Chris Bascombe

[Rashid]

Oh fuck off, you all jizz over Wenger being better than Rafa but his side went completely potless for two years while he developed young players.

 

Yes but Wenger has a different remit and I can't imagine him complaining about not spending money, can you?

[Rashid]

We absolutely do need to invest in the first team, but Rafa had to make a choice, and if Lucas and Babel would have gone on to make it elsewhere you'd have been the first one moaning!

 

What genuinely young winger, and not aged 23/24, would have been ready to go straight into the first team?

Nani, possibly. He'd certainly be better than anyone else we can play on the left, but the Mancs, with their Portugese contingent, had him sewn up for months.

(Just as we did Lucas)

 

Babel is 22, so why not aged 23?

[WeAreTheBest]

Babel is 22, so why not aged 23?

 

He's just turned 21 in December though you've never been one for facts.

[Ted]

21

[Zippy]

We absolutely do need to invest in the first team, but Rafa had to make a choice, and if Lucas and Babel would have gone on to make it elsewhere you'd have been the first one moaning!

 

What genuinely young winger, and not aged 23/24, would have been ready to go straight into the first team?

Nani, possibly. He'd certainly be better than anyone else we can play on the left, but the Mancs, with their Portugese contingent, had him sewn up for months.

(Just as we did Lucas)

 

I just think with the finances we have available we weren't in the priviliged position of being able to spend 20 million on a fourth choice central midfielder and a very raw player who has never played in the position (left wing in a 442) that we needed strengthening in the present.

[Dirk]

"I don't think it is about enjoying yourself with the manager off the pitch. It is all about seriousness and getting results in an England shirt. That is the most important thing, not having a laugh and a joke.

 

"I think everyone was nervous because it is a new manager but we're certainly excited."

 

Who said this and about who did he say it?

[Moo]

Babel is 22, so why not aged 23?

 

He was 20 when we signed him and still at his boyhood club (and not a winger by the way!)

 

If your getting at Qua***, he's a full 3 years older than Babel, and has done his share of journeying, unlike Babel.

 

I don't even know if that's what you are getting at hence why I asked, who?

I know it's somebody elses job to find them, but 18-21 year old [preferably left] wingers ready to go into a top 4 Premiership team are hard to come by.

[Zippy]

Who said this and about who did he say it?

 

Gerrard about Capello.

[Dirk]

Gerrard about Capello.

 

Goes to show that players in England can work with a manager knowing that it's not about having a friendly, fun relationship.

[Moo]

I just think with the finances we have available we weren't in the priviliged position of being able to spend 20 million on a fourth choice central midfielder and a very raw player who has never played in the position (left wing in a 442) that we needed strengthening in the present.

 

Don't we know it, and I'm sure Rafa does too.

I believe he just felt that he couldn't miss out on yet more exceptional, not just promising, talents.

 

It's also a possibility that he believed he would have more money to spend than he was actually given (like the majority of LFC supporters).

 

And he probably also believed he would be given time to see the raw talent come to fruition.

Instead, because of all the other stuff going on it looks like he can't see how they pan out OR invest in more of the Torres ilk.

[Zippy]

Goes to show that players in England can work with a manager knowing that it's not about having a friendly, fun relationship.

 

 

To be fair if (and its a big if) the players have lost faith in Rafa then it isn't neccesarily because he is a hard man it is more likely the reasons that have seen a number of fans begin to harbour serious doubts about him getting the most out of our squad.

[hamstrung]

Could it just be that there was no game changing winger available at the right price

 

He went after Malouda, it didn't happen, priorities changed and in came Babel and Yossi

 

Presumably, this is where Quaresma gets a mention. Maybe Rafa's like a lot on here who think he's vastly overrated.

