New Hillsborough INvestigation

[cracker]

There's never a bad time for Bishop bashing. Are we absolutely sure he isn't one of the ones that fiddled with kids, the last thing we need is to have this thing de-railed by that most frowned upon of religious hobbies? I know he's not Irish but I just wanted to make sure. I'm just asking the difficult questions we're all thinking here.

 

Before I start just some background on where I am coming from - I am a Christian, a Liverpool fan and someone with passionate views on justice in the world and Hillsborough is one of the issues which 'gets me' most.

 

So your comment above even if made in jest is one I can't ignore - I won't say it offends me cos that is not quite it as I do not offend easily but it does annoy me. The bishop in question is a man of huge integrity with lots of pastoral skill and to me is an excellent choice for the role. If anyone can get some kind of justice for us I think he can. You would think that with his connections in the city he will be hugely aware of the issues and will do his utmost to not let 'them' get away with things.

 

Nevertheless I do also strongly share Toms thoughts earlier in the thread that it will still not do the job and that it is all too late really for proper justice to be done and a lot of relevant files will not be there. We'll just have to hope and dare I say pray that some kind of justice is done

 

In conclusion though the fact that the clergy is seen by some such as SM as full of abusers ...etc is a sad reflection on the wrongdoings of a small minority but if the matter was viewed with any kind of fairness it could be seen that there are also many men who do tremendous good amongst its ranks and from what I know of him James Jones is such a man.

 

The phrase 'Don't tar them all with the same brush' comes to mind. And for your info whatever 'difficult questions' you might be thinking it is highly unlikely that I was thinking the same ones!!

[aws]

Best not to get annoyed by Stu's views. Just accept him as part of life's rich tapestry.

[Strontium]

Stu is a bit like football disasters... just God moving in mysterious ways

[Stu Monty]

Before I start just some background on where I am coming from - I am a Christian, a Liverpool fan and someone with passionate views on justice in the world and Hillsborough is one of the issues which 'gets me' most.

 

So your comment above even if made in jest is one I can't ignore - I won't say it offends me cos that is not quite it as I do not offend easily but it does annoy me. The bishop in question is a man of huge integrity with lots of pastoral skill and to me is an excellent choice for the role. If anyone can get some kind of justice for us I think he can. You would think that with his connections in the city he will be hugely aware of the issues and will do his utmost to not let 'them' get away with things.

 

Nevertheless I do also strongly share Toms thoughts earlier in the thread that it will still not do the job and that it is all too late really for proper justice to be done and a lot of relevant files will not be there. We'll just have to hope and dare I say pray that some kind of justice is done

 

In conclusion though the fact that the clergy is seen by some such as SM as full of abusers ...etc is a sad reflection on the wrongdoings of a small minority but if the matter was viewed with any kind of fairness it could be seen that there are also many men who do tremendous good amongst its ranks and from what I know of him James Jones is such a man.

 

The phrase 'Don't tar them all with the same brush' comes to mind. And for your info whatever 'difficult questions' you might be thinking it is highly unlikely that I was thinking the same ones!!

 

I don't really want to get into it but all Christians are child abusers actually. If your kid was being naughty and I told him if he did it again I'd slit his throat you'd rightly call that child abuse.

 

Then you'd tell him if he's a bad person he'll go to hell where he'll be tortured for eternity. Just becuase lots of people do it and it's a norm doesn't change what it is.

 

And it's not a small minority of Catholics that are guilty either it is the whole organisation that ignored or systematically covered-up what went on.

 

I was actually being light-hearted and don't really want a quarrell about religion.

[piscinin]

I don't really want to get into it but all Christians are child abusers actually. If your kid was being naughty and I told him if he did it again I'd slit his throat you'd rightly call that child abuse.

 

Then you'd tell him if he's a bad person he'll go to hell where he'll be tortured for eternity. Just becuase lots of people do it and it's a norm doesn't change what it is.

 

And it's not a small minority of Catholics that are guilty either it is the whole organisation that ignored or systematically covered-up what went on.

 

I was actually being light-hearted and don't really want a quarrell about religion.

 

The almost evangelical zeal of your proselytizing is, errm, commendable. ;)

[sh#t waffle]

If you want to hear something truly incendiary, wait till you hear Monty's views on Father Christmas.

[shaunstrudwick]

the most realistic portrayal of St Nick i have seen was by the well known Angelina Jolie shit stabber Billy Bob Thornton

[Tom R]

Stu, you're such a fucking Leftzi arsehole sometimes.

[cracker]

I don't really want to get into it but all Christians are child abusers actually. If your kid was being naughty and I told him if he did it again I'd slit his throat you'd rightly call that child abuse.

 

Then you'd tell him if he's a bad person he'll go to hell where he'll be tortured for eternity. Just becuase lots of people do it and it's a norm doesn't change what it is.

 

And it's not a small minority of Catholics that are guilty either it is the whole organisation that ignored or systematically covered-up what went on.

 

I was actually being light-hearted and don't really want a quarrell about religion.

 

Back on here 24 hours later wondering if they'd been a response to what I put then

 

Well having read it I'm certainly managing a bit of the 'turning the other cheek' stuff having been told that I and all other Christians are child abusers and then in the next breath that 'you don't want a quarrel about religion'.

