Juventus fan talks about Heysel.

[The Chief]

From todays Echo, I thought it was a really interesting read, some of the things he says make sense, some of it is quite surprising. See what you think:

 

“It’s difficult to think of forgiveness” - a Juventus Ultra fan talks of the feelings which still exist in Italy 25 years after Heysel

May 27 2010 by Luke Traynor, Liverpool Echo

 

CHIEF reporter LUKE TRAYNOR talks to a member of Drughi, a faction of the Juventus hardcore support, about their feelings on Heysel and longstanding attitude towards Liverpool.

 

Drughi are a well-known movement of the club’s Ultras, the name inspired by the dark Stanley Kubrick cinematic classic, A Clockwork Orange.

 

The 32-year-old, who wanted to remain anonymous, explains how resentment and anger still remains in Turin.

 

“I WASN’T in Heysel. I’ve a small memory of the final as a child when I saw the match on TV with my father, a big Juventus supporter.

 

“I didn’t remember all the tragedy, but I have an image of that day in my mind...the team next to the Ultras, with some police.

 

“I know some people who went to Heysel, but they all watched the match from zones N or M, opposite the neutral Z zone.

 

“They remember the tragedy with a lot of pain, some even with fear (not the Ultras), but mostly the Ultra bosses are furious about it.

 

“You can see from the TV pictures how some Italian fans went on the pitch and tried to confront the Liverpool firms.

 

“Some of them on the pitch were very young. These were the first Juventus ‘crews’ in Italy. The guy arrested with the rocket launcher, for example, was a teenager.

 

“Juventus Ultras hate Liverpool supporters. Forgiveness is something they cannot contemplate.

 

“Reconciliation is impossible for them. Liverpool are the enemy Number 1. For those Italians at Heysel, those now in their 40s, revenge was uppermost in their minds in the years after the tragedy.

 

“For normal Juventus fans, it’s different. It’s not a hatred of Liverpool fans, it’s more a dislike.

 

“But while a reconciliation between the most hardcore of the Liverpool and Juve fans is a distant dream, maybe it’s possible between normal fans.

 

“For our Ultras, like in the UK or other parts of Europe, pride, anger are our main feelings. It’s strange, but as we all know, football is like a war.

 

“It’s difficult to say what could have prevented Heysel. In the hours leading up to the match, trouble broke out in the city between rival Juve and Liverpool firms.

 

“There was too much drunkenness in Brussels that terrible day.

 

“But the main factor was the stadium, and in particular, the security. The Belgian policemen and authorities didn’t exist. Heysel wasn’t a stad And Liverpool fans had their share of the blame.

 

“They followed the traditional English hooligan ways of the 1970s and 1980s, ‘taking the end’ against helpless supporters, and not against the hooligans.

 

“Alcohol wasn’t the only factor. The previous year, in 1984 [the European Cup Final in Rome] some Liverpool fans were stabbed and maybe they were still angry with Italian fans.

 

“But the main problem was the Heysel stadium. It was too old. In a better stadium, there would have been trouble, but not a tragedy.

 

“They were scared, and they panicked. If Ultras had been up against Liverpool fans, there would have been fighting, but not deaths.

 

“In the neutral Z section, there were normal Italian fans, not Ultras, or ‘top boys. “After what happened it wasn’t right to play the match. But there are two schools of thought in Italy.

 

“Those who lived through Heysel, and the Ultras, who both think the cup should be returned to UEFA.

 

“For the Ultras, the 1985 European trophy doesn’t exist. It’s a bloody cup.

 

“For the other people, the millions of Juve supporters who only watch their team on TV, that cup is good.

 

“In Turin, and other parts of Italy, millions of supporters went out into the street to celebrate. It was disgusting. In 2005, when Juventus played Liverpool at Anfield, some fans turned their backs during the Liverpool tribute.

 

“I was at Anfield, and I turned my back to the pitch. My generation grew up with hate towards Liverpool. No Ultras went to change scarves with Liverpool fans that day.

