Chris Bascombe

[redrosetints]

Superbowl about to start. Patriots want no.19. We want no.19. Maybe we should sign Tom Brady.

 

Or Robert Kraft

[stringvest]

I'm sure we all agree the quality of football we've shown on and off over the last few seasons has been poor. Effective at times, but not great. We've played some scintillating stuff, even this season, but over the last 15 or so games we've mostly played badly, even when we've got a good result. It doesn't augur well for Benitez, and suggests that he is struggling to get the team playing fluid attacking football, and suggests that he has made a lot more poor tatical or selection decisions than one would expect from a manager with his record.

 

It may be that some of the players have lost faith in his ability to bring the league championship home. It may be that some players are cheesed off with his unpredictable team selection, and his seemingly grudging behaviour with respect to certain individuals.

 

This is all very concerning, and forces us to ponder whether Benitez is already a lame duck, or at least whether he is the man to be leading us next season.

 

But - as urgent as these questions are, the issue that needs resolving more urgently than anything else is that of the club's ownership. Removing the Americans quickly is, I believe, of fundamental importance to the future of the club. Whether we come 4th or not this year is irrelevant in comparison. Seriously.

 

The reason? If the current owners were still here at the end of the season (and I am almost 100% certain they won't be), any CL revenue could easily be siphoned off, or at best be placed against existing debts. If DIC are in charge, they will take the hit while looking to recoup at the end of their planned period of ownership. DIC's business plan will present a much more positive and proctive outlook for the club. It will be driven ultimately by success on the field - winning leagues and cups, where the Americans' plan sees us being most financially successful (for them) when performing roughly as we have been - winning 4th place in the league, and the odd cup final to maintain outside interest in the club. That particular cash cow can be regularly milked - once the stadium has been built - by maintaining the squad at roughly the same level it is at now.

 

The bottom line is, in my opinion, that we need to sort the foundations out first. Yes, we may be employing a dodgly plumber at the moment, but if he doesn't buck up we can always look around for another while letting him carry on. If we don't get the foundations right, we could be looking at a pile of rubble in the 24 months.

[m0e]

I think a big section of our support has become as bad as anyone. At least Newcastle can justify their impatience because they haven't won anything for 50 years.

 

We seem to be saying four years maximum and you're out even if you've won the CL.

 

It's ridiculous.

 

People made up their minds about Rafa a long time ago.

 

The way I see it, Klinsmann was offered the job when we were still in 4 competitions and had a hell of a chance of challenging for the league.

 

It's gone tits up for a variety of reasons, and I'd like the majority of those sorted well before we decide to stop supporting our manager.

 

Up until now, I haven't even bothered replying to Ian or Paul's recent posts because there's not point.

 

However, Paul, if you think sacking Rafa and allowing G&H to pick a new manager (and then 'fund' a new squad to help us challenge) is the best option for Liverpool Football Club, then your are extremely deluded and way too optimistic for your own good.

 

And Brownie, your Pompey and Everton 'momentum' changers ARE NOT the main reasons our league campaign has gone off the rails. The two fuckers muddying the waters are. It really is as simple as that, in my eyes.

 

I'm not going to back Benitez no matter what, and I don't claim to be a football expert. However, I know a good manager when I see one, and Rafa is a very good manager. I never believed that was the case with any other manager we've had since Kenny, even after Ged's treble year.

 

Regarding Rafa losing the players... if he had, he'd had left by now. Reina, Sami, Arbeloa, Mascherano, Pennant, Aurelio, Lucas, Babel, Torres and even Crouch, Gerrard and Carra have not shown signs of losing the faith.

 

It looks more like them being deflated by the whole situation and the fact that we will not be challenging for the umpteenth season.

 

Rafa is NOT A PROBLEM.

 

G&H ARE A PROBLEM.

 

We can deal with the football side later. It's not as if we're getting relegated, ffs.

[rebel23]

Add to that the other rule - every year has to be better than the last one, fixture by fixture. If you beat Team A at home and drew away, you've got to do the double next year.

 

hahah yeah I hate that, I also love the old one spider-neil uses, that you HAVE to come 2nd before you can legitimately challenge for the league, Arsenal barely finished 4th last year and now proudly sit top.

