Employment law advice

[Section_31]

Kip of this. 

 

My Mrs has been teaching at the same Primary School for 10 years. Flawless record, won awards and all sorts of shit. She's also been given extra management responsibilities on top of it (which she accepted) but has found it harder and harder to do a full time teaching job too. The head had promised her time out of class but has not always delivered. She had a panic attack shotly before summer after the deputy and another member of the senior leadership team were horrible to her about something.

 

The council gave her an occupational health assessment and the nurse agreed that she should be allowed to ditch her management responsibilities and just teach. She had a meeting with the head, some HR turd from the council and union bloke. The head said he wasn't accepting the OH recommendations as there was nobody else who could take on her roles. 

 

Union bloke advised her on the side that she should 'go off on the sick' and find another job. Then yesterday he rang her and said HR had 'made an offer', that she could get paid until Christmas if she goes now, oh and they'll 'give her a good reference'. Union guy says to take it.

 

She's still not had sight of the reference yet, but all her colleagues were in tears today when she  told  them, literally in tears.

 

This CAN NOT be legal surely?!? 

[Bernard Diomede]

6 minutes ago, Section_31 said:

Kip of this. 

 

My Mrs has been teaching at the same Primary School for 10 years. Flawless record, won awards and all sorts of shit. She's also been given extra management responsibilities on top of it (which she accepted) but has found it harder and harder to do a full time teaching job too. The head had promised her time out of class but has not always delivered. She had a panic attack shotly before summer after the deputy and another member of the senior leadership team were horrible to her about something.

 

The council gave her an occupational health assessment and the nurse agreed that she should be allowed to ditch her management responsibilities and just teach. She had a meeting with the head, some HR turd from the council and union bloke. The head said he wasn't accepting the OH recommendations as there was nobody else who could take on her roles. 

 

Union bloke advised her on the side that she should 'go off on the sick' and find another job. Then yesterday he rang her and said HR had 'made an offer', that she could get paid until Christmas if she goes now, oh and they'll 'give her a good reference'. Union guy says to take it.

 

She's still not had sight of the reference yet, but all her colleagues were in tears today when she  told  them, literally in tears.

 

This CAN NOT be legal surely?!? 

I work in education mate and it’s absolutely grim in how ruthless they are. I’ve heard and seen this done loads of times and unfortunately, the reality is that they’ll make her life utterly miserable until it gets to the point that she cracks and leaves, or can’t cope with the workload and starts making errors that lead to a dismissal. I’ve had dealings with loads of different headteachers and loads of them have been borderline sociopaths/megalomaniacs. 
 

It’s absolutely shite, but in terms of the stress that may follow my advice would be to take the offer, or to try and negotiate a slightly better offer. Once they’ve made a decision like that there is no going back. Your only option is looking at fighting a constructive dismissal case but the schools usually make sure they have the evidence they need for there to be no repercussions. 

[AngryOfTuebrook]

17 minutes ago, Section_31 said:

Kip of this. 

 

My Mrs has been teaching at the same Primary School for 10 years. Flawless record, won awards and all sorts of shit. She's also been given extra management responsibilities on top of it (which she accepted) but has found it harder and harder to do a full time teaching job too. The head had promised her time out of class but has not always delivered. She had a panic attack shotly before summer after the deputy and another member of the senior leadership team were horrible to her about something.

 

The council gave her an occupational health assessment and the nurse agreed that she should be allowed to ditch her management responsibilities and just teach. She had a meeting with the head, some HR turd from the council and union bloke. The head said he wasn't accepting the OH recommendations as there was nobody else who could take on her roles. 

 

Union bloke advised her on the side that she should 'go off on the sick' and find another job. Then yesterday he rang her and said HR had 'made an offer', that she could get paid until Christmas if she goes now, oh and they'll 'give her a good reference'. Union guy says to take it.

 

She's still not had sight of the reference yet, but all her colleagues were in tears today when she  told  them, literally in tears.

 

This CAN NOT be legal surely?!? 

That's shit advice from the union.  If OH say she can't do those duties, the Head has no legal right to try to make her: it's like sending a bloke with vertigo to work up on scaffolding.

 

If she was unable to teach, then there might be a case for taking the capability release that they're offering.  As it is, she has every right to keep her teaching job, minus the management duties; and she needs to talk to her Branch Secretary or Regional Officer to get better advice.

[Bruce Spanner]

24 minutes ago, Section_31 said:

Kip of this. 

