Would you have taken this position in August?

[23_Carra_Gold]

I think some people took the original post wrong. I wasn't saying I was 100% contented with Benitez's style or the fact that we aren't storming ahead. I was saying in spite of those things we should enjoy the fact we're in the title race. I'm excited because I've never seen us win the league and very rarely have I seen us in a position to do so halfway through the season. So I'm not thinking "Oh no, why aren't we top by a mile", I'm thinking "Oh yes, we're right up there. 8 points better off then last year and breathing on the Mancs".

 

Liverpool Football Club never do it the easy way. Never. This season will be the same.

[Brownie]

League form matey, league form. Sorry my laziness.

 

Since 3rd season we've steadily improved, a statistician would take out the worst and best performances, and over the last three seasons we've improved each season.

 

I'm sorry but I would use all four seasons to analyse. This season will only be judged at the end too.

 

And anyway I don't just judge the team by what I see on a spreadsheet, I judge it with what I see with my eyes. Our performances this season have been poor in most cases.

[Brownie]

I think some people took the original post wrong. I wasn't saying I was 100% contented with Benitez's style or the fact that we aren't storming ahead. I was saying in spite of those things we should enjoy the fact we're in the title race. I'm excited because I've never seen us win the league and very rarely have I seen us in a position to do so halfway through the season. So I'm not thinking "Oh no, why aren't we top by a mile", I'm thinking "Oh yes, we're right up there. 8 points better off then last year and breathing on the Mancs".

 

Liverpool Football Club never do it the easy way. Never. This season will be the same.

 

I'm not excited personally and that makes me sad.

[redrosetints]

This is what I don't understand. How have WE strengthened? We have almost exactly the same points as last season at this stage. I don't see how our better league position can be seen as strengthening by us as we are only there because our biggest rivals have all - by coincidence and incredibly unusually - been crap.

 

Don't get me wrong. I'm very happy that we are there or thereabouts. I don't give Benitez a great deal of credit for it though because if it was business as usual for our rivals, a lot of those being positive would be calling for Benitez to go.

 

8 points more than this stage last season ? Is that not progress ?

[thechap]

Since 3rd season we've steadily improved, a statistician would take out the worst and best performances, and over the last three seasons we've improved each season.

 

I don't follow that one. Have more or fewer better/worse performances than you rivals and you win/don't win the title. The only measure of your own improvement is how much better you did than last time, not by how much poorer your opposition has become.

[Brownie]

8 points more than this stage last season ? Is that not progress ?

 

Does that not just go to show how crap we were last season up until February?

[23_Carra_Gold]

I'm not excited personally and that makes me sad.

 

Why not though? Our best shot at a title in 18 years! That's pretty fucking exciting. I'm aware we haven't exactly set the world alight with our performances so far but we don't know how the second half of our season will go. If we can win at Wigan and beat Chelsea that will give us the momentum to push on.

[23_Carra_Gold]

Does that not just go to show how crap we were last season up until February?

 

Which means we've improved this season then yes?

[Brownie]

Why not though? Our best shot at a title in 18 years! That's pretty fucking exciting. I'm aware we haven't exactly set the world alight with our performances so far but we don't know how the second half of our season will go. If we can win at Wigan and beat Chelsea that will give us the momentum to push on.

 

I don't really want to go over old ground mate as I think people know my stance. All i'll say is that if I trusted the manager then I would be fucking buzzing right now, but I don't, so i'm not.

[Brownie]

Which means we've improved this season then yes?

 

Statistically, yes.

[thechap]

8 points more than this stage last season ? Is that not progress ?

 

 

This is from a post of mine a week ago;

 

Last season we averaged exactly 2 points per game. This season, after 21 games, the same average would give us 42 points and we are on 46. We are averaging 2.19047619 points per game (the 8 decimal points is important in the final calculation). With last season's final table and that performance, we would have been 3rd on 83.23 points, only .23 points ahead of Arsenal and 4 points behind Man Ham. You have to go back to 2002/03 to win the league with this season's performance when we would have been 0.23 points ahead of Man Ham. (Not as a point of argument but interest only, we would also have won 1995/96, 1996/97, 1997/98, 1998/99 and 2000/01)

 

 

After our two recent draws, we are now on 2.136 points per game average. We have not improved enough under Benitez and we won't unless he has a serious word with himself. Sitting on a 1-0 lead over Everton was fucking abysmal. If Havant can score against us I'm damn sure Everton can. I cannot imagine Fergie sitting on a 1-0, and that's because he's smart enough to know that 1-0 can too easily become 1-1. If when that happens you are left without any strikers then you don't have much option but to try and make sure it doesn't become 1-2.