[rebel23]

no one knows how Babel and Lucas will turn out but they are both quality for their age and in future you might be saying "fucking hell Rafa was a genius". I will not criticise Rafa for buying excellent young players it's the kind of thing we need to do, they need games and will be inconsistant in the mean time though Babel has scored 7 goals, when was the last time we bought a young attacking player like that who scored 7 goals for the 1st team in half a season? it is surely significant

 

I hope he continues to buy excellent young players who will be here for years to come that is exactly the kind of policy we should be following, the only thing is I would like him to play them more but sooner or later if he carries on acquiring them like I think he should, he will have no choice as the team will be full of them!

 

I do agree with Barry that the sheer scale of the outs, especially this summer, could be a problem and I hope Rafa doesn't recruit a bundle of medicore players, he will live and die by the transfer market as a manager should do and will have to get it right

[Skidfingers McGonical]

Could it just be that there was no game changing winger available at the right price

 

He went after Malouda, it didn't happen, priorities changed and in came Babel and Yossi

 

Presumably, this is where Quaresma gets a mention. Maybe Rafa's like a lot on here who think he's vastly overrated.

 

How long will your post get ignored for I wonder.

 

And we all know how Malouda's first season has panned out, spent what 75% on the treatment table.

 

Quaresma, how many of the top clubs have been falling over each other to get his signature in any window?

[kop]

Who is this £20m winger anyway? Does he even exist? We should buy Messi, that's what we should do. By the sound of some on here it's like Dr. Benitez has had £120m to spend as he likes when he likes. The fact is though that he gets £20m here and another £10m there. Even if he knew he would get £30m at once one summer he coulndt've bought one or two players and ignored the rest. At least not until now. The problem now is that he probably won't get the £20m-£30m in the summer.

[Rashid]

Rafa has failed to sign a winger of any note in his 4 seasons here despite his system being taylor made to play with wide players. His attacking signings barring the obvious exception have been poor. Even Petrov at Man City is better than every winger we have.

[Skidfingers McGonical]

Rafa has failed to sign a winger of any note in his 4 seasons here despite his system being taylor made to play with wide players. His attacking signings barring the obvious exception have been poor. Even Petrov at Man City is better than every winger we have.

 

Ah that is unfair, he inherited one winger on a note, a sick fucking note.

 

I blame football manager and You Tube myself.

 

As you do keep saying yourself though Rash, we need a 'Quaresma or Joaquin' but one who will toe Rafa's line.

 

Out of those two, do you think they would last long here, I don't, either of them would because they have not got the right attitude. Plus the fact we haven't got hem could be down to availability and Rafa refusing to be had off in the transfer market.

[zigackly]

Yes but Wenger has a different remit and I can't imagine him complaining about not spending money, can you?

 

I can't imagine him being hounded out by a bunch of ungrateful wankers after drawing a few games.

[Brownie]

Goes to show that players in England can work with a manager knowing that it's not about having a friendly, fun relationship.

 

As Zippy said, the lack of a personal relationship may not be the reason the players have lost faith. It may be a factor but there's bound to be others which have been mentioned plenty of times before.

[Paul]

No, you always aim for improvement, it's just a massive challenge to go from third to going to first. Being a club of our level you need both the better equiped boys to drop the ball and you need to surpass Arsenal, it's a massive ask.

 

I'd say it's nothing to do with being cheeky, it's just unrealistic. Nobody is standing still, you've got a team with two decades of development adding £50m to flesh out their bench whilst we're trying to build the base of quality by getting Torres in for £19m.

 

We're running a race with a larger weight handicap. It's as simple as that.

 

People want to be careful what they wish for, all these lucky Champions League runs have every chance of leaving with Benitez and we'll have the occasional domestic cup to keep us warm as yet another man gets given 4 years to bring back a glory that people can't accept will never be re-created.

Stu, you keep misrepresenting the opposing view to yours (or certainly my version of it). No-one is expecting the league title. I just expect a genuine challenge. We have gone from following Istanbul up with the FA Cup and 82 points (one point off second and the two games against Chelsea off the title) with nothing but an inexorable decline. Why have we gone backwards from there? It's certainly got nothing to do with our performances against the biggest spenders as we've been entirely consistent against them in the league: we almost never win.

