's now painfully obvious to most fans (many of whom have tried to give him as much time as they can before coming to the inevitable judgement), but by making constant excuses for him, you're undermining your own credibility. He really was not OK for the last 30 minutes: I saw at least five examples of the faults of touch, movement and passing that I cited above in that period. He contributed one thing of note all match and I'm damned grateful that he did, but that doesn't make him a top class player.

 

You seem to be forgetting the one thing kuyt is renowned for...workrate, while the rest of the lazy fucks were standing literally still(bar el zhar as a sub) waiting for the ball to be passed to them, kuyt as is always the case is always moving and creating space and making himself available. If the rest of the team would do the same we wouldn't be looking quite so shit. I agree that kuyt isn't suited to the right of a 442 but he does a decent job and pennant offers absolutely nothing, fuck all, zilch, nada.

[Ian Sea]

There's not really much more that can be said that hasn't been already. I thought we started quite well last night but without wanting to sound like Alan Hansen, the lack of width restricted us so much. Rafa tried to counter it last night by playing Xabi in almost a back 3, with Arbeloa and Aurelio pushing on. They aren't good enough though so it didn't really work. I'd love to see our central midfielders further up the pitch but that only happened late in each half.

 

I feel sorry for Keane as he operates best when he has space around him but last night he didn't have any at all due to Benayoun and Kuyt being so narrow all the time. If we can have wide players who stretch across the pitch then Keane would have more space in which to operate, and Gerrard would have more room to advance into. I know Stevie is injured (and it was obvious last night) but he hardly got beyond Alonso against Liege, which is saying something as Xabi was playing almost as a defender!

 

I thought Benayoun was awful last night, he isn't a wide player but surely he can see that by coming inside he's causing a cluster fuck? He needs to get wider and create space for others to move into. Our movement in general last night was shocking, that has to improve when space is created by our wide player playing wide.

 

At least we're through though, roll on Rome.

[twelvesmallsteps]

Its not just Kuyt though, we are massively techincally inferior team to Arsenal, Man Utd and Chelsea.

 

this is what worries me. we can't string a good run of passes together. i lost the count of times we just passed the ball out of play or straight into the opposition last night. add a team extremely low on confidence and you have our performances the last three or four games.

[Jose Jones]

I agree with that and I think it'll be his eventual undoing. I don't think a fundamentally cautious approach can win the English title now unless it's allied to huge resources. A case in point is the four matches so far where Gerrard has either started or come off the bench into the middle of the pitch when there are, as you say, other players available who could have done a job for a couple of matches until the Olympians returned. I think we'd have been far more comfortable in all these games if he'd been closer to the opposition goal, linking up with the two strikers.

 

As we've got Mascherano and Lucas back now though, playing Gerrard in centre mid can't be Rafa's eventual undoing can it? Especially as we've won both our league games and qualified for the champions league while we've been doing it. Or will Rafa's caution lead to him playing our most attacking midfielder in midfield along with four strikers later in the season as well?

[Glen C]

this is what worries me. we can't string a good run of passes together. i lost the count of times we just passed the ball out of play or straight into the opposition last night. add a team extremely low on confidence and you have our performances the last three or four games.

 

 

Don't agree at all. We play how the manager want us to play. I think that team could play a lot better pass and move football if rafa wanted us to play that way. It reminds of the times under Houllier really. Most of the time he had us playing direct football which was pretty boring to watch but kept us defensively tight and hard to beat. Then for a small period of time he let the players off the leash with a midfield of kewell, smicer, gerrard and diouf. All of a sudden our football was awesome, we were passing and moving and creating chances...and we finally saw the best of smicer. Yeah we leaked a few goals but we were still winning. Then we lost one(cant remember against who) and GH bottled it and we went back to being negative again and our football when to shit. That showed me how much of a influence a manager can have on a team. Look at when Wenger took over Arsenal, all of a sudden the same donkeys under the previous manager were playing football. I think the same is with us. We have the players to play good pass and move football but rafa isn't letting them off the leash. We have players like aurelio, skrtel, agger, arbeloa, hyypia, gerrard, mascherano, alonso, lucas, keane and torres who all seem very comfortable on the ball and can play one touch football so then why aren't we?