[Brownie]

This is from a post of mine a week ago;

 

Last season we averaged exactly 2 points per game. This season, after 21 games, the same average would give us 42 points and we are on 46. We are averaging 2.19047619 points per game (the 8 decimal points is important in the final calculation). With last season's final table and that performance, we would have been 3rd on 83.23 points, only .23 points ahead of Arsenal and 4 points behind Man Ham. You have to go back to 2002/03 to win the league with this season's performance when we would have been 0.23 points ahead of Man Ham. (Not as a point of argument but interest only, we would also have won 1995/96, 1996/97, 1997/98, 1998/99 and 2000/01)

 

 

After our two recent draws, we are now on 2.136 points per game average. We have not improved enough under Benitez and we won't unless he has a serious word with himself. Sitting on a 1-0 lead over Everton was fucking abysmal. If Havant can score against us I'm damn sure Everton can. I cannot imagine Fergie sitting on a 1-0, and that's because he's smart enough to know that 1-0 can too easily become 1-1. If when that happens you are left without any strikers then you don't have much option but to try and make sure it doesn't become 1-2.

 

Fergie probably does sit on 1-0 wins to be fair but the method is totally different. They keep the ball instead of launching it forward.

[thechap]

Why not though? Our best shot at a title in 18 years! That's pretty fucking exciting. I'm aware we haven't exactly set the world alight with our performances so far but we don't know how the second half of our season will go. If we can win at Wigan and beat Chelsea that will give us the momentum to push on.

 

 

I agree with you and hope you're right. I'm with Brownie though in that I just don't have much faith in Benitez right now. I think he's far too clever and analytical for his own good when sometimes what's needed is a balls-out charge for goals.

[GJM]

I said at the start of the season that, if we were within 6pts of the leaders come the end of January, I would be happy and that it would give us at least a shot at becoming champions.

 

Well, here we are and I can't say I'm particularly happy. This shows that I am either a) a rather poor judge of how I will feel about a given state of affairs at some point in the future; or b) a spoilt child. A bit of both I suspect.

 

Got me wondering whether I would feel happier if we'd reached our points total via a different route, i.e. a few draws were victories and a few were defeats? I doubt it would in all honesty.

[05 Milan]

Fergie probably does sit on 1-0 wins to be fair but the method is totally different. They keep the ball instead of launching it forward.

 

They are also pretty awesome at quick one-touch play in the final third. It's one of the things they work the most on, I reckon.

[Brownie]

They are also pretty awesome at quick one-touch play in the final third. It's one of the things they work the most on, I reckon.

 

Yep - that O'Shea goal last night showed it. Three quick passes, good movement and a goal for the full back.

[05 Milan]

Playing the long ball up to Torres is like driving off-road with your brand new Ferrari. The vehicle is clearly not equipped for that sort of driving, and can be put to use much better elsewhere, particularly in situations where it can use its speed.

 

Playing the long ball up to Robbie Keane is like accidently slashing your throat while shaving; very stupid, and a bit tragic.

 

We do both.

[sir roger]

Playing the long ball up to Torres is like driving off-road with your brand new Ferrari. The vehicle is clearly not equipped for that sort of driving, and can be put to use much better elsewhere, particularly in situations where it can use its speed.

 

Playing the long ball up to Robbie Keane is like accidently slashing your throat while shaving; very stupid, and a bit tragic.

 

We do both.

 

Spot On Milan. It was exacerbated on Monday by Everton getting their tactics perfect , in that they used Cahill & Anichebe to stop the full backs getting forward and the midfielders hovered near Xabi & Stevie ,which basically meant that the ball kept ending up with Sami & Skrtel having to make decisions which they were not comfortable with & they often ended up lumping it aimlessly forward. Agger for Sunday if fit methinks.

 

On a different matter , does anybody feel like me that our fitness does not seem great lately & not like previous seasons where we were always strong late on in games.

[The 5th Benitel]

If your criteria for a big club is still challenging for the title, each and every January, then we havent been a big club for 20 years. Don't you get it ?

 

Its precisely because we haven't done this very often in the last 20 years that Im cautiously optimistic and feeling positive about this season, in spite of the recent slump in form. Noones doing cartwheels here, but I really dont understand how Rafas support is lessening, as our position is strengthening, madness !

 

Rafas been here 5 years come May and the worst season was his first, his best the 2nd, but since then we've seen steady progress in each season.

 

My criteria for being a big club includes not having fans who are happy with a team that have struggled to beat weak teams for the majority of the season and are satisfied to find themselves in second against a Manc team that had one od theworst starts i can remember them having. It also means not being happy with a team who has only put in 7-8 good performances in a season. We were all saying that we were glad to be playing badly and winning but now we're just playing badly and drawing. The only difference is we're not getting the breaks rather than a big dip in the standard of play.

