The Poppy appeal

[TheResonator]

Democracy is an illusion. It's an ideology that not only doesn't work in practice, but actually doesn't even work in theory. There is no real choice, only a couple of alternatives, and as such we cannot be held accountable for the outcomes.

 

I agree with you, in part, on democracy, but I disagree with your assessment on accountability. I think people are accountable for everything they do and everything they condone and tolerate on their behalf.

 

I don't justify killing but if you believe that democracy doesn't exist and that every government is essentially dictatorial then we lose every ethical right to condemn the act of a populace, and if we believe that it is impossible to do anything but accept the will of the people who lead us then we also lose the right to pillory those who kill on their orders, because they are operating on exactly the same principle that we are.

[Elmyn Noos]

I agree with you, in part, on democracy, but I disagree with your assessment on accountability. I think people are accountable for everything they do and everything they condone and tolerate on their behalf.

 

I don't justify killing but if you believe that democracy doesn't exist and that every government is essentially dictatorial then we lose every ethical right to condemn the act of a populace, and if we believe that it is impossible to do anything but accept the will of the people who lead us then we also lose the right to pillory those who kill on their orders, because they are operating on exactly the same principle that we are.

 

I agree with you, in part, that part being the part where you agreed with me. The rest I'm struggling with. You cannot deduce that democracy does exist merely because it not existing would deprive you of a right to judge or condemn a populace. There's a big leap from apathy and/or resignation that there's very little we can do as individuals, to acceptance that killing on orders not only abdicates responsibility but also is beyond condemnation, expecially when the killers are not conscripts, but actively chose their path and are paid for it.

[stringvest]

Don't you think at heart, we all just want a warm place to fuck and eat? The rest of it is window dressing.

 

no wonder you're banned from McDonalds.

[stringvest]

I didn't get to the bottom.

 

That really would have been too much. Even for the corner of Lord Street.

[Section_31]

Fucking speachless when I saw this. "The battle is on to win a million", "celebrities are going above and beyond the call of duty".

 

Millionaire - Millionaire Remembrance Special

 

Do they really not see the disrespect in calling something like this a battle? It'd just unreal. If we don't see a disabled squaddie on the X Factor this weekend and a round of applause by the judges I'll be absolutely staggered.

[Lee909]

Personally I will stop putting any money into the appeal at all soon. For me we have only been involved in one war that was a necessary evil and most who fought in that will not be around much longer. The first world war was just the rich and powerful nations squabbling over land and forcing the young into fighting for them.There was little need for the wars since 1945.

[VladimirIlyich]

Personally I will stop putting any money into the appeal at all soon. For me we have only been involved in one war that was a necessary evil and most who fought in that will not be around much longer. The first world war was just the rich and powerful nations squabbling over land and forcing the young into fighting for them.There was little need for the wars since 1945.

 

Hence my loathing of the royals and the ruling class. The first world war is a prime example of keeping the lower classes ignorant and uneducated before turning them into cannon fodder.

[dennis tooth]

Yeah am not buying any poppies or giving money to the RBL basically cos all the first world oners are now goners and the world war twoers are similarly rare they must all be millionaires by now so that leaves the modern limbless cunts who decided it would be a good idea to take part in some suppression somewhere and the government who sent them decided to allow a charity to take care of the vegetables left over from the spoils of wars.

Get a fucking job you warmongering limblless vegetables and stop wasting my taxes on wars and the injuries of war and the mental scars and then have the temerity to ask me to wear a poppie and give you some more fucking money cos the money the government paid you in my taxes 'wasnt enough', take your surviival skills to Somalia and dont let the door hit you on your schrapnelled arse on the way out.

[Magic Sponge]

Yeah am not buying any poppies or giving money to the RBL basically cos all the first world oners are now goners and the world war twoers are similarly rare they must all be millionaires by now so that leaves the modern limbless cunts who decided it would be a good idea to take part in some suppression somewhere and the government who sent them decided to allow a charity to take care of the vegetables left over from the spoils of wars.

Get a fucking job you warmongering limblless vegetables and stop wasting my taxes on wars and the injuries of war and the mental scars and then have the temerity to ask me to wear a poppie and give you some more fucking money cos the money the government paid you in my taxes 'wasnt enough', take your surviival skills to Somalia and dont let the door hit you on your schrapnelled arse on the way out.

 

I hope that the rep that certain posters will no doubt give you for this post, goes some way to ease your deep lying pain and anger towards our military.

[dennis tooth]

I hope that the rep that certain posters will no doubt give you for this post, goes some way to ease your deep lying pain and anger towards our military.

 

I dont do it for the reps or the negs, in fact, if Im not getting negs then am not taking it serious enough. I dont have any pain or anger towards 'our military' because its not 'our military' its the powerful's military, we just pay for it.