[Paul]

As we've got Mascherano and Lucas back now though, playing Gerrard in centre mid can't be Rafa's eventual undoing can it? Especially as we've won both our league games and qualified for the champions league while we've been doing it. Or will Rafa's caution lead to him playing our most attacking midfielder in midfield along with four strikers later in the season as well?

 

I was referring to his caution generally and using the specific point illustratively. I never know what to expect from Rafa. All logic now points to Gerrard playing on the right of the 4231 in my opinion, but I would not be at all surprised if he was played somewhere else.

 

As for the results, as I've said elsewhere, they were obviously very welcome. However, you can't deny that performances have been generally indicative of season-long form over Rafa's time here. The long and the short of it is that you can't expect to be at the top if you don't play well for much of the time. Obviously a few wobbly performances are neither here nor there - especially if you scrape wins out of them. But that's never been the case under Rafa, has it? We've consistently had seasons with long patches of mediocre performances. His second season is the only one where we've pulled out of such form and stayed out of it for a sufficiently long period to mount a credible league campaign.

 

(I don't understand your last point, by the way).

[Jose Jones]

Don't agree at all. We play how the manager want us to play. I think that team could play a lot better pass and move football if rafa wanted us to play that way. It reminds of the times under Houllier really. Most of the time he had us playing direct football which was pretty boring to watch but kept us defensively tight and hard to beat. Then for a small period of time he let the players off the leash with a midfield of kewell, smicer, gerrard and diouf. All of a sudden our football was awesome, we were passing and moving and creating chances...and we finally saw the best of smicer. Yeah we leaked a few goals but we were still winning. Then we lost one(cant remember against who) and GH bottled it and we went back to being negative again and our football when to shit. That showed me how much of a influence a manager can have on a team. Look at when Wenger took over Arsenal, all of a sudden the same donkeys under the previous manager were playing football. I think the same is with us. We have the players to play good pass and move football but rafa isn't letting them off the leash. We have players like aurelio, skrtel, agger, arbeloa, hyypia, gerrard, mascherano, alonso, lucas, keane and torres who all seem very comfortable on the ball and can play one touch football so then why aren't we?

 

Start of the season, some new players, disjointed preparation with the Olympics and Euros, bit of a lack of confidence.

The most important thing for playing good passing football is confidence and playing together. Yeah, managers can set the team out to play long ball football or whatever, but mostly it's about having the confidence to play the pass, knowing where players will be, etc.

The one thing you could criticise Rafa for is changing the formation around, again, and putting Gerrard in centre midfield, but this whole "let them off the leash" thing is pretty much nonsense I think.

[Paul]

Start of the season, some new players, disjointed preparation with the Olympics and Euros, bit of a lack of confidence.

The most important thing for playing good passing football is confidence and playing together. Yeah, managers can set the team out to play long ball football or whatever, but mostly it's about having the confidence to play the pass, knowing where players will be, etc.

The one thing you could criticise Rafa for is changing the formation around, again, and putting Gerrard in centre midfield, but this whole "let them off the leash" thing is pretty much nonsense I think.

 

I don't at all. All the reasons you cite in order answer the point would be fine if we were in his first or second season. But we're not; we're in his fifth season. I believe that Rafa is too tactically orientated and doesn't trust the judgement of his players enough. That's not to say that I'm dismissing tactics, because I'm really not. It's just that I think the blance between giving the players some freedom and giving them instructions to play to is not right.

 

The Mancs under Fergie and Quieroz had the balance just about perfectly: go hell for leather against weaker teams and twat them, but get a game plan when facing the better sides (ie, us) and exploit it. Obviously there were games where they wobbled, but broadly speaking they got it right; hence their trophy haul. Too many people seek to excuse our poor performances as the wobbles that all great teams come through. The point is though, that the great teams play fantastic football, hammer loads of opponents and win the league amidst their occasionally poor performances. We haven't ever done that under Rafa.

[Jose Jones]

I was referring to his caution generally and using the specific point illustratively. I never know what to expect from Rafa. All logic now points to Gerrard playing on the right of the 4231 in my opinion, but I would not be at all surprised if he was played somewhere else.