 

I don't either so I'll leave it but it makes me wonder what kind of statements you'd come out with if you were wanting a quarrel!!

 

You're a Red I'm a Red we're mates thats how it works isn't it???

[Nomad]

This artical is from the home office web intrenet at work so I dont know if the link will work external

 

http://horizon.gws.gsi.gov.uk/portal/site/horizon-intranet/menuitem.752fbb630807ef3a43757f10466b8a0c/?vgnextoid=5b48105bf7a66210VgnVCM1000002bb1a8c0RCRD

 

 

 

Hillsborough panel members appointed

Tuesday 26 Jan 2010 , Home Office HQ

 

A film producer, former newsreader and doctor take up posts

Former ITV newsreader Peter Sissons is one of seven specialists appointed to the Hillsborough panel today.

 

The Liverpudlian – who retired last year after 45 years as a journalist for ITN and the BBC – will work with other panel members to oversee the publication of papers surrounding the 1989 tragedy, in which 96 Liverpool football supporters lost their lives.

 

Peter Sissons said: ‘The Hillsborough families, and all the people of Liverpool, must have confidence that nothing is still being hidden about this tragedy. That is our task and, as a Liverpudlian, I am glad that I can play a part in fulfilling it.’

 

The panel members, who are all specialists in research, medicine, archives, policing and the media, will assist the panel’s chair, the Right Reverend James Jones, Bishop of Liverpool.

 

Other panel members include:

 

Christine Gifford – an expert in the field of access to information and a member of the Advisory Council on National Records and Archives

Katy Jones – Bafta award-winning producer of factual dramas including Jimmy McGovern’s ‘Hillsborough’

Dr Bill Kirkup – associate chief medical officer at the Department of Health, who has also worked on public health and reconstruction in Kosovo, Iraq and Afghanistan

Paul Leighton – retired as deputy chief constable of Northern Ireland police service last year. He also dealt with the aftermath of the Chinook helicopter crash on the Mull of Kintyre in 1994

Phil Scraton – Professor of Criminology at Queen’s University, Belfast and former director of the Hillsborough project

Sarah Tyacke – a visiting professor at Royal Holloway, University of London and previously keeper of public records and commissioner of historical manuscripts.

[CrouchieBoy]

Stu being taken serious?

 

well i'll be damned.

 

repped Stuart

[Stouffer]

Phil Scraton on the panel, result.

[TaksimRakiClub]

Paul Leighton has got previous if he was involved with the Chinook crash on the Mull of Kintyre.

 

The MoD were cleared of any wrongdoing and pilot error was blamed despite all and sundry being made aware - prior to the crash - that the on-board computers across the whole fleet were fucked.

 

Remainder of the panel looks reasonable though.

[Arl arse]

The appointment of Phil Scraton is a major step in the right direction. I actually have hope now that it won't be a complete whitewash, because if I was to handpick anyone to find the truth out of thousands of documents relating to Hillsborough then Phil would be that man.

[bigal]

Very good news about Phil Scraton, a man I respect.

[razor]

I don't really want to get into it but all Christians are child abusers actually. If your kid was being naughty and I told him if he did it again I'd slit his throat you'd rightly call that child abuse.

 

Then you'd tell him if he's a bad person he'll go to hell where he'll be tortured for eternity. Just becuase lots of people do it and it's a norm doesn't change what it is.

 

And it's not a small minority of Catholics that are guilty either it is the whole organisation that ignored or systematically covered-up what went on.

 

I was actually being light-hearted and don't really want a quarrell about religion.

 

 

It’s great to see young people speaking out in such an informed and insightful way on issues relevant to matters at hand.

 

Also, great use of the word "actually". Like a student in a cash machine queue talking about things that they know very little about. But ever so forcefully.

 

What next for your enlightened viewpoint, world poverty or the environment?

 

Or Hillsborough?

 

This development has got to be welcomed. And the panel looks capable with a broad base of knowledge and backgrounds: heartening.

[P.S.D]

What will happen if we don't get the verdict we are after, will we call it a waste of time & a cover up, & want another one until we are or a percentage of us are happy & content

[zigackly]

James Lawton: Fresh Hillsborough inquiry can finally end a scandal greater than Terry's fall

Saturday, 6 February 2010

 

Fabio Capello has had some important issues to thrash around the last few days, no question, but if we are talking about trouble-shooting football scandal management he might agree he has been operating on a rather lower rung than the Rt Rev James Jones, Bishop of Liverpool.

 

Not in terms of exposure, of course not, but in the meaning of what he has been doing, in the potential scale of the righting of wrongs, unquestionably.

 

The Bishop has agreed to head a panel that for the next year or so will pour over every piece of documentation available on the Hillsborough tragedy and the prayer must be that he has the energy and the will and the political fearlessness to do a forensic job. And that in the end he will do what has not been done by coroners, courts of law, home secretaries.

 

He will, we can hope, say what Lord Taylor, the only truly independent adjudicator of the disaster, said so long ago, that the police operation was an outrage along with the fact that when the lives were lost the Hillsborough stadium was not in possession of a current safety certificate.