 

That's why we're not happy with the situation, because i cant see a logical reason why it's going to get any better if we continue with the current style of play.

[JMARKH]

My criteria for being a big club includes not having fans who are happy with a team that have struggled to beat weak teams for the majority of the season and are satisfied to find themselves in second against a Manc team that had one od theworst starts i can remember them having. It also means not being happy with a team who has only put in 7-8 good performances in a season. We were all saying that we were glad to be playing badly and winning but now we're just playing badly and drawing. The only difference is we're not getting the breaks rather than a big dip in the standard of play.

 

That's why we're not happy with the situation, because i cant see a logical reason why it's going to get any better if we continue with the current style of play.

 

spot on that.

[macca1979]

I'm disappointed that we're not a few points clear at the top. I think everyone can agree that draws at home have cost us.

 

But at the same time, dwelling on that point will get us nowhere. I think positivity will help massively from the fans at Anfield, it always gets players running that bit more, trying that bit harder.

 

I think that Rafa could certainly do with a bit more positivity too.

 

Overall, as others have said, this is the first time I can actually see Liverpool in with a shout at this stage of the season, and for that reason alone, I'm staying positive.

 

To answer the original post, yes, I'd have taken this at the start of the season. But having seen how the seasons' unfolded, you can't help but feel a little disappointed.

[dandyman]

Damn right I'd take the position in August. I like many others just wanted us to actually challange for the title, never expected to be in a position where we could win it.

 

However, there is more than just the points total this season versus last season, and how we play to take into account.

 

After 21 games we have the same points as our nearest rivals, yes they have a game in hand, but that means jack, they have to draw/win it - the general feeling is that they will, but they haven't yet.

 

At times we haven't played great football, and haven't broken teams down effectively to put real pressure on them to get a win, like some on here think that Manure do all the time.

 

Then there have been times where we have battered a side and yet still haven't got the result that we thought we deserved, and then there are games where we have got what we deserved.

 

However, with 16 games to go (a potential 48 points) we are still in a position where we can win the league. We are the only team I think who could make Ginsoak nervous come the latter stages of a title run in. After all his goal as Manure manager has been to "knock us of our perch", can you imagine how he will feel if we are slugging it out with them with 5 games to go, its the one time I think pressure could get to him, like he has made it get to Wenger et al.

 

Then look at us against Manure, and the sides - we have a squad which has had its share of injuries early in the season, and looks like most are coming back to full fitness for the "run-in" Agger, Srktel, Aurelio, Torres & Bob, have all had lengthy spells out, who at the moment is out long term?

 

Compare that to Manure's side, who along with Rooney & Ferdinand, saw some of their side pick up long term injuries in the League Cup Semi. Regardless of whether 1st regular or not the loss of someone like Evans, means that they have no experienced Centre Half for much of the run-in.

 

You may think I'm trying to find rosetinted glass' to look through - I am, but at the end of the day, we're in a position where we can still win the league, without others having to have major losses in form - as we have in previous seasons.

 

Can we do it ? - Yes we can, but the more of us here and at matches, etc, who don't really believe, will have an effect on the team, and that may just be the difference between a 2nd/3rd finish and winning it.

 

Do you think Manure fans thought they couldn't win the league when they went off to Japan, NO, admittedly they have expereince of winning it after coming from behind, but we have to have that belief, forget about agreeing with Rafa's negative tactics or whatever, get out there and support the side for the last 16 matches believing we can win it, and you never know

 

Go out there for those 16 games with a negative "Rafa's tactics are rubbish" and start moaning as soon as games don't look like going our way, and I'll guarantee we won't win.

 

Everyone has a right to their opinion on the game/team/players and manager, and say what they want here - its Saturday afternoon's where I think there is negativity in bundles, and we expect the side not to perform.

 

Am I saying that people should be "towing the line of" this season we're going to win it, Not at all, we're accused of that by the media every season, and for the last 19 we've fallen flat on our faces.

 

This is the closest we have been for such a long time, and it is still within our grasp to go on and win it - I'd love us to batter teams - but I'd have felt far worse if we'd gone for it on Monday and the blueshite had caught us twice on the counter to win it - draws aren't good enough to win this league, you're all right. But 1 point is better than 0, just like 3 is better than 1 (maths genius I know) There isn't one team in the league this year that I don't think we can't beat, but for the last few season the Arse, Chav and Manure games have all been games we're the best we've hoped for is a draw.

 

ANway, I want to believe, and I want everyone else to believe, so

Are you wi' me or agin me

[Catch22]

My criteria for being a big club includes not having fans who are happy with a team that have struggled to beat weak teams for the majority of the season and are satisfied to find themselves in second against a Manc team that had one od theworst starts i can remember them having. It also means not being happy with a team who has only put in 7-8 good performances in a season. We were all saying that we were glad to be playing badly and winning but now we're just playing badly and drawing. The only difference is we're not getting the breaks rather than a big dip in the standard of play.

