Is it safe to come out yet? - by John Brennan

[smilezzz]

Yeah. Let's fuck off the only one of our past 4 managers who actually has some pedigree in the modern game.

[magicrat]

It was a long winded piece but the central tenet of his argument was that  our shit defence is still shit and Klopp has had more than enough time and funds to address this issue, Hard to argue that's not correct.

[magicrat]

It was a long winded piece but the central tenet of his argument was that  our shit defence is still shit and Klopp has had more than enough time and funds to address this issue, Hard to argue that's not correct.

[an tha]

It was a long winded piece but the central tenet of his argument was that our shit defence is still shit and Klopp has had more than enough time and funds to address this issue, Hard to argue that's not correct.

Is right

[Einch]

He's signed Matip, Klaven and Robertson. I'm not sure what he's trying to do with that part of the team. It's not been enough. The tone of the OP doesn't sit right with me either.

[magicrat]

He's signed Matip, Klaven and Robertson. I'm not sure what he's trying to do with that part of the team. It's not been enough. The tone of the OP doesn't sit right with me either.

 

They are not even first choice yet we have spent big to get Ox, Mane, Salah, Keita.  Where's the tried and tested formula of identifying the problems and then prioritising them. I have not lost faith in Klopp but he needs to spare me the pain of listening to him telling me that we have two good goalkeepers and that individual defenders are not the problem when my eyes are telling me the exact opposite,. 

[Brownie]

I'm not quite of the same view as John but he raises some very fair points so it's disappointing to see some people just completely dismissing the piece.

 

I really like Klopp, he seems like a really decent bloke and he's got us back into the CL.

 

It is absolutely fair to question our defensive record under him though. We can't just ignore it.

[Einch]

They are not even first choice yet we have spent big to get Ox, Mane, Salah, Keita.  Where's the tried and tested formula of identifying the problems and then prioritising them. I have not lost faith in Klopp but he needs to spare me the pain of listening to him telling me that we have two good goalkeepers and that individual defenders are not the problem when my eyes are telling me the exact opposite,.

 

I named the signings and pointed out that it was not enough. Did you miss that bit?

[Duff Man]

He's been here over two years and defensively we've barely improved at all. Worse still, it doesn't look like changing any time soon. Hard not to be concerned by that.

[Kevin D]

My sense is that generally among the fanbase, Klopp has a 90/10 approval rating, but within Anfield something closer to 70/30. Anfield is decidedly older, has seen better, is tired of false dawns and is being financially raped(highest ticket prices outside London). There also seems to be a culture clash with the manager; he thinks they ought to be louder, they think it's a bit rich for a 7m a year manager to be gesturing at them.

 

John's position is wrong, but it should probably be aired.

[s(k)aturation]

I loved Klopp when he arrived.  I suspect most of the fans did.

 

Honeymoons are like that.

 

Then he did that weird curtain call to the Kop after a 2-2 draw with WBA I think.

 

Then I think he had a dig at fans for that leave-early protest against outrageous ticket prices, and was annoyed they left early when we gave up a lead to Sunderland (was that the same game?)

 

Then he didn't like the fans chanting his name - it was about the players he said - when he is clearly the club's best asset and the fans know and want to acknowledge it.

 

And yet when he orgasmically turns to them and pumps his fist during the game, they are meant to orgasmically respond.  And on the promo on LFC TV last year, his voice-over says his job and the team's job is to make "fans' lives better".

 

I'd love him to succeed as manager, hopefully he will.  And I like him fine.

 

But (and Paul's point 7 might be right)... if it is about "knobheadery", that can always cut both ways.  Jurgen is not above it himself.  

 

And unlike the fans, who have to pay to be knobheads, he gets paid for the privilege.

[G Richards]

The concerns about the defence and the need of another signing or two are obvious points that practically everyone has made. It's the snide stuff against the manager that rankles with me, as well as the lack of fairness about the progress the team as a whole is making under Klopp, as evidenced by CL qualification when 6th-8th was becoming the norm. It seems unsporting to me, and it's cheap to say stuff like "Cheerleader in Chief."

[s(k)aturation]

The concerns about the defence and the need of another signing or two are obvious points that practically everyone has made. It's the snide stuff against the manager that rankles with me, as well as the lack of fairness about the progress the team as a whole is making under Klopp, as evidenced by CL qualification when 6th-8th was becoming the norm. It seems unsporting to me, and it's cheap to say stuff like "Cheerleader in Chief."

