Keir Starmer

[Bruce Spanner]

Just now, Harry's Lad said:

I haven't seen an official amendment stating enforceable.

My missus and daughter both work in primary schools and the policy of the heads in both schools is no masks which I completely disagree with and have from the very beginning. 

I'm not saying you're wrong, I really hope you're not, I just haven't seen it, but up until half term, (they both open again tomorrow), the policy of both heads was no masks.

 

 

Good, because I'm not and that'd be daft.

 

'When an area moves to the local COVID alert level ‘high’ or ‘very high’, in education settings where year 7 and above are educated, face coverings should be worn by adults (staff and visitors) and pupils when moving around indoors, such as in corridors and communal areas where social distancing is difficult to maintain. As in the general approach, it will not usually be necessary to wear face coverings in the classroom, where protective measures already mean the risks are lower, and they may inhibit teaching and learning.

 

When an area moves to the local COVID alert level ‘high’ or ‘very high’, schools and colleges will need to communicate quickly and clearly to staff, parents, pupils and learners that the new arrangements require the use of face coverings in certain circumstances.'

[Red Phoenix]

2 minutes ago, Nummer Neunzehn said:

I’m not baiting you on Corbyn. I don’t want to talk about Corbyn. You did. I think your view on this has nothing to do with Corbyn, so we can drop that for sure. 
 

I disagree with Starmer about schools, I think they should close. But I also see Starmer’s point, that he has been saying for weeks that we need a circuit break and we can do it around the school break. 9 days of break plus a couple of inset days and all it took was a bit of foresight. He makes the point that with proper track and trace, kids need to be in schools because the damage being done to kids who are losing education is actually very damaging. It’s the government that missed the chance to do the right thing. It’s government that have fucked up track and trace. I think schools do need to close but I also see the argument for the remaining open and to balance the risk. The problem I’ve got is that he already solved this problem, in advance, and is now tacking criticism because we are in a shitty place because he wasn’t listened to. It’s the government that’s the issue. 

 

I agree that he was right about the circuit breaker seeing as we're now in this state and also that kids not being educated is bad, but I don't think them having another month out during a pandemic is a bad thing if it's going to save lives.

 

The NEU have said this as well, so they'd still be supporting some of the kids and key workers : "The union says that schools should remain open to the children of key workers and vulnerable children during such a general closure period."

 

https://actionnetwork.org/forms/close-schools-and-colleges-now

[Numero Veinticinco]

29 minutes ago, Gnasher said:

He does come across very well on tv does Starmer.

He was bloody good on Marr today I thought, and Marr seems to give him an easy ride. The tide might be starting to shift. 
 

I tell you what though, I’m looking forward to the days when he’s no longer dealing with the negative things of Corbyn’s suspension, antisemitism crisis he inherited, or a massive division that he inherited, but has moved passed those things and has had time to come up with new policies and can start selling his vision rather than plugging holes by the shambles of a party he has to set about fixing. It’s been a shambles for a long time and has become progressively worse under successive leaders. It’s time for it all to stop. People are dying and the Tories are at the wheel. Businesses are collapsing and the economy is collapsing because the Tories are at the wheel. Labour have been on the sidelines for all of this. They need to get a fucking grip. 

[Harry's Lad]

2 minutes ago, Bruce Spanner said:

 

Good, because I'm not and that'd be daft.

 

'When an area moves to the local COVID alert level ‘high’ or ‘very high’, in education settings where year 7 and above are educated, face coverings should be worn by adults (staff and visitors) and pupils when moving around indoors, such as in corridors and communal areas where social distancing is difficult to maintain. As in the general approach, it will not usually be necessary to wear face coverings in the classroom, where protective measures already mean the risks are lower, and they may inhibit teaching and learning.

 

When an area moves to the local COVID alert level ‘high’ or ‘very high’, schools and colleges will need to communicate quickly and clearly to staff, parents, pupils and learners that the new arrangements require the use of face coverings in certain circumstances.'

You're talking year 7 (senior school) and yes, of course you're right about that, I was never in dispute with you.

I'm talking about primary where the guidance is different and the Headteacher decides the policy.

Now that's daft.

 

[Colonel Bumcunt]

1 hour ago, Red Phoenix said:

No support for the teachers from Starmer either because a month of education is clearly more important than spreading a virus around in a global pandemic. The teachers should just tell Labour and the Tories to go and fuck off and go on strike.

Teachers Union should have thought this out before agreeing to return in the summer.

[Anubis]

I said when Starmer called for a circuit breaker a few weeks ago that leaving schools open where you simply cannot practice social distancing as you can in other workplaces, is pointless. It seems to be a political blind spot for all MPs. Kids are spreaders. The school infrastructure can’t support what you need, so you need to look at some way of dealing with it - maybe kids with access to technology being able to log in from home while those without working in school but socially distanced?