[Jose Jones]

I'm sure everyone on here had rellies who fought and died in the first and second world wars, and I always felt that the poppy appeal was not only supporting those old soldiers and their families, but also about paying respect to the stupid futility and horror of war and deaths of people of all sides.

 

I also generally feel sorry for the poor bastards sent off to fight in Afghanistan or Iraq who come back to the UK maimed and psychologically fucked up and don't really mind funding support for them. I don't care that they volunteered for it, or that the UK were the agressors. They still face a shit life for decisions that weren't down to them.

I feel sorry for the population of the country they were fighting in too, the innocent kids killed the pointless waste of life, the fuckers with no other choice but to fight, or those wanting to prevent their country from being occupied by foreign forces.

 

Still I hadn't realised how war mongery the poppy appeal had got. I know it's F******l related but that sports minister saying "Wearing a poppy is a display of national pride, just like wearing your country's football shirt." Is it bollocks.

[Tom R]

Whatever your opinion of wearing a poppy on a personal and private level, have a little look at this picture of my Grandad (George, 3rd from left) and his FIVE brothers who all CHOSE to go to war after a German bomb hit a street in Bootle.

Even if you can't appreciate the bravery or empathise with their situation at the time, it's a cracking piece of history, and according to the (albeit limited) research I've done so far it's one of only 2 examples anywhere of 6 brothers all going to war and all coming home.

 

I'll wear my poppy for them and I'll be proud as fuck. That'll do for me.

 

nobody should be forced to wear one, but if you choose to NOT buy one then you should look in the the eyes of my Great Uncles Chris, Johnny, Bobby, Billy, Harry and my Grandad George.

 

They were all pretty much the age of most of us on here; 17-mid 30s.

 

What the fuck have any of us done that compares to what they did?

Seriously.

Have a word with yourselves. And buy a fucking poppy you pricks.

 

[Guest Numero Veinticinco]

Second from the left is Andy Garcia and him on the right is Oscar Wilde. You come from good stock, Tom, I'll give you that.

[Elmyn Noos]

Whatever your opinion of wearing a poppy on a personal and private level, have a little look at this picture of my Grandad (George, 3rd from left) and his FIVE brothers who all CHOSE to go to war after a German bomb hit a street in Bootle.

Even if you can't appreciate the bravery or empathise with their situation at the time, it's a cracking piece of history, and according to the (albeit limited) research I've done so far it's one of only 2 examples anywhere of 6 brothers all going to war and all coming home.

 

I'll wear my poppy for them and I'll be proud as fuck. That'll do for me.

 

nobody should be forced to wear one, but if you choose to NOT buy one then you should look in the the eyes of my Great Uncles Chris, Johnny, Bobby, Billy, Harry and my Grandad George.

 

They were all pretty much the age of most of us on here; 17-mid 30s.

 

What the fuck have any of us done that compares to what they did?

Seriously.

Have a word with yourselves. And buy a fucking poppy you pricks.

 

 

If the poppy was just for them and their comrades, Tom, I'd buy one. Different times, different wars fought by different soldiers. The poppy has been hijacked and it's a real shame.

[bossy]

In my shop we sell the white poppies. If the BL brought in their red ones we'd sell them too but they haven't. My grandparents fought in the world wars and I'm proud of them but I'm not enamoured of the patriots screaming for your blood if you don't wear one. If we have any rights, the right to not have to wear something has to be an essential element. Patriots put me off patriotism.

[Trumo]

I've just posted about this on the FF thread. You can be respectful to those that lost their lives WITHOUT the need to buy a poppy. However, too many do-gooders want to make a big deal out of what is really a small but symbolic gesture, and so all of a sudden you get people in the media and on social networking sites claiming that those who are against the poppy appeal or choose not to wear one as being disrespectful to those who lost their lives. Maybe it's just the media age.

[Sugar Ape]

I wonder how much extra money all this ' celebrity poppy ' culture is bringing in. The reasons behing the poppy are getting blurred, get I bet more and more money is pouring in every year.

 

Me personally, I buy a poppy and I have no problem if it goes towards someone who lost a limb in Iraq or Afghanistan or wherever.

What percentage of our armed forces are lads with no real options in life recruited from council estates in Oldham or Bradford or wherever? I reserve my anger for the people who send them into these wars, not the soldiers themselves.

[Elmyn Noos]

I wonder how much extra money all this ' celebrity poppy ' culture is bringing in. The reasons behing the poppy are getting blurred, get I bet more and more money is pouring in every year.

 

Me personally, I buy a poppy and I have no problem if it goes towards someone who lost a limb in Iraq or Afghanistan or wherever.