 

 

Rev, I think there's a deliberately irksome and snarky tone being taken by John here.  

To make his points, however right or wrong.

His other articles have been a bit that way too.

It's a stylised tone that's quite purposefully cynical and provocative I'd suggest.

I wouldn't read too much into it.  

It's the internet, and I suspect to a significant degree it's designed to provoke reading, response and dare I say, discussion.

It's no biggy and not hate speech.

And, for instance, it has helped generate Paul's 7-point reflection, which I think is a very interesting and worthwhile opinion/observation.

[Bobby Hundreds]

I like to rant and go over the top in match threads or even immediately after a bad result it's cathartic but overall I think we are heading in the right direction it's often 2 steps forward one step back or we stand still for a while. We need to be patient and see where the manager is going with the side. Overall and I include myself in this but we've become insanely negative and fearful as fans, really we need to chill the fuck out not look at this season like it's imperative we win everything or the world is over.

[VladimirIlyich]

I had a feeling getting to those two finals in his first season was going to lead to suggestions of 'peaking too early.' Maybe it has and made him fair game for some?

[stringvest]

Successful managers do peak early by and large. It then becomes a model of diminishing returns, increasing frustration, disillusionment and bitterness on both sides. Successful managers that dont peak early usually become legends at the club.

[clangers]

My sense is that generally among the fanbase, Klopp has a 90/10 approval rating, but within Anfield something closer to 70/30. Anfield is decidedly older, has seen better, is tired of false dawns and is being financially raped(highest ticket prices outside London). There also seems to be a culture clash with the manager; he thinks they ought to be louder, they think it's a bit rich for a 7m a year manager to be gesturing at them.

 

I think that might be spot on, I've only been able to get to just over half a dozen games this year but I've got that sense as well.

 

There's just a frustration that we're really not that far away from being a very, very good side and Klopp maybe doesn't see what's required? I still really like him, I just hope his obvious lack of pragmatism isn't his undoing in the long run.

[dave u]

Am just about done with this website. 

 

Because someone wrote an article you disagree with? 

 

The quality control for articles on this site is almost as bad as the Guardian's.

 

Quality control? Well given that it was a superbly written piece regardless of whether you agree or disagree with the opinion being expressed, i can only assume by quality control you mean that I should only be publishing articles that you agree with?

 

Why no 'editorial' after the Arsenal game?

 

It's not an editorial. If it was an editorial it would have been written by me, the editor. Would have thought that was fairly obvious really, especially for someone who has been on here as long as you have.

 

For the record, there was content published after the Arsenal game. There was the match report for the site (written by me, so you could call that one 'editorial' if you like) and another reaction piece written by Julian. That wasn't an 'editorial', just like John's it was just something written for the site by a long standing forum member and fanzine contributor. 

 

Just because an article is published on here doesn't mean it is TLW's 'official' stance, and if you want to write something making the complete opposite points to John then go ahead and I'll happily publish it, as that's the entire point of a fanzine / fansite.

[The Guest]

I'm not quite of the same view as John but he raises some very fair points so it's disappointing to see some people just completely dismissing the piece.

 

I really like Klopp, he seems like a really decent bloke and he's got us back into the CL.

 

It is absolutely fair to question our defensive record under him though. We can't just ignore it.

It's the tone and the fact there's clearly a bit of an agenda of wanting him gone in the piece. That's what I took from it. He does make some good points but it's then surrounded by some complete shite. I don't think anybody is happy with not improving the defenceAnd I do think agree with him that we signed Chamberlain because we had t signed Van Dijk or Lemar in the end and needed something to stop the fans going mental.

 

Klopp does get criticised and plenty of people on here and at the ground will generally agree with his faults. I haven't heard one person say "well would you prefer to go back the 6-1 v Stoke." I also haven't heard anyone talk about going back to the drab days under Rafa or Ged either but let's go there. The fellas won trophies and some pretty big ones but both in the end went backwards. Every fan wants to win trophies but if you aren't winning trophies then you at least want to enjoy the match. In the years we didn't win anything under those 2 and there were plenty of them we played some pretty dour stuff.

