Keir Starmer

[Bobby Hundreds]

A think the footage of Corbyn high fiveing Emily Thorneberrys tits is about the only memorable thing I've seen from labour in 10 years.

[Jairzinho]

He's fucking shit, isn't he?

[Gnasher]

If Labour lose Hartlepool and Starmer reacts by calling the people living there a bunch of Brexit loving monkey hangers he'll go right up in my estimation.

[Vincent Vega]

Looks like not being able to go on holiday is really pissing people off.

Edit - just clocked the date and see it’s from last year.

[Captain Howdy]

On 22/03/2021 at 17:59, Jairzinho said:

He's fucking shit, isn't he?

Yep. Too grey and uninspiring to begin to try and take on a popular Government. Makes Major look like Oliver Reed.

[Jairzinho]

Just now, Captain Howdy said:

Yep. Too grey and uninspiring to begin to try and take on a popular Government. Makes Major look like Oliver Reed.

His tactic appears to be hoping Brexit and the economic fallout of Coronavirus are sufficiently atrocious. 

 

He doesn't seem to say anything...about anything. 

[Captain Howdy]

6 minutes ago, Jairzinho said:

His tactic appears to be hoping Brexit and the economic fallout of Coronavirus are sufficiently atrocious. 

 

He doesn't seem to say anything...about anything. 

Again I agree, no fight, no ideas, no charisma, no anything.

[Gnasher]

The day he thought it was a good idea to throw Corbyn under the bus to placate a few nutt job tory sympathisers was the day things started going up shitcreek. 

 

 

Maybe a few of them sprawling essays from the neo liberal fraternity on here will boost the leaders popularity, although I doubt it.

[Gooch]

1 hour ago, Jairzinho said:

His tactic appears to be hoping Brexit and the economic fallout of Coronavirus are sufficiently atrocious. 

 

He doesn't seem to say anything...about anything. 

Yep pretty much this. Never thought he had enough about him to win an election, but thought he would at least have ‘something’ about him. The guy just seems to exist in a vacuum watching the world go by. Stunning lack of charisma and relevance.

[Section_31]

The worry is the lack of talent anywhere on the benches. Tories in a similar state, although for them it doesn't seem to matter.

[Gnasher]

https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/keir-starmer-labour-future-unite-len-mccluskey-warning-jeremy-corbyn-923624

[sir roger]

If the long knives come for Starmer they will be held by centrist and rght wing hands , not the media bogey men like McCluskey.

[Jairzinho]

3 minutes ago, Gooch said:

Yep pretty much this. Never thought he had enough about him to win an election, but thought he would at least have ‘something’ about him. The guy just seems to exist in a vacuum watching the world go by. Stunning lack of charisma and relevance.

Yes. The truth is I didn't really have much of an idea about his politics or limitations. I expected a fairly dull politician that was largely apolitical. However, I thought he'd be a sharp operator and pretty ruthless against the Tories. 

 

I had low expectations and he's turned out to be much shitter than I thought. Was all of this worth crushing the left of the party for? A fucking empty suit fiddling around while Rome burns. Are the right wing press even bothering with him now? How are his cheerleaders at The Guardian propping him up? He's not giving them much. 

 

Who could have possibly predicted that the country wasn't crying out for a party led by Peter Mandelson and some focus groups. 

 

How utterly depressing. I suppose at least the next election is several years off. But as others have said, who the fuck could replace him even I'm a year or two? Labour need to break the bank and get someone in from abroad. 

[Jairzinho]

7 minutes ago, sir roger said:

If the long knives come for Starmer they will be held by centrist and rght wing hands , not the media bogey men like McCluskey.

 

[Gnasher]

The decision to attack Corbyn and the left seemed strange at the time, could it be killing Corbyn/Socialism for good was more important to the Labour right wing than giving itself a chance of winning the next election? 

 

 

 

[The Guest]

I think the point everyone here seems to be missing is that he’s not making fuck ups or being shit because he can’t help it or it’s some sort of accident.  He’s doing exactly what the right wing want him to do.  If he was following on from Blair, Brown or even Miliband nobody would be batting an eyelid about what he’s doing because it had become par for the course and the political consensus.  We’ve had a few years of genuine left wing policies and ideology put forward and it shows up how fucking laughable combatting right wing policies with a nod and an abstention is.