 

Rafa's first two seasons were fantastic in my view, but his third and fourth have been ever worse. People have reacted to some of my posts recently as if I've suddenly plucked an opinion out of mid-air. However, I was critical of Kuyt and Pennant, and the demotion of Crouch last season. Furthermore I have also been underwhelmed by almost every piece of transfer business done since that 82 point finish. Rafa has simply replaced mediocre players with more of the same and all in the name of options. This was happening long before the arrival of the cunts who are literally killing our club.

 

You seem to be taking an almost perverse pride in supporting the status quo (ownership excepted) these days mate. I know and genuinely respect your values-driven approach to being a Red. However, I've never understood your championing of Dirk, for example. You are absolutely right to laud his character (and I really do admire your steadfastness in doing so), but his football is indefensible for a club like Liverpool. Likewise your statement here:

I'm saying we'll work to become a bastion of invincibility...but it will take time. We'll be as we are, with possible brief ups and downs until we can sort out the standium. I can accept that, anything else is unrealistic in my opinion.

 

How can you possibly believe we'll ever be able to catch up with clubs who are already miles ahead of us by waiting around for a new stadium? The only way is for Rafa to reveal a Wenger-like knack for developing young and relatively cheap players that he's hitherto kept hidden throughout his career. By the time a stadium is built, we'll be even further down the pecking order following the pattern of the last two seasons, with the further complication of key players entering the latter phases of their careers.

 

Realism is a term you keep referring to, but it strikes me that you are not being realistic about the modern game: it is based entirely upon money. We either accept that and go for it, or we pack up and concede defeat. I don't understand this sudden distaste for Mammon anyway. Anyone would think we'd never led the shirt sponsorship charge or consistently broken transfer records for all those years.

 

What are we as a club if we're not about winning? Yes we have a way of winning - The Liverpool Way - but it was always about winning, just the same. Our greats, both on and off the pitch were obsessed by it, and we should be too. The day we concede our ambitions is the day The Liverpool Way truly dies, in my opinion.

 

I sincerely hope I'm wrong about Rafa as there is so much to respect, thank and admire the man for. However, the pattern of the last two years shows no sign of abating. Indeed it looks to be getting worse. How can it do otherwise if he's lost the players? And no-one seems to be addressing my assertion that this process was already in motion pre-Twats. Yes, the cunts have accelerated the process, but the bewildered, lack-lustre performances were there for all to see last season, too.

 

Stu, I ask you this - how can Rafa fight his way back from here? In my opinion, the only way is for him to lay himself open to the players and say, "Tell me how to turn it round". That will also then have to be followed by a rapid change in ownership to new "custodians" who continue to back him. I don't see either scenario happening and it makes me fucking sick to say so.

 

In short, for the first time in all my years as a Red, I haven't got a broadly optimistic outlook. These are sad, sad days and it's fucking horrible to bear witness to them.

[Evil_Ways]

Rafa has failed to sign a winger of any note in his 4 seasons here despite his system being taylor made to play with wide players. His attacking signings barring the obvious exception have been poor. Even Petrov at Man City is better than every winger we have.

 

He has tried to sign Alves, Mancini, SWP etc, but we have failed to make it happen. That's at board level rather than Rafa i would think.

[Brownie]

Stu, you keep misrepresenting the opposing view to yours (or certainly my version of it). No-one is expecting the league title. I just expect a genuine challenge. We have gone from following Istanbul up with the FA Cup and 82 points (one point off second and the two games against Chelsea off the title) with nothing but an inexorable decline. Why have we gone backwards from there? It's certainly got nothing to do with our performances against the biggest spenders as we've been entirely consistent against them in the league: we almost never win.