What percentage of our armed forces are lads with no real options in life recruited from council estates in Oldham or Bradford or wherever? I reserve my anger for the people who send them into these wars, not the soldiers themselves.

 

Sorry old boy, but that's Help for Heroes style nonsense. No real options but to join the army? NO options? At all?? Bar the last couple of years we've enjoyed a boom period of virtually full employment. How could those injured in Iraq claim to have had no options? Even now, there is always an option. Nobody forces them into the army. They are not victims.

[RobbieOR]

Sorry old boy, but that's Help for Heroes style nonsense. No real options but to join the army? NO options? At all?? Bar the last couple of years we've enjoyed a boom period of virtually full employment. How could those injured in Iraq claim to have had no options? Even now, there is always an option. Nobody forces them into the army. They are not victims.

 

That is spot on.

[Sugar Ape]

No it's not right in a lot of cases. Loads of them are from deprived backgrounds. They are sold that life in the army is best for them. ' travel the world. ' We are hardly talking nuclear physicists weighing up whats right and wrong here. They are little more than kids.

 

To be fair the ' I've got no sympathy at all for them when they die ' brigade are just as bad as the ' help the heroes ' brigade.

The truth is somewhere in the middle, and whilst I don't condone everything out armed forces do I won't begrudge some poor twat who got his foot blown off in afghanistan getting a replacement.

[Guest davelfc]

Just to balance Tom's story.

 

My grandad was killed in the war his daughter born in Liverpool and while my grandmother gave birth to her their house was completely destroyed by a bomb.

 

A whip round bought her some baby clothes and they had to find somewhere to live. No father, almost no possessions having lost everything.

 

My grandmother went in desperation to the british legion who gave her the total sum of fuck all. Hence as a young child I was discouraged from wearing a poppy.

 

I wore one in the forces and I of course choose my own way to remember the lives of servicemen and women killed while serving their country. People can argue as much as they like about bravery and such like but most civvies would shit their pants if called upon to do a fraction of what they do.

 

I won't give a penny of my money to the british legion in memory of my grandfather, killed in the war and ignored by that charity. That's my choice, if you don't want to buy a poppy then do not, ignore those that say you should, it might make them feel a little less guilty if they throw money at a charity but some of us know better.

[Lee909]

The thing that is a bloody disgrace is there is a charity to get limb replacements etc for wounded personnel.Surely the least the MOD could do is get them fit and healthy with prosthetics before discharging them.

[Sugar Ape]

The thing that is a bloody disgrace is there is a charity to get limb replacements etc for wounded personnel.Surely the least the MOD could do is get them fit and healthy with prosthetics before discharging them.

 

Couldn't agree more. To be clear I'm not happy with the recent wars we have been in, but I don't put most of the blame for that on the soldiers there. If money from me buying a poppy goes to helping them I'm fine with that.

[melons]

Bossy's post, spot on.

 

 

Sorry old boy, but that's Help for Heroes style nonsense. No real options but to join the army? NO options? At all?? Bar the last couple of years we've enjoyed a boom period of virtually full employment. How could those injured in Iraq claim to have had no options? Even now, there is always an option. Nobody forces them into the army. They are not victims.

 

I disagree, you're conditioned into what life will offer you. It's almost programmed from a young age that there are limited ways out of what ever sink hole estate you're in. You get to go out, see the world earn a decent wage (any job near you is sure fire minimum wage) learn a skill, leave with a trade that'll ensure you of a job on civvy st. At 16/17 most uneducated kids will believe this. You're not reminded about the horrors, you're not told oh yeah you're replaceable so we're sending you off to *insert war place* where you'll be shot at, expected to kill ect.

 

Kids are cottoning on to the army being dangerous so they join another force, the RAF or the Navy. It's still seen as an escapism.

 

For a while in high school i had it in my head to join the RAF, i saw it as an option to ensure i didn't end up in the same position as most of my peers. Low and behold i didn't. I'm now a single mum, on a council estate, on means tested benefits. The forces are an option and one of the most plausible.

 

With regard to the poppy no one should be saying they're the victims of war as such, they're indeed the victims of a corrupt government and of inadequate funding, training and support. The poppy appeal was seen to meet the short fall of the government. Surely it's those that people should be pissed at?

[VladimirIlyich]

It seems a lot of our opinions are swayed by our familys experiences during the 2 world wars.

Considering Liverpool was the most bombed city in the north and the second or third in the whole of the country between 41-45 its no surprise that we can all quote stories of losing family members or having some sign up.

I agree a bit with Mr Ape in saying that a lot of our modern soldiers,although not volunteers are largely poorly educated and come from areas where the army seems a good choice for them.

I also reserve my hate for the people that send them there rather than the soldiers themselves.