 

The idea that Labour are lacking “talent” is exactly the same fucking stupid argument that handed the Labour Party permanently back into the hands of the right wing.  As if Labours problem is not having someone intelligent and a good speaker available.  It wasn’t and never is.  The problem is the policy.  The problem for every normal working person in this country now is that the people in charge of Labour are never going to allow another left wing person anywhere near the position of leader again.  They won’t even allow a left wing person on a ballot to be a mayor in its most left wing city which tells you what the PLP will be looking like in the coming years.  Anyone who backed these cunts against the left did so without critically thinking what it would mean.  There were plenty of “intelligent” people doing it as well as we seen on here.  Funnily enough most of them are completely silent now.  They deserve it all.

[Section_31]

9 minutes ago, The Guest said:

I think the point everyone here seems to be missing is that he’s not making fuck ups or being shit because he can’t help it or it’s some sort of accident.  He’s doing exactly what the right wing want him to do.  If he was following on from Blair, Brown or even Miliband nobody would be batting an eyelid about what he’s doing because it had become par for the course and the political consensus.  We’ve had a few years of genuine left wing policies and ideology put forward and it shows up how fucking laughable combatting right wing policies with a nod and an abstention is.

 

The idea that Labour are lacking “talent” is exactly the same fucking stupid argument that handed the Labour Party permanently back into the hands of the right wing.  As if Labours problem is not having someone intelligent and a good speaker available.  It wasn’t and never is.  The problem is the policy.  The problem for every normal working person in this country now is that the people in charge of Labour are never going to allow another left wing person anywhere near the position of leader again.  They won’t even allow a left wing person on a ballot to be a mayor in its most left wing city which tells you what the PLP will be looking like in the coming years.  Anyone who backed these cunts against the left did so without critically thinking what it would mean.  There were plenty of “intelligent” people doing it as well as we seen on here.  Funnily enough most of them are completely silent now.  They deserve it all.

 

Dunno why it always has to turn into "my side's better than your side" shit, Starmer being shite doesn't stop Corbyn being shite, one has nothing to do with the other. I'd say there's a significant possibility that Long Bailey would have been shite too. Also, and this is the point that's always conveniently skirted around - Starmer was elected by a landslide of the party membership, so if you're going to say he was parachuted in by some neoliberal conspiracy, you are by extension saying the labour membership are suckers.

[Jairzinho]

17 minutes ago, The Guest said:

I think the point everyone here seems to be missing is that he’s not making fuck ups or being shit because he can’t help it or it’s some sort of accident.  He’s doing exactly what the right wing want him to do.  If he was following on from Blair, Brown or even Miliband nobody would be batting an eyelid about what he’s doing because it had become par for the course and the political consensus.  We’ve had a few years of genuine left wing policies and ideology put forward and it shows up how fucking laughable combatting right wing policies with a nod and an abstention is.

 

The idea that Labour are lacking “talent” is exactly the same fucking stupid argument that handed the Labour Party permanently back into the hands of the right wing.  As if Labours problem is not having someone intelligent and a good speaker available.  It wasn’t and never is.  The problem is the policy.  The problem for every normal working person in this country now is that the people in charge of Labour are never going to allow another left wing person anywhere near the position of leader again.  They won’t even allow a left wing person on a ballot to be a mayor in its most left wing city which tells you what the PLP will be looking like in the coming years.  Anyone who backed these cunts against the left did so without critically thinking what it would mean.  There were plenty of “intelligent” people doing it as well as we seen on here.  Funnily enough most of them are completely silent now.  They deserve it all.

I think it's perfectly possible that he's not particularly good at his job as well as obviously not having (or attempting to deliver) the same political ideology as you. It doesn't have to just be one thing or other.

 

And the party definitely lacks talent because Blair and Mandelson gutted it of an entire generation of socialists. So it's now a mixed bag of 65+ year old socialists, 45-60 years old weathervanes, and a younger group who are far too wet behind the ears. There should be a generation of 45-60 year old socialists in the party but they don't exist because they weren't allowed anywhere near it. As you have said.

[Jairzinho]

6 minutes ago, Section_31 said:

 

Also, and this is the point that's always conveniently skirted around - Starmer was elected by a landslide of the party membership, so if you're going to say he was parachuted in by some neoliberal conspiracy, you are by extension saying the labour membership are suckers.

I think to be fair a lot of the shenanigans happens before the point of "Here is turd number one and here is turd number two, don't tell us you didn't have a choice".