 

Rafa's first two seasons were fantastic in my view, but his third and fourth have been ever worse. People have reacted to some of my posts recently as if I've suddenly plucked an opinion out of mid-air. However, I was critical of Kuyt and Pennant, and the demotion of Crouch last season. Furthermore I have also been underwhelmed by almost every piece of transfer business done since that 82 point finish. Rafa has simply replaced mediocre players with more of the same and all in the name of options. This was happening long before the arrival of the cunts who are literally killing our club.

 

You seem to be taking an almost perverse pride in supporting the status quo (ownership excepted) these days mate. I know and genuinely respect your values-driven approach to being a Red. However, I've never understood your championing of Dirk, for example. You are absolutely right to laud his character (and I really do admire your steadfastness in doing so), but his football is indefensible for a club like Liverpool. Likewise your statement here:

 

 

How can you possibly believe we'll ever be able to catch up with clubs who are already miles ahead of us by waiting around for a new stadium? The only way is for Rafa to reveal a Wenger-like knack for developing young and relatively cheap players that he's hitherto kept hidden throughout his career. By the time a stadium is built, we'll be even further down the pecking order following the pattern of the last two seasons, with the further complication of key players entering the latter phases of their careers.

 

Realism is a term you keep referring to, but it strikes me that you are not being realistic about the modern game: it is based entirely upon money. We either accept that and go for it, or we pack up and concede defeat. I don't understand this sudden distaste for Mammon anyway. Anyone would think we'd never led the shirt sponsorship charge or consistently broken transfer records for all those years.

 

What are we as a club if we're not about winning? Yes we have a way of winning - The Liverpool Way - but it was always about winning, just the same. Our greats, both on and off the pitch were obsessed by it, and we should be too. The day we concede our ambitions is the day The Liverpool Way truly dies, in my opinion.

 

I sincerely hope I'm wrong about Rafa as there is so much to respect, thank and admire the man for. However, the pattern of the last two years shows no sign of abating. Indeed it looks to be getting worse. How can it do otherwise if he's lost the players? And no-one seems to be addressing my assertion that this process was already in motion pre-Twats. Yes, the cunts have accelerated the process, but the bewildered, lack-lustre performances were there for all to see last season, too.

 

Stu, I ask you this - how can Rafa fight his way back from here? In my opinion, the only way is for him to lay himself open to the players and say, "Tell me how to turn it round". That will also then have to be followed by a rapid change in ownership to new "custodians" who continue to back him. I don't see either scenario happening and it makes me fucking sick to say so.

 

In short, for the first time in all my years as a Red, I haven't got a broadly optimistic outlook. These are sad, sad days and it's fucking horrible to bear witness to them.

 

That's one of the best posts i've ever read. Passionate, logical and well written. It's a pleasure to read your posts at times Paul.

 

Obviously I agree with pretty much everything you're saying there. You best be prepared to receive stick from some people though, because they don't want to hear any of it.

 

I've been saying the same thing for a while, although with far less style and panache, and i've been getting dogs abuse for it. Possibly because of the language i've used to demonstrate my views, but nevertheless you do need to prepare yourself for some stick.

[Gav]

Stu, you keep misrepresenting the opposing view to yours (or certainly my version of it). No-one is expecting the league title. I just expect a genuine challenge. We have gone from following Istanbul up with the FA Cup and 82 points (one point off second and the two games against Chelsea off the title) with nothing but an inexorable decline. Why have we gone backwards from there? It's certainly got nothing to do with our performances against the biggest spenders as we've been entirely consistent against them in the league: we almost never win.

 

Rafa's first two seasons were fantastic in my view, but his third and fourth have been ever worse. People have reacted to some of my posts recently as if I've suddenly plucked an opinion out of mid-air. However, I was critical of Kuyt and Pennant, and the demotion of Crouch last season. Furthermore I have also been underwhelmed by almost every piece of transfer business done since that 82 point finish. Rafa has simply replaced mediocre players with more of the same and all in the name of options. This was happening long before the arrival of the cunts who are literally killing our club.