 

My Mrs has been teaching at the same Primary School for 10 years. Flawless record, won awards and all sorts of shit. She's also been given extra management responsibilities on top of it (which she accepted) but has found it harder and harder to do a full time teaching job too. The head had promised her time out of class but has not always delivered. She had a panic attack shotly before summer after the deputy and another member of the senior leadership team were horrible to her about something.

 

The council gave her an occupational health assessment and the nurse agreed that she should be allowed to ditch her management responsibilities and just teach. She had a meeting with the head, some HR turd from the council and union bloke. The head said he wasn't accepting the OH recommendations as there was nobody else who could take on her roles. 

 

Union bloke advised her on the side that she should 'go off on the sick' and find another job. Then yesterday he rang her and said HR had 'made an offer', that she could get paid until Christmas if she goes now, oh and they'll 'give her a good reference'. Union guy says to take it.

 

She's still not had sight of the reference yet, but all her colleagues were in tears today when she  told  them, literally in tears.

 

This CAN NOT be legal surely?!? 

 

As luck, or not, would have it, I’m sat with a union guy now.
 

Yep, she’s being managed out.

 

Nothing you can do apart from meet targets, which will become more and convoluted and difficult as she heads up the pay scale/performance management cycles if she wants to stay.

 

Thats no life, sadly.

 

The original role they can say no longer exists.

 

As shot as it sounds take the ‘offer’ and milk it.

 

 

[Creator Supreme]

You wouldn't believe how often employers ignore OH reports when it goes in the favour of the employee. Even if the employer chose the OH in the first place.

 

I note the union rep told her to take the offer on the quiet, which to me indicates that the same shit has happened before and they know how it's going to end.

 

It's shit advice, but it suggests a lack of options.

 

I hope your missus comes out of the other side of this OK @Section_31.

[Kepler-186]

 

Sorry to hear this mate hope the missus is alright.

 

All to common I’m afraid. My cousin was head of year and department down south and a new head forced out all the old guard one by one, he just about got through it and has just retired. 

 

[Section_31]

1 minute ago, Kepler-186 said:

 

Sorry to hear this mate hope the missus is ok. 

 

 

She's gutted mate. I am too as I know how much she loves teaching and just how good she is at it.

[Kepler-186]

4 minutes ago, Section_31 said:

 

She's gutted mate. I am too as I know how much she loves teaching and just how good she is at it.

I’ve got family and friends in teaching and it’s that potent mix of rewarding and stressful as fuck at the same time that can lead to burnout especially when the extra work at home or after hours isn’t recognised. 

[Bernard Diomede]

What AOT says there is all 100% right in theory, I’m only saying what I’ve seen so defo explore other peoples opinions/experiences.

 

If she decides to bow out I’d defo try and negotiate something more though mate. If they’re willing to pay til Christmas now I’d gamble that they’d be willing to pay til February half term minimum as well. In time/management HR costs and all round hassle to constructively dismiss her it’s going to be a much longer and messier process so 6 weeks extra salary to eliminate all that would be worth it I would have thought. But again seek advice from others. 
 

Best of luck with it anyway, shite situation all round. 

[Section_31]

The choice at this point is between getting three months wages and 'a good reference', or going off on the sick, applying for a job when she's good and ready.

 

As I understand it you can apply for roles while you're on the sick, and an employer can't give you a bad reference anyway. If that not the case?

[Bruce Spanner]

11 minutes ago, Section_31 said:

The choice at this point is between getting three months wages and 'a good reference', or going off on the sick, applying for a job when she's good and ready.

 

As I understand it you can apply for roles while you're on the sick, and an employer can't give you a bad reference anyway. If that not the case?

They can only refuse to produce a reference, which is as good as a bad one.

 

Out of interest are the others you mentioned earlier new? 

[Section_31]

2 minutes ago, Bruce Spanner said:

They can only refuse to produce a reference, which is as good as a bad one.

 

Fucking hell, how is that legal? How can you give a bad reference if someone's never - provably - done anything wrong? Been late or disciplined?

 

What's the point in employment law if someone can simply decide they don't like you any more?

[Bruce Spanner]

48 minutes ago, Section_31 said:

 

Fucking hell, how is that legal? How can you give a bad reference if someone's never - provably - done anything wrong? Been late or disciplined?

 

What's the point in employment law if someone can simply decide they don't like you any more?

 

It’s that a job has been created and a job has become obsolete and an easy ‘out’.