[Liquid football]

Agree with that. The trouble is, if we'd had non-back-stabbing thieves running the club we'd have had strong statements of support for Rafa back when we drew against Portsmouth away (just like Chelsea the Mancs and Arsenal did). We'd not have had a situation where the manager had to sacrifice a league game to save his job (Reading away). Instead we had owners and a CEO who let the shit hit the fan in the press rather than back the manager. He had this season took off him, he deserves another one in return.

 

It's a little more complicated in my opinion. I think the owners have inadvertently taken a lot of the heat off Rafa on the fan side of things. We were looking shit a while back and it was brushed aside because we all needed to get behind Rafa (and rightly so).

 

Just for the sake of argument, say none of the off the field stuff had happened this season, all was quiet and G+H had just gone quietly about their jobs - there would have been nothing for anyone to focus on other than the football and Benitez would have been under 10 times the pressure from the fans.

[spider-neil]

hahah yeah I hate that, I also love the old one spider-neil uses, that you HAVE to come 2nd before you can legitimately challenge for the league, Arsenal barely finished 4th last year and now proudly sit top.

 

there are no hard and fast rules but that is usually the case and I'd like you to post examples since the premiership started which teams have won the league whilst being outside the top two the previous season

[Brownie]

I said it earlier and I can only repeat it now - it's unbelievable how polarised our support has become.

 

We're getting to the point where league mediocrity is becoming acceptable.

[Brownie]

It's a little more complicated in my opinion. I think the owners have inadvertently taken a lot of the heat off Rafa on the fan side of things. We were looking shit a while back and it was brushed aside because we all needed to get behind Rafa (and rightly so).

 

Just for the sake of argument, say none of the off the field stuff had happened this season, all was quiet and G+H had just gone quietly about their jobs - there would have been nothing for anyone to focus on other than the football and Benitez would have been under 10 times the pressure from the fans.

 

Don't be silly - Rafa messing about with the team back in September was the owners fault, didn't you know?!

[Brownie]

I think a big section of our support has become as bad as anyone. At least Newcastle can justify their impatience because they haven't won anything for 50 years.

 

We seem to be saying four years maximum and you're out even if you've won the CL.

 

We also seem to be saying that one speculative story about the two most important players in the squad possibly losing faith in the manager, and you should be sold despite massively contributing to a CL win.

[Jose Jones]

I said it earlier and I can only repeat it now - it's unbelievable how polarised our support has become.

 

We're getting to the point where league mediocrity is becoming acceptable.

 

It's not acceptable, but it's understandable this season.

As has been pointed out, we were unbeaten and 6 points off the top, when all the shit came out in the press. Rafa was told to stop even thinking about signing players, the owners wanted him sacked and admitted talking to Klinsmann.

Look at how well Spurs played at the start of the season when Jol's position was being fucked about with. They went from 5th only just missing Champions League football, to the relegation zone.

 

If you don't think the biggest reason we've gone shit recently is all down to the owners undermining the manager, then I would say you're severely wrong.

 

Rafa isn't perfect by any means, but if there's a list of things wrong with the club, Rafa is a long way down the list.

[Hamma]

Firstly, I am against Mourinho getting the job, even though I think he'd so it well. That said, if he came, I'd have to get on with it.

 

Secondly, like it or not, we are shit on the pitch - and not just because of the current owners. I am not prepared to pretend that we're not just because it doesn't sound very nice.

 

Paul - I must disagree with you and a number of our fellow forumites. The resolution should not be predicated on the availability of a good replacement for Rafa.

 

When I think about how a business is run, I look to the CEO. You either believe and accept the vision and the mission that he sets forth or you don't. In rafa's case, his philosophy as many have rightly mentioned is driven by the desire to nullify the opposition - if we want to want to win beautfully or play 'sexy' football, he is the wrong coach.

 

I would put forth the controversial view that playing exciting football and winning football games may be mutually exclusive. Very few managers appear to get the balance right, let alone achieve this consistently. I feel frustrated and have to ask myself are our expectations realistic? A legacy does not give us the right to demand for perfection.

[Kopite]

I just think that it sends out the wrong message that we would sack a manager a year after getting to a champions league final.

 

It's the kind of thing that Italian and Spanish clubs do and we scoff at it

 

Obviously if we ended up 5th or worse and with no saving grace such as an FA Cup Final or a strong showing in strong showing in the later stages of the Champions League then questions would obviously have to be asked, but even then, I wouldn't be too keen on drastic measures.

 

Spot on.