 

You seem to be taking an almost perverse pride in supporting the status quo (ownership excepted) these days mate. I know and genuinely respect your values-driven approach to being a Red. However, I've never understood your championing of Dirk, for example. You are absolutely right to laud his character (and I really do admire your steadfastness in doing so), but his football is indefensible for a club like Liverpool. Likewise your statement here:

 

 

How can you possibly believe we'll ever be able to catch up with clubs who are already miles ahead of us by waiting around for a new stadium? The only way is for Rafa to reveal a Wenger-like knack for developing young and relatively cheap players that he's hitherto kept hidden throughout his career. By the time a stadium is built, we'll be even further down the pecking order following the pattern of the last two seasons, with the further complication of key players entering the latter phases of their careers.

 

Realism is a term you keep referring to, but it strikes me that you are not being realistic about the modern game: it is based entirely upon money. We either accept that and go for it, or we pack up and concede defeat. I don't understand this sudden distaste for Mammon anyway. Anyone would think we'd never led the shirt sponsorship charge or consistently broken transfer records for all those years.

 

What are we as a club if we're not about winning? Yes we have a way of winning - The Liverpool Way - but it was always about winning, just the same. Our greats, both on and off the pitch were obsessed by it, and we should be too. The day we concede our ambitions is the day The Liverpool Way truly dies, in my opinion.

 

I sincerely hope I'm wrong about Rafa as there is so much to respect, thank and admire the man for. However, the pattern of the last two years shows no sign of abating. Indeed it looks to be getting worse. How can it do otherwise if he's lost the players? And no-one seems to be addressing my assertion that this process was already in motion pre-Twats. Yes, the cunts have accelerated the process, but the bewildered, lack-lustre performances were there for all to see last season, too.

 

Stu, I ask you this - how can Rafa fight his way back from here? In my opinion, the only way is for him to lay himself open to the players and say, "Tell me how to turn it round". That will also then have to be followed by a rapid change in ownership to new "custodians" who continue to back him. I don't see either scenario happening and it makes me fucking sick to say so.

 

In short, for the first time in all my years as a Red, I haven't got a broadly optimistic outlook. These are sad, sad days and it's fucking horrible to bear witness to them.

 

fuck me paul but thats a superb post.To paraphrase nick,I agree 100% .very well put,hope you have a hard hat or helmet for the inevitable assault thats on the way

[hamstrung]

That's one of the best posts i've ever read. Passionate, logical and well written. It's a pleasure to read your posts at times Paul.

 

Obviously I agree with pretty much everything you're saying there. You best be prepared to receive stick from some people though, because they don't want to hear any of it.

 

I've been saying the same thing for a while, although with far less style and panache, and i've been getting dogs abuse for it. Possibly because of the language i've used to demonstrate my views, but nevertheless you do need to prepare yourself for some stick.

 

I don't agree with some of what you post, but its done in the right way. That bit in bold is almost Rashid like though.

 

Because someone disagrees, the only possible reason is because they don't want to accept negatives? Can we not just have different opinions? Bit arrogant to assume one opinion is right because some can accept "the truth" and others can't.

[Brownie]

I don't agree with some of what you post, but its done in the right way. That bit in bold is almost Rashid like though.

 

Because someone disagrees, the only possible reason is because they don't want to accept negatives? Can we not just have different opinions? Bit arrogant to assume one opinion is right because some can accept "the truth" and others can't.

 

Of course we can, but i've been called a 'cunt' plenty of times for having mine. That's the point I was making. I'm not saying i'm right, Paul's right, you're wrong, Rashid's wrong or anything like that.

 

If it came across like that then sorry, but that's not what I meant.

 

Some people don't like to hear about negatives and you can be called a 'cunt' for it. Thinking about it, Paul doesn't have much to worry about because his style of posting is much more reserved and eloquent than mine, so I probably shouldn't have even said that.

 

Anyway...