This unexploded car bomb...

[dave u]

Houses in Liverpool have been raided this afternoon. Allerton and Toxteth I think, just caught something on the end of the news, it's apparently related to the Glasgow thing.

[WaltonRed]

I said to my missus this morning when we got up I bet it wont be long before someone is nicked in Liverpool to do with something terror related and low and behold it happened.

 

Anyone want this weeks lotto numbers?

[Redexile]

Nah, there was nothing to explode in the first place. it's a very beneficial operation.

 

Stage a bomb threat and have the police take care of it. That way people are inclined to think that an attack could happen at any time, and that the police did their job in tackling it. Hurrah for anti-terror police!

 

But if they had more power to act earlier, it wouldn't have been such a close call. They could stop these problems at the source. And you will never have to be afraid of terrorism again.

 

So pass my laws and take away peoples basic human freedoms today!

 

 

Fuck I can't believe it...you called it right ...those crafty government types even persuaded somebody to ram his car into Glasgow Airport terminal and then set himself on fire. The things those people will do so they can take away your freedom.

[Dirk]

Houses in Liverpool have been raided this afternoon. Allerton and Toxteth I think, just caught something on the end of the news, it's apparently related to the Glasgow thing.

 

Och aye the stew.

[Redexile]

It allows you to get your hands on resources that you need and to push through policies that you want to push through, such as I.D. cards. It's not really about votes; although killing hundreds of thousands of people for oil will lead to a loss of votes unless you have a justification. The contstant and unrelenting threat of terrorism is that justification.

 

What is it about you lot that makes you worried about carrying an id card?. We've been using them for years out here. Very convenient when you want to cash a cheque etc. The fact that a cop might want to look at it has never bothered anybody over here.

[Redexile]

I'm not obsessed with it. I just think it's blatantly obvious that the powers that be were complicit. You should watch the documentary The Power of Nightmares. You then realise that the US government has always perpetuated a climate of fear.

Agree with you on the US government and their control shit. But let's not go through all that 9-11 shite again. You and I both know that their's too much shit been written about that already and most of it is pie in the sky stuff.

[Dirk]

Agree with you on the US government and their control shit. But let's not go through all that 9-11 shite again. You and I both know that their's too much shit been written about that already and most of it is pie in the sky stuff.

 

I think we've had this discussion before but it's not the card, it's the database attached to the card and the information that they are going to collate and attach to the card is unprecedented, it's never happened like this before and therefore, your carrying of the ID card in SA is infinitely different to the ones we'll be obliged to carry here. If it was like the French one which substitutes a passport I'd have no problem with carrying one, I expect the ones in SA are similar.

[Jose Jones]

I think we've had this discussion before but it's not the card, it's the database attached to the card and the information that they are going to collate and attach to the card is unprecedented, it's never happened like this before and therefore, your carrying of the ID card in SA is infinitely different to the ones we'll be obliged to carry here. If it was like the French one which substitutes a passport I'd have no problem with carrying one, I expect the ones in SA are similar.

 

Yup.

When ID cards were first mooted the response was, "why the hell do we need these, it's a fat waste of money, never mind the affront to civil liberties". Now they're being pushed as needed to combat terrorism. It's a basic admittance that they're going to be used for spying on people.

 

But if you've got nothing to hide, what do you have to worry about?

Maybe the fact that you can be locked up without charge just at the whim of the cops...

 

Still anyone who thinks that the government was behind the unexploded car bombs in London and the Glasgow airport car thing needs to take a good look at their brain.

[Redexile]

I think we've had this discussion before but it's not the card, it's the database attached to the card and the information that they are going to collate and attach to the card is unprecedented, it's never happened like this before and therefore, your carrying of the ID card in SA is infinitely different to the ones we'll be obliged to carry here. If it was like the French one which substitutes a passport I'd have no problem with carrying one, I expect the ones in SA are similar.

 

I see, what stuff is going to be attached to it? We will be getting a new one released shortly just a pic, DoB and address and drivers and gun licences ( if you have one) on board.Oh and of course the obligatory fingerprint.

[Redexile]

Yup.

When ID cards were first mooted the response was, "why the hell do we need these, it's a fat waste of money, never mind the affront to civil liberties". Now they're being pushed as needed to combat terrorism. It's a basic admittance that they're going to be used for spying on people.

 

But if you've got nothing to hide, what do you have to worry about?

Maybe the fact that you can be locked up without charge just at the whim of the cops...

 

Still anyone who thinks that the government was behind the unexploded car bombs in London and the Glasgow airport car thing needs to take a good look at their brain.

 

 

But if you've got nothing to hide, what do you have to worry about?

Maybe the fact that you can be locked up without charge just at the whim of the cops...

 

They can do that any time anywhere in any country if they really want to though can't they?

[WaltonRed]

But if you've got nothing to hide, what do you have to worry about?

Maybe the fact that you can be locked up without charge just at the whim of the cops...

 

They can do that any time anywhere in any country if they really want to though can't they?

 

Im not being funny but Blairs thoughts on it tonight in a documentary on Channel 4 sound okay to me. Its time to jib pussy footing about, something needs to be done, it wont be easy, it certainly wont be nice but something needs to be done.