 

As for the results, as I've said elsewhere, they were obviously very welcome. However, you can't deny that performances have been generally indicative of season-long form over Rafa's time here. The long and the short of it is that you can't expect to be at the top if you don't play well for much of the time. Obviously a few wobbly performances are neither here nor there - especially if you scrape wins out of them. But that's never been the case under Rafa, has it? We've consistently had seasons with long patches of mediocre performances. His second season is the only one where we've pulled out of such form and stayed out of it for a sufficiently long period to mount a credible league campaign.

 

(I don't understand your last point, by the way).

 

I just think people are reading way too much into a few scratchy performances at the start of the season. You mention yourself that, basically you're aligning these up with all the times we haven't played well in the league in the past. I think that's just a bit over doing it. It's a new season, a new start, let's see how we go.

 

With regards the last point, I was being a bit facetious, but people go on about Rafa's caution and it confuses me. A lot of people say Rafa is too cautious when he wasn't playing Gerrard in centre midfield, why do we need two defensive midfielders, etc. Well we've been playing Gerrard in centre midfield, basically been playing with 3 or 4 strikers, 2 attacking midfielders and Alonso every game this season so far, and he still gets called cautious.

 

I'm not arguing that we've not played well - I just think people are throwing some things at the manager that don't measure up.

[Glen C]

I don't at all. All the reasons you cite in order answer the point would be fine if we were in his first or second season. But we're not; we're in his fifth season. I believe that Rafa is too tactically orientated and doesn't trust the judgement of his players enough. That's not to say that I'm dismissing tactics, because I'm really not. It's just that I think the blance between giving the players some freedom and giving them instructions to play to is not right.

 

The Mancs under Fergie and Quieroz had the balance just about perfectly: go hell for leather against weaker teams and twat them, but get a game plan when facing the better sides (ie, us) and exploit it. Obviously there were games where they wobbled, but broadly speaking they got it right; hence their trophy haul. Too many people seek to excuse our poor performances as the wobbles that all great teams come through. The point is though, that the great teams play fantastic football, hammer loads of opponents and win the league amidst their occasionally poor performances. We haven't ever done that under Rafa.

 

Exactly. Our approach play is so predictable and we are so static and you don't see much movement off the ball from our players. But we have the players to hammer the weaker teams and play good football at the same time, so why don't we do it? So many of our players play good passing football at international level for their countries because obviously that's how their managers want them to play. So what the hell is rafa drumming into them on the training ground because we struggle to string a few passes together.

[Paul]

I just think people are reading way too much into a few scratchy performances at the start of the season. You mention yourself that, basically you're aligning these up with all the times we haven't played well in the league in the past. I think that's just a bit over doing it. It's a new season, a new start, let's see how we go.

 

With regards the last point, I was being a bit facetious, but people go on about Rafa's caution and it confuses me. A lot of people say Rafa is too cautious when he wasn't playing Gerrard in centre midfield, why do we need two defensive midfielders, etc. Well we've been playing Gerrard in centre midfield, basically been playing with 3 or 4 strikers, 2 attacking midfielders and Alonso every game this season so far, and he still gets called cautious.

 

I'm not arguing that we've not played well - I just think people are throwing some things at the manager that don't measure up.

 

I don't see how it's possible to look at four matches in isolation when they match the broad pattern of the four years of the manager's rein. To me, it defies logic to say we should ignore all the issues to do with results and performances that have gone before simply because it's a new season.

[Jose Jones]

I don't at all. All the reasons you cite in order answer the point would be fine if we were in his first or second season. But we're not; we're in his fifth season. I believe that Rafa is too tactically orientated and doesn't trust the judgement of his players enough. That's not to say that I'm dismissing tactics, because I'm really not. It's just that I think the blance between giving the players some freedom and giving them instructions to play to is not right.

 

The Mancs under Fergie and Quieroz had the balance just about perfectly: go hell for leather against weaker teams and twat them, but get a game plan when facing the better sides (ie, us) and exploit it. Obviously there were games where they wobbled, but broadly speaking they got it right; hence their trophy haul. Too many people seek to excuse our poor performances as the wobbles that all great teams come through. The point is though, that the great teams play fantastic football, hammer loads of opponents and win the league amidst their occasionally poor performances. We haven't ever done that under Rafa.