[The Guest]

4 minutes ago, Section_31 said:

 

Dunno why it always has to turn into "my side's better than your side" shit, Starmer being shite doesn't stop Corbyn being shite, one has nothing to do with the other. I'd say there's a significant possibility that Long Bailey would have been shite too. Also, and this is the point that's always conveniently skirted around - Starmer was elected by a landslide of the party membership, so if you're going to say he was parachuted in by some neoliberal conspiracy, you are by extension saying the labour membership are suckers.

I’m saying Starmer isn’t Shite just as Corbyn wasn’t Shite.  They take political positions and that dictates whether I agree with them or not.  People agreed with Corbyns political positions but fell for all the Shite that got spouted around him and judging by this post are still locked into this idea that how well they talk is relevant or important.  When they take the positions Starmer has done he could be Julius Caesar and it would still sound weak.

 

Starmer was parachuted in to his constituency and due to years of similar fixing behaviour by the right had no worthwhile experienced left wing opposition to compete against for leadership.  Had Corbyn been up against him he would have been soundly beaten.  It’s why he peddled all that 10 pledges bullshit which so many people clearly fell for.  I think the vast majority of the membership like yourself were completely clueless to the permanent damage they were doing by handing the keys back to the Blairite right wing cunts and how any small amount of power they had was going to be permanently removed.  It’s the reason Labour is now dead.  I think it’s slowly dawning on people what’s happened.  When and if Starmer actually resigns and we see the options put forward for the next leader it will truly hit home how bad this actually is.  You might even wake up at that point.

[Section_31]

14 minutes ago, Jairzinho said:

I think to be fair a lot of the shenanigans happens before the point of "Here is turd number one and here is turd number two, don't tell us you didn't have a choice".

Long Bailey was on the ballot though and got fucked off.

 

The problem in my view is people thinking they know what the labour party is and having opinions on what it should be.

 

I've said many times I only vote Labour because they're the only viable option, I'm indifferent to the rest of it, hate the meetings, hate the campaigning, although I've been involved in it.

 

What I have seen though since Corbyn became leader is that a lot of people joined purely because of him, from the greens or socialist fringe parties, then left when he stepped down.

 

The narrative has become that his was the true soul of the Labour party (even though he's spent his whole careers as a notorious political outsider and essentially a one man band) and that everyone other than him has undergone character assassination.

 

Kinnock was a sell out, Blair was a Tory, Brown was a Blairite (?!), Starmer is a right wing shill, voted for by a Labour membership who've clearly not understood socialism.

 

There seems to be a running them here that basically if you're not corbyn, you're no good, even if you won elections. 

 

Maybe "this" is the Labour party? And Corbyn's was the insurgency? Maybe Labour - due to its ties to unions and tens of thousands of people who want to keep their jobs, even in jobs like defence, value capitalism more than they do whatever progressive agenda someone who only joined in 2015 thinks they "should" embrace.

 

In my own personal view, the Labour party is largely a union movement and also a repository for everyone who doesn't vote Tory but wants a fighting chance at winning. For a party like that to function it needs broad appeal and a hell of a lot of give and take.

[Bruce Spanner]

1 hour ago, The Guest said:

I think the point everyone here seems to be missing is that he’s not making fuck ups or being shit because he can’t help it or it’s some sort of accident.  He’s doing exactly what the right wing want him to do (1).  If he was following on from Blair, Brown or even Miliband nobody would be batting an eyelid about what he’s doing because it had become par for the course and the political consensus.  We’ve had a few years of genuine left wing policies and ideology put forward and it shows up how fucking laughable combatting right wing policies with a nod and an abstention is (2)

 

The idea that Labour are lacking “talent” is exactly the same fucking stupid argument that handed the Labour Party permanently back into the hands of the right wing (3)  As if Labours problem is not having someone intelligent and a good speaker available.  It wasn’t and never is.  The problem is the policy.  The problem for every normal working person in this country now is that the people in charge of Labour are never going to allow another left wing person anywhere near the position of leader again (4).  They won’t even allow a left wing person on a ballot to be a mayor in its most left wing city which tells you what the PLP will be looking like in the coming years (5). Anyone who backed these cunts against the left did so without critically thinking what it would mean.  There were plenty of “intelligent” people doing it as well as we seen on here.  Funnily enough most of them are completely silent now.  They deserve it all (6)

 

(1) The Elites', who are these, Ashworth, Reynolds, Nandy, or is there a shadowy organistation pulling these 'neo-liberal' strings? I've had a drink with two of the above and if they're part of some NWO/Illuminate then they need better recruitment. Or, are these 'elites' a shadowy cabal of people who are looking to control a party that doesn't fucking win elections, and if so why?