 

Luckily this set of attacks never came off in the way they had obviously hoped or we could of had dozens of deaths again.

 

Dont get me wrong Civil liberties are one of the things that makes this country great but they developed over centuries when nothing like this was the great threat to our nation.

 

How long before they do something at the match or in nightclubs or Oxford st on Christmas Eve, then the finger gets pointed at the Govt for not doing enough.

 

Its a really hard subject with no clear cut answer, its a rock and a hard place type situation.

[Dirk]

I see, what stuff is going to be attached to it? We will be getting a new one released shortly just a pic, DoB and address and drivers and gun licences ( if you have one) on board.Oh and of course the obligatory fingerprint.

 

Some of these are vague, probably deliberately so, but so far there are 50 items but this is likely to be added to at a later date.http://www.opsi.gov.uk/ACTS/acts2006/60015--b.htm#sch1

 

In effect, they could have your person on lock down by suspending your ID card on the basis of tenuous information such as being under suspicion. If the government strip away our civil liberties and can hold us for long periods on the basis of "suspicion", that coupled with these ID cards leaves me with a sense of discomfort. Recently, the deputy chief Constable of Hampshire Police complained about the ever increasing levels of CCTV coverage in this country after there was CCTV erected in a very quiet village.

 

 

"I'm really concerned about what happens to the product of these cameras, and what comes next?" he said.

 

"If it's in our villages, are we really moving towards an Orwellian situation where cameras are at every street corner?

 

"And I really don't think that's the kind of country that I want to live in."

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6673579.stm

 

Me too.

 

To look at the id cards, allowing police to hold people for longer on the basis of suspicion and the ever increasing reliance on CCTV, as separate issues is to miss the point completely, I see them as individual pieces of the same puzzle, interlocking to create a bigger picture, so to speak. If senior British policemen are beginning to have concerns then why shouldn't I?

[Stu Monty]

Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety"

[WaltonRed]

If you go through life just doing normal every day things do you even realise your liberties have been infringed upon in the 1st place?

[Dirk]

If you go through life just doing normal every day things do you even realise your liberties have been infringed upon in the 1st place?

 

The everyday Germans had nothing to fear, it was the Jews that had to worry wasn't it?

[Redexile]

Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety"

awww come on...you know if I look around I will find a quote from an equally famous person to counter that.

The fact is times have changed since Ben's time, people who believe they have a just cause are often willing to kill and maim other ( usually innocent) people to attempt to justify their cause. Given also that these very same people live amongst the populous how do you combat it ? There is no easy solution that I can think of that may not offend some portion of the population.

[Dirk]

awww come on...you know if I look around I will find a quote from an equally famous person to counter that.

The fact is times have changed since Ben's time, people who believe they have a just cause are often willing to kill and maim other ( usually innocent) people to attempt to justify their cause. Given also that these very same people live amongst the populous how do you combat it ? There is no easy solution that I can think of that may not offend some portion of the population.

 

Maybe sometimes it's impossible to eradicate all threat. I used to perpetually check for signs of illness, lumps, wash my hands regularly, not eat meat unless I cooked it myself as a means of preventing harm to my person. I had no life living that way. Any measures taken should be realistic.

[wiiksie]

Im not convinced either way on the ID card debate, but Dirk and Monty, is there another solution to protect people while at the same time not eroding their civil liberties?

[Dirk]

Im not convinced either way on the ID card debate, but Dirk and Monty, is there another solution to protect people while at the same time not eroding their civil liberties?

 

The measures taken to counteract a risk should be proportional to the threat. How many people have died in this country because of terrorism in the previous ten years? Talk about taking a hammer to crack a few nuts.

[Cath]

How will ID cards protect people? How will someone having their photo on a piece of plastic make me safer?

[Dirk]

How will ID cards protect people? How will someone having their photo on a piece of plastic make me safer?

 

Precisely. It's going to help you catch a suicide bomber isn't it, after they've detonated the bomb and themselves? Oh wait, fuck, they're dead.

[wiiksie]

The measures taken to counteract a risk should be proportional to the threat. How many people have died in this country because of terrorism in the previous ten years? Talk about taking a hammer to crack a few nuts.

So is your solution do fuck all?

[Stu Monty]

awww come on...you know if I look around I will find a quote from an equally famous person to counter that.

The fact is times have changed since Ben's time, people who believe they have a just cause are often willing to kill and maim other ( usually innocent) people to attempt to justify their cause. Given also that these very same people live amongst the populous how do you combat it ? There is no easy solution that I can think of that may not offend some portion of the population.

 

You deal with the issues behind it all instead of dealing with the symptoms, mate. All the I.D. cards in the World aren't going to stop the problems caused by the situation in Palestine. They are just going to exasberate the issue here too as certain minorities feel even more singled out when the authorites clamp down on them.

 

In a country where the amount of people that read the Mail, Express and the Sun all get a vote I'd be pretty concerned about having a ready made database for their elected representatives to use when they want to start housecleaning.

[Stu Monty]

Im not convinced either way on the ID card debate, but Dirk and Monty, is there another solution to protect people while at the same time not eroding their civil liberties?

 

Yes, sort the issues not the symptoms.

[wiiksie]

Yes, sort the issues not the symptoms.

Yeah...and that means what in this context?