 

Paul, sorry seem to be replying to a few different posts all at different times, bit confusing.

I'd say you have a point regarding the first bit, it's certainly a worthy discussion of Rafa's management style.

But again, I think too much is being read into the slightly dodgy performances at this stage of the season. You mention Man U as a comparison, but they've had two scratchy performances with a win and a draw - they haven't been performing any better than us at all.

 

I know your point is that they've proven they can improve and win the league, as last season shows. I guess my point is that we haven't proven we can't do that this season yet - so maybe wait until we do start losing games before getting too worried about it! I'm quite happy for discussions on formations, and getting the best out of the players etc, I just reckon there's a bit of an overreaction, based on the usual reasons.

The point is though, that the great teams play fantastic football, hammer loads of opponents and win the league amidst their occasionally poor performances. We haven't ever done that under Rafa.

 

We haven't won the league, no. But we have won the best European Cup final of all time, and the best FA Cup final of recent times. That's not too bad going.

[Jose Jones]

I don't see how it's possible to look at four matches in isolation when they match the broad pattern of the four years of the manager's rein. To me, it defies logic to say we should ignore all the issues to do with results and performances that have gone before simply because it's a new season.

 

Well, it's probably that I don't see that much of the broad pattern, and because I'm still an optimistic fool.

[Anny Road]

I wouldn't mind losing the odd game here and there if only we were not so fucking dull to watch.

I am not suggesting we attempt to play like 70's Brazil or 90's toon, but for fuck sake pass and move. Get forward, get rid of the holding midfield player at home against shite.

Grow a set Rafa.

[coop]

Ignoring previous seasons because they are now in the past regardless of the success and failure and concentrating purely on the four competitive games we have played so far this season and the early signs are worrying.

 

Whilst im concerned how predictable we are and how narrow we attack teams i strongly believe we are yet to see the true Liverpool this season and although he has written off before even kicking a ball Reira will at least give us attacking intent down the left wing with either Gerrard or Babel on the right.

 

Our form and formation needs to change and it needs to change asap as although we have managed to qualify for the Champions League and won our opening two games you feel that our luck is about to run out and with Villa away and Man United at home being our next two games you feel it will be stretched far further then so far.

 

Torres as never looked as ineffective whilst wearing the red of Liverpool and in the recent summer tournament whilst partnering Villa maybe shows Torres is better as a lone striker with players supporting him but not directly alongside him.

 

Now Mascherano has returned Rafa needs to get Keane supporting Torres and Gerrard on the right with Mascherano and Alonso commanding the midfield.

 

The team is crying out for the balance supplied by these players and until this is sorted i can see us struggling through each game.

[King Emlyn]

I'm suprised so many seem to be citing the return of Lucas as an important factor for us. He seems decidedly average to me but so many seem to rate him. Here's hoping the many are right.

[G Richards]

I haven't read the whole thread but have just come on. My observations:

 

1. That was a very good Standard Liege side. Well done to them, and they wouldn't have looked the slightest bit out of place in the CL proper.

 

2. Our form is dodgy again, but our strength of will got us over the line. That augurs well for me, as the form will improve.

 

3. Rafa is not playing his system yet this season. He is patching it up and being pragmatic, with two midfielders gone and Gerrard slightly less than his usual blockbuster self because of groin injury.

 

4. I expect to see 4-2-3-1 come in again very soon. This seems to be Rafa's preferred system, and we played some very good stuff in the second half of last season with it. That will be back and we'll start to improve our performances beyond all recognition. In the meantime, I'm very happy that we've added the useful trait of picking up wins when we're not at our best.

 

5. While Gerrard is out I expect Robbie Keane to score and step up his performances a bit. When Stevie comes back into the side I think it should be at Kuyt's expense, though the value (and weaknesses, to be fair) of Dirk were both seen last night.

[JohanH]

Couple of observations

 

1) All teams with many internationals are struggling (Arse and Mancs both dropped points and Chelsea looked average against Wigan)

 

2) Europeans and Olympics have disrupted the pre-season with players back late after short breaks or not back at all till now.