 

When you read stuff like that it just seems to be written as WUM material for the fans who enjoy the fact we play attacking football and can batter the best teams around instead of just nullifying them. That's not to say nullifying them isn't great when you win stuff but there's just something better about going toe to toe with these teams who spend a lot more and attract better players and beating them at their own game.

 

No manager is perfect and some criticisms of Klopp are clearly justified. Some of the things in this piece though are laughable for me.

[stringvest]

John's not written that piece for himself.  He's written it to get a reaction.  And it's working.

[s(k)aturation]

Because someone wrote an article you disagree with? 

 

"Opposite" views don't go down well with some on TLW nowadays, Dave.

[Bobby Hundreds]

Better opposing views than Rawk Korea lockdowns. They cant even name a transfer thread without it being condescending and beneath them.

[Brownie]

It's the tone and the fact there's clearly a bit of an agenda of wanting him gone in the piece. That's what I took from it. He does make some good points but it's then surrounded by some complete shite. I don't think anybody is happy with not improving the defenceAnd I do think agree with him that we signed Chamberlain because we had t signed Van Dijk or Lemar in the end and needed something to stop the fans going mental.

 

Klopp does get criticised and plenty of people on here and at the ground will generally agree with his faults. I haven't heard one person say "well would you prefer to go back the 6-1 v Stoke." I also haven't heard anyone talk about going back to the drab days under Rafa or Ged either but let's go there. The fellas won trophies and some pretty big ones but both in the end went backwards. Every fan wants to win trophies but if you aren't winning trophies then you at least want to enjoy the match. In the years we didn't win anything under those 2 and there were plenty of them we played some pretty dour stuff.

 

When you read stuff like that it just seems to be written as WUM material for the fans who enjoy the fact we play attacking football and can batter the best teams around instead of just nullifying them. That's not to say nullifying them isn't great when you win stuff but there's just something better about going toe to toe with these teams who spend a lot more and attract better players and beating them at their own game.

 

No manager is perfect and some criticisms of Klopp are clearly justified. Some of the things in this piece though are laughable for me.

The tone didn't really register with me to be honest because that's John's style of writing; always has been!

 

I guess it may have been a bit jarring for people who haven't read his stuff before.

[johnb]

Snarky? Cynical? Sassy? "That's football!"

 

I'll try to be more deferential to Our Great Leader in future. No, really.

 

You know, the one who's said the following in the last 24 hours (while speaking of our "defence"):

 

"It’s not a quality [issue]. It’s a little bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy. Everybody concedes goals. We’ve had a lot of games with a decent defensive performances. It would be easy to look at this team and say how exciting they play, but we’re always looking for one thing we can be angry about, not happy with."

 

"Not a quality issue"? Matip, Lovren, Klavan? I think it is a quality issue.

"Self-fulfilling prophecy"? NINETY conceded in 72 League games. 13 in seven games this season. "Prophecy"? Seriously?

"Decent defensive performances in a lot of games"? Can somebody think of just three off the top of their head?

"Always looking to be angry"? Deal with it! You've still got 90% of the support with you (cf. this forum!).

[an tha]

I loved Klopp when he arrived. I suspect most of the fans did.

 

Honeymoons are like that.

 

Then he did that weird curtain call to the Kop after a 2-2 draw with WBA I think.

 

Then I think he had a dig at fans for that leave-early protest against outrageous ticket prices, and was annoyed they left early when we gave up a lead to Sunderland (was that the same game?)

 

Then he didn't like the fans chanting his name - it was about the players he said - when he is clearly the club's best asset and the fans know and want to acknowledge it.

 

And yet when he orgasmically turns to them and pumps his fist during the game, they are meant to orgasmically respond. And on the promo on LFC TV last year, his voice-over says his job and the team's job is to make "fans' lives better".

 

I'd love him to succeed as manager, hopefully he will. And I like him fine.

 

But (and Paul's point 7 might be right)... if it is about "knobheadery", that can always cut both ways. Jurgen is not above it himself.

 

And unlike the fans, who have to pay to be knobheads, he gets paid for the privilege.

I think you have to cut him some slack when it comes to the fans stuff.

 

He is from a place with a totally different fan culture and he would have beem fed the myth of the Anfield atmosphere as well.

 

All those years at Dortmund and in Germany generally and it must take a while to get used to how different it is here and be quite a shock to come here and experience something so far removed from what he had in Dortmund.