 

If so I ask you to what end?

 

Is it to consolidate power and remove rights and regulations, if so why bother with carving up Labour intrinsically linked to the unions and reliant on their money, just join the Tories, their grassroots has less of a problem with this stuff, and cut out all the hard work. I mean if they were smart enough to usurp a political organisation, disrupt the discourse and take and consolidate power you're smart enough to fill out a tory MP election application, right?

 

This is all very Trump sounding, it's Ok to admit you've been suckered in by populist rhetoric. There are factions, yes, we agree, these factions vie for power, we agree, one of these factions, despite evidence showing that there are far more factions/groups/concerns than just a simple binary, that I see and you don't, is a malicious, mendacious cause for the destruction of the UK, that's where we disagree. You've opted for binary, us Vs them rhetoric which under inspection doesn't stand up and is a key indicator of confirmation bias/echo chamber 'logic', everything is distilled in to an us Vs them as it's them simpler to produce consistency in the mind. Are you right about policy, yes and no, as you'll cherry pick that which supports and ignore that which challenges. You are looking for victory in the mind where the isn't one, only agreements' and disagreements'. It makes you come across as a demented cunt who has no reason for alternative ideas as you've found yours and you're sticking with them. Are ‘they’ adopting more conservative fiscal policy, yes, do I agree not particularly, is it possible there is a middle ground, yes. My economics isn’t great, only a few courses at university, but even I know this country is in a fucking state and the idea of lending our way out of things isn't sound fiscal policy, but ‘socialism’ they’ll cry... 

 

This dialogue/rhetoric about shady elites is as old as time and there's never not a line of people queuing up to swallow it. There are people running the world, yes, there are people leaning on these people, there are people leaning on those people. That's the game, you can't change shit without understanding and acting on that and no amount of screaming in to the void will change that. The world exists as it is at this moment, it is the result trial and error, misjudgment and calamity, truth, reason and lies.

 

(2)  The appeal to moral authority/superiority. 'Only I know the real truth' and everybody else is wrong? No. You have your version of truth which has been through so many bias confirming filters that you can no longer accept that anything other than what you think is true is true, it's not. It has seeds of truth which bloom in to diseased flowers as you're giving them the wrong nutrients. Looking for evidence to prove yourself right and making sure others are wrong and you 'win'.  

 

And, please before you start, you know fuck all about me, what I do, what I support, what I campaign for or what I want to see, so kindly go fuck yourself, you haughty prick. I'm sure others will follow me in saying this. Another example of echo chamber bias group think, almost messianistic, wouldn't you agree, Oh Saviour?  

 

(3)  Disaster projecting, sow fear in the mind and the mind seeks salvation. You are just wrong here. What you're effectively saying is that whatever happens disaster follows and you'll produce evidence which confirms this, but obscure/ignore evidence which does not. So the argument runs that whatever the Tories do, this current iteration, the worst group of spivs ever, Labour would do worse and be worse? So they have hijacked the party to create a neoliberal system to do what exactly, be more like the party that is currently in power and is very good at keeping power and making sure their friends get paid? Again, why if they are so smart do they lose elections, elect unelectable leaders, balls everything up when they could just as easily join the Tories and be done with the pretense? It's most likely we're a bit shit at this, that people don't follow our message and the Tories are better equipped and supported to win elections/power.  

 

You're saying everyone, through NEC, MP's, to councilors etc are in on this? Despite Momentum stuffing councils and putting forward candidates for election, some of whom were successful despite the huge losses, you're saying that the neoliberal agenda is being pushed through by these incompetents cunts, or are people pulling the strings from afar, again delving in to conspiracy territory. I'd rather risk crony capitalism as at least the Tories can fulfil their end of the bargain and see through an idea. 

 

(4) Saviour, Oh Saviour! He wasn't. All depends how you define left wing I assume as it's a board fucking church, but to say 'never have a left wing leader again' shows the arrogance and the claim of ownership by the zealots. The reason we won't have another 'left wing' government is because it's rejected at election times, you can argue the reasons for this until the sun sets on humanity, but it won't and doesn't change a thing. The nation is introverted, right leaning and doesn't in the main, give a fuck about their fellow man. And 'us' as the left do not have a divine right to save these people. If you believe they need saving it just shows the arrogance of 'the left' trying to protect and save these exploited, put upon souls.