 

3) We've been missing 2 first teamers in Babel and Mascherano and especially the latter has been forcing Rafa to play pragmatic

 

4) Gerrard has been playing with an injury

 

5) We have 6 points when we could easily have had only 2, which is good considering one main problem last year was too many draws.

 

Is the glass half full or half empty- will we start playing better and continue to win or continue to play poor and start to lose?

[redcash]

I haven't read the whole thread but have just come on. My observations:

 

1. That was a very good Standard Liege side. Well done to them, and they wouldn't have looked the slightest bit out of place in the CL proper.

 

2. Our form is dodgy again, but our strength of will got us over the line. That augurs well for me, as the form will improve.

 

3. Rafa is not playing his system yet this season. He is patching it up and being pragmatic, with two midfielders gone and Gerrard slightly less than his usual blockbuster self because of groin injury.

 

4. I expect to see 4-2-3-1 come in again very soon. This seems to be Rafa's preferred system, and we played some very good stuff in the second half of last season with it. That will be back and we'll start to improve our performances beyond all recognition. In the meantime, I'm very happy that we've added the useful trait of picking up wins when we're not at our best.

 

5. While Gerrard is out I expect Robbie Keane to score and step up his performances a bit. When Stevie comes back into the side I think it should be at Kuyt's expense, though the value (and weaknesses, to be fair) of Dirk were both seen last night.[/ well said,would agree totally with every point!:yes:

[Sangria]

I'm suprised so many seem to be citing the return of Lucas as an important factor for us. He seems decidedly average to me but so many seem to rate him. Here's hoping the many are right.

 

I agree about Lucas and both himself and Babel have very big seasons coming up.

Players of that age usually always need at least a season to settle and it will be interesting to see how they go this year.

 

Masch however will make a big difference in a lot of ways. Having said that one player should not make such a big difference but a lot of other factors come into it as well.

 

I think we will turn the corner and we have the players to do so, I just hope we get through the next two games without too much damage.

[RedBrian84]

I'll probably end up repeating most of what is already on here, but here goes:

 

That was shite last night. We all know that. Play like that in the group stages and we'll get murdered. Too pedestrian in our movement, too lethargic, always being second to every ball, over reliance on long balls from the back, no width.

 

Give Liege all the credit- they were brilliant in both legs and you have to feel for them a little bit that they drew us in the qualifiers; they really deserve to be in the competition.

 

On the positive side though, we kept going until the very end, and occasionally we put some decent football in there as well. And what can you say about Dirk? We all know he polarises opinion on here and at the games; some think he's shite, others- myself included- think he's fucking brilliant.

 

When you need players to stand up and be counted, you know that Dirk is always going to be there. He never shies away from responsibility or tries to hide if things aren't going his way- if he fucks up (which he is prone to doing) he doesn't let it affect him; he simply keeps on going and going. His work rate and effort and sheer commitment to the cause last night completely justified why he's at the club. Nobody else put more toil, sweat and sheer guts to the cause. Okay, he isn't the most technically gifted player and he's certainly no winger, but our club and our fans have always valued hard work and graft, and the old saying "good things come to those who wait" applied last night. I was so chuffed it was Kuyt who got the goal. How many times has he arrived on cue with absolutely vital goals? He's getting like Gerrard.....

 

Anyway enough of the Dirk love in, last night needs a line drawing under it. We need to improve, and improve quickly.

[zico]

Kuyt wasnt great tonight. Indeed it could be said he was poor. But tell me who was great tonight, apart from Reina. Dont see why Kuyt is being singled out of that whole mess tonight.

 

Kuyt was shit poor, so was Benayoun and Keane... Torres was better than the mentioned, but nowhere near his own high standards, however the rest of the team was pretty good.

 

Solid in defense and in the center of the park...... But of course when 70-80% of your attacking firepower has a day off then sparkles won't fly....

[zico]

That message also reads, 'i'm leaving you out of the side to the detriment of the team', in my humble opinion.

 

We are crying out for Pennant on the wing.

 

Due to the lack of alternatives, yes indeed!!