 

“The Ultras didn’t go to Liverpool to make peace. For 25 years, Italians Ultras have had to put up with opposing teams singing ‘Liverpool Liverpool!’ at matches.

 

“Rival fans buy Liverpool shirts and scarves to mock us. It’s sad but true.

 

“The Heysel tragedy is the most important event for every Juventus supporter. Every year, the Ultras make banners in their memory.

 

“The most memorable Juventus moment was the Champions League Final in 1996 [held in Rome, Juventus beat Ajax on penalties]. But just as important is the match closest to the Heysel anniversary.

 

“The victims of the tragedy are martyrs. The 29th of May is a sad day for people of every age who follow Juventus.

 

“We take it to our hearts. A crew of Ultras mark what happened in front of a tombstone at Heysel every year.

 

“This year, there will a very special event to pay respect to the 39 fans who died.

 

“If you watch the video of Beppe Rossi, the historical leader of Juventus Ultras, in the film Ragazzi di Stadio, he spoke about Liverpool’s Kop.

 

“He told of the scarves on the Kop, the volume. Many Ultras movements in Italy watch English football and in particular Liverpool.

 

“The generation of guys born in the 60s in Italy loved Liverpool. It’s a love and hate relationship.

 

“It’s not easy to explain.”

 

Understandably they lay most of the blame on Liverpool fans, no gripes about that, but I find it surprising is the fact they blame the policing and stadium, and understand that it would never have happened in a decent stadium.

 

What I find really surprising is the fact that millions of people were on the streets dancing when they won.

 

Also the fact he says we were really liked by them before that horrible night, in fact, I remember there were Juventus supporters in Rome in our end shouting for us and asking us to shout "Juve" at the Roma fans.

[Fugitive]

Very interesting read that and surprising in a lot of ways. My old man still thinks it was Rome 84 that set this all off. He was in Rome and said it was iffy as fuck and a lot of people were left seething after it.

 

It's one of the reasons he didn't go to Heysel.

[Dicko]

Very interesting read that and surprising in a lot of ways. My old man still thinks it was Rome 84 that set this all off. He was in Rome and said it was iffy as fuck and a lot of people were left seething after it.

 

It's one of the reasons he didn't go to Heysel.

 

No wonder Tony B's lost all his hair.

[Antynwa]

I wasn't around when Heysel happened so forgive my ignorance.

 

I know about what happened that day, the role that Liverpool Fans played, but IMO we never really have accepted responsibility for what happened, that being said neither have some Juventus fans.

 

But the finger pointing be it at UEFA, the stadium or Police, I just don't see how we have accepted our role in what happened.

 

Once more, forgive my ignorance, but I still believe as shameful as that day was for this club, I just don't see what we are doing to remember the 39 and the role we played that day.

[RobbieOR]

I was in Amsterdam when they were playing Ajax earlier on in the season and there was a good few of them walking around the city centre. Usually I would try and talk to football fans like that but with Juve fans I wouldnt dare mention Im a Liverpool supporter.

[Flying Pig]

Its sad that now, over 25 years later, that poor policing and UEFA's incompetance are still causing problems.

[The Chief]

I wasn't around when Heysel happened so forgive my ignorance.

 

I know about what happened that day, the role that Liverpool Fans played, but IMO we never really have accepted responsibility for what happened, that being said neither have some Juventus fans.

 

But the finger pointing be it at UEFA, the stadium or Police, I just don't see how we have accepted our role in what happened.

 

Once more, forgive my ignorance, but I still believe as shameful as that day was for this club, I just don't see what we are doing to remember the 39 and the role we played that day.

 

Go to ICLiverpool Ant, it tells you what's been done this week to mark the anniversary of the tragedy. I'm not saying it's enough, but things have been done.

As for the finger pointing it's being done by someone who hates Liverpool (his own words) and he says most Juventus fans feel the same way about UEFA, the ground and the policing on the night. Again I am NOT making excuses here just passing on info.