 

Maybe, just maybe they are selfish cunts who can't see the wood for the trees, but it's not our right to save them, we can only show them and try to convince them of our vision. To say that it was a last chance limits the argument. you are saying that all hope is gone and that this was 'the time' and only now, again falling back on to disaster tropes favoured by the extreme end of support to justify their, perceived, suffering.  

 

(5) 'I'm being persecuted'? That's assuming you are 'the left' and not one of many, with at times, contradictory beliefs. Oh, woe is fucking me, I'm being eradicated, pushed aside, shunned. Nothing but more rhetorical annihilation nonsense. You are being pushed as there's a new leader, democratically elected, like the last one, who's views, admittedly he's not doing well at setting out, you don't agree with. Now if this is because you disagree with them fine, I do as well, but you can't say that this has been thrust upon you and then refuse others the right to say Corbyn was thrust on them as both were democratically elected and Corbyn preferred heir was brushed aside as members, it would seem, needed a break form what had gone before, two seismic election defeats. You say people were suckered in, but exactly the same can be said of the previous leader, he wasn't what people thought he was, he was just a projection of their hopes and was sadly disappointing as leader.  

 

(6) You are creating a conspiracy to justify your anger at the current situation and you have found like minded people who will substantiate/further your thinking. That is literally the definition of a conspiracy cycle.  

 

By pulling at threads to find hidden meaning and motives you are proving to yourself that it's worth pulling at another thread.  

 

The truth is we're just shit at this, the Tories are better. Starmer isn't looking good, but he's the democratically elected leader and he will get my support until I can no longer justify it, like Corbyn, like Milliband, Brown and Blair before him. 

 

My patience isn't finite though. and it's being sorely tested. 

 

Now, you’ll come back with some ‘you’ll see’ or ‘well, if the playing field was level’ type arguments and you’ll produce articles to supports this, I in turn will give evidence to show that one is as guilty as the other, it gets nowhere as the dye is cast. 

[Bruce Spanner]

1 minute ago, Istvan Kuntstain said:

^ That's like an article from the Athletic

 

Just needs a quote from the tealady.

[Jairzinho]

38 minutes ago, Section_31 said:

Long Bailey was on the ballot though and got fucked off.

 

The problem in my view is people thinking they know what the labour party is and having opinions on what it should be.

 

I've said many times I only vote Labour because they're the only viable option, I'm indifferent to the rest of it, hate the meetings, hate the campaigning, although I've been involved in it.

 

What I have seen though since Corbyn became leader is that a lot of people joined purely because of him, from the greens or socialist fringe parties, then left when he stepped down.

 

The narrative has become that his was the true soul of the Labour party (even though he's spent his whole careers as a notorious political outsider and essentially a one man band) and that everyone other than him has undergone character assassination.

 

Kinnock was a sell out, Blair was a Tory, Brown was a Blairite (?!), Starmer is a right wing shill, voted for by a Labour membership who've clearly not understood socialism.

 

There seems to be a running them here that basically if you're not corbyn, you're no good, even if you won elections. 

 

Maybe "this" is the Labour party? And Corbyn's was the insurgency? Maybe Labour - due to its ties to unions and tens of thousands of people who want to keep their jobs, even in jobs like defence, value capitalism more than they do whatever progressive agenda someone who only joined in 2015 thinks they "should" embrace.

 

In my own personal view, the Labour party is largely a union movement and also a repository for everyone who doesn't vote Tory but wants a fighting chance at winning. For a party like that to function it needs broad appeal and a hell of a lot of give and take.

Yeah, and Bailey was shite. I think the problem there, as has been discussed, is simply the paucity of choice from all wings of the party.

 

I've got no fucking idea what the Labour Party is now. It has been fucked by cultural and social stuff taking centre stage. They now have to try and represent often diametrically opposed demographics. I don't think the broad appeal stuff can work, nor do I think it ever has. The Blair years weren't all sides liking his politics. It was the left putting up with it for a decade (less so with each passing election). 

 

They need to shape politics like the Tories have. 

[Chairman Meow]

15 hours ago, Jairzinho said:

His tactic appears to be hoping Brexit and the economic fallout of Coronavirus are sufficiently atrocious. 

 

He doesn't seem to say anything...about anything. 

This is my issue with him right now. I still have absolutely no idea what he actually stands for.