 

Its a tale as old as time.

 

I can’t tell you then number of good people I’ve seen managed out as their face doesn’t fit the new people who’ve no idea of the context, circumstances, history etc.

 

They come with new ideas that require cash and they look for the low hanging fruit who are on relative decent money that they can ship out.

 

Its a fucking joke.

 

She can either ride it out and ‘prove’ her worth, or be proactive, and slightly cynical, and use the time wisely to find somewhere that’s not a snake pit.

 

Love to you and yours.

[Lee909]

I wouldn't  agree to a thing until the written reference is in her possession. Hopefully she can find a better place to work. 

[Elite]

They are being unreasonable cunts by the sounds of it. No reason why they couldn't just let her focus on teaching. I'd speak to a solicitor that understands employment law etc.

[Clem H Fandango]

Unfortunately that's how local council employees operate. The hierarchy can doom anyone as they please.

 

I would argue the point of having an occupational health department if it can be overruled, and that to have a department with no input is a waste of taxpayers money.

[Kevin D]

Sounds like she’s peaked and it’s time to cash her in for a younger model.

[littletedwest]

3 hours ago, Section_31 said:

The choice at this point is between getting three months wages and 'a good reference', or going off on the sick, applying for a job when she's good and ready.

 

As I understand it you can apply for roles while you're on the sick, and an employer can't give you a bad reference anyway. If that not the case?

I had to give a reference last week. It was good but there were templates saying "x left due to sickness absence" "x left due to performance issues " and " x left due to gross misconduct" so I'd class these as bad references.

One thing she could do is get a fit note from her gp. These can say things like " fit to work with adjustments" such as " due to anxiety Mrs sections mental health would be improved by having no management responsibilities"

I'd also tell her to ask for her employment contract to see if these are written in, probably won't help as they'll say she accepted them by doing the role but she may as well be awkward.

I'd also tell her to find out if they have a grievance procedure and raise a grievance. 

[Mudface]

Unfortunately, I think Bruce and @Bernard Diomede are right here. My sister's a teacher and so is my missus's best friend and they both have similar stories of people being forced out. It's the sadly inevitable consequence of running schools as businesses.

[Elite]

Anything to do with 'mental health' when working with children/vulnerable people is an immediate out option for the employer should they want to be cunts. It's understandable/appropriate in some cases but in this instance it's the managerial stuff that's the problem, not the actual frontline working but it's the proving part which is going to be tricky.

[an tha]

Sounds like the perfect opportunity to negotiate a settlement agreement.

[Carvalho Diablo]

My advice is to sit tight. There's an election coming and hopefully change for the better, just around the corner.

 

Union involvement is a good start, so too would be to go sick for 6 months, get her SSP, she's earned it. And then claim ESA and hang in there, see the Tories off and wait for the wind to change.

 

Sadly I've seen *a lot* of teachers leave the profession they love, feeling broken and betrayed, but that would be my advice to your missus mate, if she's truly passionate about teaching then to hang in there, if at all possible.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

4 hours ago, Elite said:

Anything to do with 'mental health' when working with children/vulnerable people is an immediate out option for the employer should they want to be cunts. It's understandable/appropriate in some cases but in this instance it's the managerial stuff that's the problem, not the actual frontline working but it's the proving part which is going to be tricky.

The OH report should be enough to go on.  If they say she's fit to teach, but the managerial duties need to be dropped as a reasonable adjustment, then the employer has an obligation to support her in that way: failing that, she might have a case for constructive dismissal.

 

Unfortunately, what a lot of cunts rely on is people who have already suffered loads of stress often have little stomach for the fight.

[Manny]

I’ve got no advice Section but sounds like she’s in a nest of absolute cunts, hope you get sorted!

[YorkshireRed]

I feel for you and your wife. Too much of this kind of shit in the world.
 

She could obviously fight it, but I’d be worried about the impact on her long term health. Even if she wins, she won’t win as cunts like that headteacher will just find other ways to make her suffer.

 

I don’t have enough technical knowledge to offer specific advice, but I do know that the first offer is rarely the best offer, particularly where mental health is at play. There might be a way to tie it into a compromise agreement as well, which would mean she’d keep more of the money. There’ll be others on here who know more about that than me though.

 

That the children will be losing a good teacher, who loves her job, is a crying shame. It’s not like we’ve a surplus of good teachers in this country that are prepared to put up with the crap they have to.