[Fugitive]

The simple fact is that everyone involved was to blame that day for different reasons. A number of our supporters went to Jail for their part in what happened and anyone fighting was an absolute bell end, that goes for both sides. Their was a degree of provocation but the fact is, nobody should have resorted to violence.

 

Fucking dark day in our history and always will be.

[Fugitive]

Its sad that now, over 25 years later, that poor policing and UEFA's incompetance are still causing problems.

 

UEFA got off very lightly.

[Antynwa]

Well fair enough, I've spoken to a few reds who have called Juventus Cheeky Cunts for turning their back on out tribute back in 2005.

 

I mean if McKenzie or Duckenfield came onto the pitch and said sorry, we'd have a few who would do more than just turn their backs. I don't know, I guess as long as the Juventus fans feel resentment towards us, we haven't done enough.

[goatboy59]

Named themselves after a gang from A Clockwork Orange.

 

Irony not big in Italy, then?

[Jim MM]

Fucking dark day in our history and always will be.

That's it in a nutshell for me.

[The Chief]

Well fair enough, I've spoken to a few reds who have called Juventus Cheeky Cunts for turning their back on out tribute back in 2005.

 

I mean if McKenzie or Duckenfield came onto the pitch and said sorry, we'd have a few who would do more than just turn their backs. I don't know, I guess as long as the Juventus fans feel resentment towards us, we haven't done enough.

 

Personally when I first heard that some of them were gonna do that I thought the same, but after about 5 minutes I realised they were well within their rights to do that, but, if they wanted to show their disgust properly they should not have gone to the game at all, either leg.

[Dracco]

I have spoken with many peopleabout Heysel. I mean non Liverpool or Juve fans, just neutral fans.

 

Most of the people outside England and Italy have the opinion,that Liverpool fans are responsible for the tragedy.Make out of it what you want.

[Lucky Pierre]

Most of the people outside England and Italy have the opinion,that Liverpool fans are responsible for the tragedy.Make out of it what you want.

Most of the people inside England are of the view that Liverpool fans were completely to blame.

[Fugitive]

I have spoken with many peopleabout Heysel. I mean non Liverpool or Juve fans, just neutral fans.

 

Most of the people outside England and Italy have the opinion,that Liverpool fans are responsible for the tragedy.Make out of it what you want.

 

What are they basing that opinion on though?

[rednich85]

I don't know, I guess as long as the Juventus fans feel resentment towards us, we haven't done enough.

 

No matter what we do, some Juve fans will always have 'resentment' towards us.

 

So defining 'enough' can't be done.

 

That fella makes it out as though hooligan liverpool fans attacked helpless Juve fans who didnt want any trouble.

 

I'm sorry, but that is simply bollocks.

 

I mean no disrespect to the 39 who lost their lives.

 

It was a tragedy in every sense of the word and definately a black period in our history.

[dave u]

We're playing a match against Juventus fans at the Academy on Saturday to commemorate the anniversary. Hopefully it will get some press coverage over here and in Italy.

[goatboy59]

Rocket launcher optional?

[The Chief]

We're playing a match against Juventus fans at the Academy on Saturday to commemorate the anniversary. Hopefully it will get some press coverage over here and in Italy.

 

Only if you start kicking the shite out of each other after the game Dave! Like I said about the MoenchenGladbach visits every year, if they were meeting for a fight it would get worldwide coverage, which the same could be said about Saturday.

[Hermes]

We're playing a match against Juventus fans at the Academy on Saturday to commemorate the anniversary. Hopefully it will get some press coverage over here and in Italy.

 

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/football/premier_league/liverpool/article7139510.ece

[cochyn]

I'm not for one minute taking away from the tragedy that was Heysel. I'm just disappointed that some people can't disentangle the element of violence from the very terrible tragedy that occurred. I doubt any fan would wilfully have wished death on anyone that day.

 

Glad the clubs and fans are going a long way to build bridges - it is the utterly right and human response.