 

That's why we're not happy with the situation, because i cant see a logical reason why it's going to get any better if we continue with the current style of play.

 

 

We have been going backwards since '90 (arguable since Paisley left but seeing as he is the most successful manager the UK has ever seen it was always going to drop when he left).

Souness & Evans were manifestly not up for the job whilst GH started well but finished very badly & we will never know if that was down to fundamental problems or his heaith problems.

 

 

 

Off the pitch it has been even worse.

Up until 1990,we had the biggest gates & hence the biggest revenue in the country. We regularly broke transfer records & were the biggest payers (Barnes was the 1st £6k/wk footballer... oh how times change!)

No-one in the country had a significantly bigger capacity than us.

No club had a foreign sugar daddy.

 

Years of Moores mismanagement followed by selling to the Yanks have left us in this position:

We get 30k/wk less than the Mancs which means we are closer to Ipswich's average than theirs.

We generate over £1.2m/game less than Arse who have a modern stadium.

Even Newc have a potential 10k/ game more than us.

2 clubs have foreign billionaires losing money hand over fist.

We are the 4th highest payers in the country (will City push us into 5th?) & haven't broken the transfer record for over 10 years

The Mancs costliest defender cost more than our whole back5.

 

 

The result of this is we have not been a big club for years.

The premier competition is the CL. We had been it twice in 20 years & got thru the group stages once.

We had not challenged for the League since '91 & no manager since Paisley had got us a better average position than our salary spending rank would expect.

 

 

Then Rafa arrived.

We have been in the CL every year, won it once & got the best record over 4 years according to Uefa of any team in Europe. That is our best 4 year strech since '77-'80 which has 2 wins in it

We have averaged 3.75th, which is a touch better than our expected finish of 4th. That is our best use of resources since Paisley left

 

Both of thesae acheivements are the best we have done for over 20 years.

 

That is why Rafa has done such a fanatastic job.

 

Moreover until we get a new ground or there is a salary cap it is a as good as it is going to get so lets do our best to solved the ownership & hence ground problem.

 

 

No club has the divine right to anything.

Wolves were the best club in the '50's, Spurs in the early '60's & Leeds in the early '70's

Us being the best from mid '70's to 1990 counts for fuck all now (how good were Wolves by the '70's?) & until people realise that we are going nowhere fast.

[redrosetints]

I'm not blaming everything on Rafa. Go back through the archives and you'll see me praising him after the City game. You'll see me declaring myself pleased after a 0-0 home draw with Stoke. There's plenty of other examples of me being happy with Rafa. He didn't rotate anywhere near as much early in the season and I think it was a big reason we started so well.

 

That's not the case recently though. As the season has progressed Rafa has started to change the team around more, he's started treating certain players in a poor way (IMO) and he's lost those balls which won us some points earlier in the season. I don't think the players are free from criticism in some of those games but if the team isn't given the best chance of winning then I lay that firmly at the managers door.

 

But its all getting too polarised and personal now. If we play well its the players, badly its Rafa. If were positive and attacking its the players, negative its Rafa.

 

He went 4-4-2 on Monday, but still people say he was negative, yet wasnt 442 what some have asked for for ages ? Were we really that negative, or were we negated by Everton ? Was it the 4-4-2 that was the problem, were the players defensive, or was it Rafa, I dont know ? Probably a mish mash of all of them.

 

When Keane has another bad game, its the formation that's at fault or he's not had enough games, never mind he started 15 of the first 16 or so league matches. When Kuyt has a run of games to get him some form, after a good start, its Rafa protecting his own, Kuyt is a shite etc etc Isnt Robbie one of Rafas too ?

 

When Lucas has two or three good games, but then has a mare its cos he's just shite, its not because he hasnt had a run of games, liek Keane then ? Lucas needs a run of games just as much as Keane, as does Babel or Kuyt.

 

Why dont the same rules apply equally ?

 

Rightnow, people have lost sight of the common cause, LFC, and the perspective of 20 years of, relative, failure in the league. You'd think it were 1988 not 2008. While I genuinely share peoples frustrations at our recent form, I dont understand the polarisation nor the fact that whilst we are in this relativly healthy state Rafas support dwindles.

[redrosetints]

I'm sorry but I would use all four seasons to analyse. This season will only be judged at the end too.

 

And anyway I don't just judge the team by what I see on a spreadsheet, I judge it with what I see with my eyes. Our performances this season have been poor in most cases.

 

I thought the league didn't lie ? Most Mancs think they've been poor this season, wont stop them celebrating if they win the league will it