 

He may also say that the time has finally come for some definitive statement on failings, individual and collective, that first allowed the tragedy to progress, then grievously impaired the effort to save lives.

 

It is a huge and solemn assignment and its objective is poignantly defined by Trevor Hicks, who lost his daughters, Sarah and Vicky, in the Leppings Lane crush which claimed the lives of 96 innocent people 21 years ago. "We want to hear the whole story," he said. "We're still looking for answers."

 

Some, with astonishing impertinence, have already suggested that Mr Hicks and his allies in the Hillsborough Family Support Group are in error, that it is long past the time when they should have drawn a line against all the pain and the grief that came with their loss. Unfortunately, they cannot. And then, when you think about it, who really could?

 

Who could ever forget for a single day that a loved one had died needlessly, because of gross official incompetence, and in that terrible chasm left in your life there is not available even the smallest of consolations that might have been provided by something even hinting at apology?

 

You cannot forget if you were simply at Hillsborough that day, untouched personally by the grim, inevitable accumulation of death but near demented by the idea that something disastrous had been put in motion and could not stop.

 

You cannot forget the suspicion already forming that there would indeed be a cover-up when prime minister Margaret Thatcher arrived at the stadium the following day with flowers in her hands, and, it has to be said, platitudes on her lips.

 

Move on, the Hillsborough families have been told so often. Yet they refuse to budge – and they should be honoured and not scorned, in some time-worn way, by those who refuse for one reason or another to recognise the scale of the injustice that will always lay like a stone on their hearts.

 

You may strain to make the link between Hillsborough and the John Terry affair and at one level you are right. One is about something as fundamental as the need for recognition that those entrusted with the care of people are answerable when that duty is abandoned as shockingly as it was at Hillsborough. The other is a reflection of what happens when someone as crass as Terry abuses the privileges he has gained in a society where the dividing between right and wrong is not so much a matter of debate but a source of ridicule.

 

In precisely a week though there has been some closure on the Terry business. He has paid a price for his misjudgements, a financial one of some weight when you measure the systematic attempt of his advisers to drag from it every commercial possibility.

 

Twenty one years on, there is still no hint of closure in the matter of Hillsborough. Not in the vital matter of responsibility, of any acceptance that terrible mistakes, appalling negligence, made the tragedy and that someone should be answerable.

 

The Terry affair offended some sensibilities. The one of Hillsborough took 96 lives and shattered what was left of many others. The testaments of those required to live out the rest of their lives under such a shadow vary only in the degree of the pain expressed and the details of their peculiar horrors.

 

If Terry's behaviour was some kind of commentary on contemporary values, the refusal to acknowledge significantly the cry for justice over Hillsborough remains a direct and disturbing statement about the reluctance of official bodies to acknowledge honestly their own failures.

 

Fabio Capello was required to deal with one example of human frailty and impose upon it a degree of logic and discipline.

 

The Bishop of Liverpool must seek atonement for a catastrophe in a football ground that still holds up a mirror to the way our society is run. Capello acted with commendable swiftness.

 

The Bishop has more time but, we have to hope, no less a sense of urgency. He will never, after all, be involved in a more important game.

[cracker]

Good article - the truth now is that we have public opinion on our side - as Lawton is certainly not a red - and have done tbh for a long time (ever since Taylor) - which was not the case in the immediate aftermath - due obviously to the lies put forward by Duckinfield and his cronies aided and abetted by McKenzie at that time.

 

Whether following this new investigation truth or justice wins out over officialdom (or whatever else you want to call it) we shall see - the cover up performed by officialdom in the form of the police and others for the past 20+ years will prove very hard to break down even for men like Scraton and the bishop but good luck to them is what I think we all are saying. They will need it as there will be many who have a vested interest in not wanting the truth to come out ....he said stating the obvious.

[lifetime fan]

I'll only repeat what I have already said in the thread.

 

I hope to God there is a 'positive' outcome this time but fear the families will have a brief hope only to be shat on yet again.

[J B]

Good article - the truth now is that we have public opinion on our side - as Lawton is certainly not a red - .

 

To be fair I've always had the impression that James Lawton is one of the few journalists to have written accurately, supportively and consistently about the injustice of Hillsborough over the years. I stand to be corrected if that's not the case.

[Creator Supreme]

I'm not sure how true this is, but apparently Anne Williams has been contacted by that Tory Hound Theresa May, and she's basically been told that the truth will not out.

 

I don't know anymore about this, it's just been posted on the rattle, if anybody has anymore info, please post it on here. Cheers.

[lifetime fan]

I'm not sure how true this is, but apparently Anne Williams has been contacted by that Tory Hound Theresa May, and she's basically been told that the truth will not out.

 

I don't know anymore about this, it's just been posted on the rattle, if anybody has anymore info, please post it on here. Cheers.

 

I'd like more information before commenting.

[Creator Supreme]

I'd like more information before commenting.

 

Fair Point mate, I'm sure it'll be forthcoming soon enough.

[Cardie]

Hardly surprising with the Conservatives and Conservatives-lite in charge.