[Paul]

However, Paul, if you think sacking Rafa and allowing G&H to pick a new manager (and then 'fund' a new squad to help us challenge) is the best option for Liverpool Football Club, then your are extremely deluded and way too optimistic for your own good.

 

Where have I said that? I have simply laid out what I perceive the situation to be, not what I want. In my opinion, the manager has lost the players which makes his position untenable. It is possible to win them back, but highly unlikely. Sacking him now would be a mistake as there is still plenty to play for and GH managed to get fourth when he was in a similar position. If a top class replacement was available, I'd make a change. As I'm not a football agent/director I have no idea whether that is the case and I doubt it would be any way. I want The Twats out yesterday and don't want them to have any further part in the running of this club. I'm not offering solutions as I can't see any. All I'm saying is that, sadly, things are about as shite as they can possibly be.

 

What I want is for Rafa to turn things around and go on and win us the league.

 

 

Paul - I must disagree with you and a number of our fellow forumites. The resolution should not be predicated on the availability of a good replacement for Rafa.

 

When I think about how a business is run, I look to the CEO. You either believe and accept the vision and the mission that he sets forth or you don't. In rafa's case, his philosophy as many have rightly mentioned is driven by the desire to nullify the opposition - if we want to want to win beautfully or play 'sexy' football, he is the wrong coach.

 

I would put forth the controversial view that playing exciting football and winning football games may be mutually exclusive. Very few managers appear to get the balance right, let alone achieve this consistently. I feel frustrated and have to ask myself are our expectations realistic? A legacy does not give us the right to demand for perfection.

 

I think you misunderstand "shit on the pitch". I'm referring to results, not style of football.

[Dirk]

It's not acceptable, but it's understandable this season.

As has been pointed out, we were unbeaten and 6 points off the top, when all the shit came out in the press. Rafa was told to stop even thinking about signing players, the owners wanted him sacked and admitted talking to Klinsmann.

 

So did quite a few of our fans, which is why I'm very sceptical of the stance of a lot of them.

[Rashid]

I still don't get all this shit about this season and Rafa. What about Rafa's league results the previous 3 seasons? We have yet to be in contention for the league at any time under Rafa.

[Jose Jones]

So did quite a few of our fans, which is why I'm very sceptical of the stance of a lot of them.

 

I don't agree with you there Dirk. Maybe a few people at the time that came out wanted him sacked. There were more people that were questioning a few decisions and wondering if he was the right man for the job.

[King Emlyn]

for the record I can totally understand why some fans want him out I just find it depressing as we were in a european final mere months ago, how times change and as I said previously if the liverpool fans put the new manager on a pedestal I will take it will a pinch of salt because I know how quickly that can change.

Bang on, it's exactly what i said after Houllier and is the main reason i never put Benitez on a pedastal.

[Rafa Shankly]

I still don't get all this shit about this season and Rafa. What about Rafa's league results the previous 3 seasons? We have yet to be in contention for the league at any time under Rafa.

rash im pretty sure ive seen posts by you in the past stating we need DIC because we`l never win anything without their money.

 

just because you want rafa out the money excuse is not holding up now eh?

 

well if money should now not be held as an excuse we really dont need DIC do we?

[Jose Jones]

I still don't get all this shit about this season and Rafa. What about Rafa's league results the previous 3 seasons? We have yet to be in contention for the league at any time under Rafa.

 

Well, to me, 3rd place is the average we can realistically expect, given the level of Chelsea's spending, Fergusons success and spending, and Arsene Wenger's talent unearthing extraoardinaire.

1st season - 5th underacheived in the league, won the Champions League.

2nd season - 3rd decent in the league, won the FA Cup

3rd season - 3rd, decent in the league, Champions League final

4th season - yet to be determined, not looking good.

 

So long as the squad keeps improving, and I think that it has, I think Rafa has done a decent job, and you couldn't realistically expect anything more.

[aws]

We also seem to be saying that one speculative story about the two most important players in the squad possibly losing faith in the manager, and you should be sold despite massively contributing to a CL win.

 

It's not really a question of whether they've lost faith or not, is it?

 

If they have but keep their mouths shut in public and get on with their job then fine - nothing wrong with that.

 

But if they're using Basco as a conduit to express their dissatisfaction then if I was the manager I'd fuck them off - no matter who they are.

 

It's been obvious for weeks what they really think because they've gone out of their way not to be seen to be expressing support for the manager. Now it seems like they've taken it a step further and by doing so are trampling straight into the Manager and Fans V Owners fight.

 

It's starting to smack of Shearer and Newcastle.

[zico]

You know what? Fuck this shit. I've fucking had it. Gloves are off now.

 

We have a manager with a proven record of WINNING big trophies. 2 La Ligas, 1 European Cup, 1 UEFA Cup, and 1 FA Cup - all in the last 6 years.

 

We have a manager who is hailed by many, and rightly so, as being a tactical genius.

 

This is a guy who has turned Liverpool around into being a force, a real genuine honest to fucking goodness force in Europe. Are we nervous ahead of the Inter tie? Yes. You can also bet your bottom dollar that Inter are shitting a brick at having to play Benitez in a 2 leg Euro tie.

 

I would kindly like to remind you that, despite our history, we have been - for the best part of 15 years (with the honourable exception of 01) - plainly average. How the FUCK have so many Liverpool supporters developed amnesia? Something in the half time beer?

 

THE ONLY FUCKING REASON WE ARE JUMPING UP AND DOWN AT THE START OF THE SEASON, THINKING WE HAVE A CHANCE OF THE LEAGUE, IS BECAUSE RAFA BENITEZ TURNED LIVERPOOL FROM A DISTINCTLY AVERAGE TEAM, TO EUROPEAN CHAMPIONS - AND RUNNERS UP, IN THREE YEARS.

 

So we're not going to win the League this year. Well, get fucking over it. With all the shit Rafa has had to deal with behind the scenes - ON HIS FUCKING OWN BY THE LOOKS OF IT - its not surprising.

 

I'm not one of the "Gerrard is a cunt" brigade. But honestly, if Stevie, or Carra for that matter, think that THEY know better how to get no.19 to Anfield this season, then I'm sorry - they sound about as clueless about footie as Lawro, Redknapp, and many other ex-players.

 

Rafa is the manager. He is not God. He makes mistakes. Whisper it quietly, but Shanks made mistakes too. Fuck it, Bob Paisley misjudged how quickly he needed to rebuild the late 70s side - so we fell from double champions in 79 and 80, to 5th in 81. And in 82, we were lagging far behind by Christmas.

 

But you know what. Bob knew he had misjudged it in 81. He fixed it. We snagged the League in 82, with a great comeback.

 

Because Bob was a top manager.

 

And so is Rafa. If Steve G, Carra, or anyone suddenly thinks that someone who could drag an average Liverpool to Champions League finals year after year is not - THEN THEY'RE WRONG. We are NOT going back to the Spice Boys days. The manager is the boss. The players shut the fuck up and play. The rest of us get behind the manager, and support the team.

 

Thems the rules. Follow them, or fuck off.

 

 

Good post....

[fin-bat]

If Carra and Gerrard have lost their fate in Benitez, then I´m sure it´s got nothing to do with Rafas habit of playing them out of position once and a while, but everything to do with the treatment that Croucho gets from him, and how certain players get a game ahead of Peter.

 

Rafa has a soft spot for Kuyt for some reason, and that will be hes downfall in the eyes of the team, unless he wakes up from under the spell very soon...

[zico]

Thats a stupid reply. Gerrard is one of the worlds best players and club captain has every right to be concerned about how he is used and how the team is played.

 

Everyone backed Carras when he fucked England off because he was never played at center half. Is he not likely to be pissed of if the same thing happens at club level.

 

Jesus it was for one game, and we won......

 

I think he is shit at right back(which he has been on a few occations at center back as well this season), but he did put a cross in that scored us that important first goal..... besides Finnan has been so shit lately he surely shouldn't be a starter in our first 11

[zico]

I agree , for what its worth, Gerrard is a great player usually but a hopeless captain. He should pass the armband to Mascherano. Far better equipped in my opinion.

 

Could not agree more.... Mascher is a leader out there on the pitch, even tells the referee when he needs to be told....

[zico]

Good post but why would you play a world class central midfielder on the right to accomodate Sissoko? Why would you put a top class centre back on the right full back position? Positions both players hate?

 

Would Fergie play Ferdinand at full back? Would he play Scholes right midfield?

 

He is the benchmark.

 

On current form we have one world class midfielder at Liverpool and he does play center midfield and has never been used elsewhere the time he has been here.......