[Numero Veinticinco]

1 minute ago, Anubis said:

I said when Starmer called for a circuit breaker a few weeks ago that leaving schools open where you simply cannot practice social distancing as you can in other workplaces, is pointless. It seems to be a political blind spot for all MPs. Kids are spreaders. The school infrastructure can’t support what you need, so you need to look at some way of dealing with it - maybe kids with access to technology being able to log in from home while those without working in school but socially distanced?

But the circuit breaker could have been a near two week period for kids off school. I agree they need to be closed, and I think Starmer is balancing it up and if test, track, isolate was working then his balance might come out with stay... but it doesn’t. When Labour said it was time, 11 people a day were dying. It’s now 320+. So different measures need taking. 

[Barrington Womble]

1 hour ago, Bruce Spanner said:

 

To paraphrase...

 

The Gov fucked up timing, I was right, I wanted the kids out during the holidays, but the Gov fucked that so if we put teachers, students and others on the same essentail testing list as NHS staff and it can be done with those guarentees then it can be managed and students don't miss out, especially the most at risk.

 

So support for an effective system that protects students and teachers, with T&T functioning central to it then it's the best of a worse case senario.

 

Won't happen though as the Gov will fuck it up, again, and the schools will be out, again.

 

Starmer makes Boris look stupid, again.

 

Sensible positioning.

 

I assume that's Tory, or even worse Blairite though so fuck him, I sharn't listen!

I thought he did a good job on Marr this morning with that message.

56 minutes ago, Scooby Dudek said:

Fuck Captain Hindsight.  *

 

 

 

 

 

 

* Hindsight is saying if you don't do A, then B will happen. Then when B happens pointing out, just like you said weeks ago you should have done A.

That is Hindsight yes ? 

Well he also said it without hindsight. Saying it with hindsight would have been to say fuck all when sage had said do a circuit breaker and then bring it up now. 

55 minutes ago, Red Phoenix said:

 

By not supporting the schools being closed. I'm just a Corbynite though so it has to be said in bad faith obviously. Nothing to do with being bothered about the teachers in a high risk environment or the kids spreading it all over the country.

Do you not think if we have an effective test and trace we can keep schools open? In fact our objective this month should be to improve test and trace, get rapid tests up and running and help use that to control the virus for the rest of the winter. Our objective should be to try to keep our kids in school imo, aside from the learning (which frankly I'm not too worried about), the impact on their mental health will be enormous, especially now we're in winter, so they're effectively locked in for lockdown. Surely the opposition's job is to challenge the government to achieve what is possible? I'm not against the idea of controlling class sizes and do more real online teaching (not the shite they did in the last lockdown, which was effectively like giving them puzzle books), but we absolutely should be focused on trying to keep our kids in school. 

[Red Phoenix]

50 minutes ago, Barrington Womble said:

Do you not think if we have an effective test and trace we can keep schools open? In fact our objective this month should be to improve test and trace, get rapid tests up and running and help use that to control the virus for the rest of the winter. Our objective should be to try to keep our kids in school imo, aside from the learning (which frankly I'm not too worried about), the impact on their mental health will be enormous, especially now we're in winter, so they're effectively locked in for lockdown. Surely the opposition's job is to challenge the government to achieve what is possible? I'm not against the idea of controlling class sizes and do more real online teaching (not the shite they did in the last lockdown, which was effectively like giving them puzzle books), but we absolutely should be focused on trying to keep our kids in school. 

 

It just looks odd to me that keeping schools open is the answer but I'm not pretending I'm 100% sure what the solution is. We've had most of this year watching them make a total mess of testing and tracing too so I doubt it's going to start falling into place now. It could be that we get things under control more but because schools are open it's then back to current levels around christmas because the schools are still spreading it all over the place at an even worse rate.

 

I don't know what option teachers have too, maybe some of them will go on strike? No idea how that would work out during this chaos though and still have some of them looking after vulnerable kids and those of key workers. Or maybe it'll gradually get worse until the gov closes them like they did earlier in the year. It wasn't long back that we weren't having another lockdown and that ended up being wrong so maybe this will be the same.

[Section_31]

My Mrs is a teacher and doesn't want schools shut, she reckons the kids are already a year behind plus you've got the social aspect of them not being fed, not being safe in some cases. Pretty much all her colleagues feel the same. The so called circuit bresker should have been done over the half term.

[Red Phoenix]

1 hour ago, Colonel Bumcunt said:

Teachers Union should have thought this out before agreeing to return in the summer.

 

I guess they thought things would gradually get better instead of turning out like this, and maybe they thought the gov would sort the testing and tracing out so it didn't get so bad at this stage.

[Numero Veinticinco]

Just now, Section_31 said:

My Mrs is a teacher and doesn't want schools shut, she reckons the kids are already a year behind plus you've got the social aspect of them not being fed, not being safe in some cases. Pretty much all her colleagues feel the same. The so called circuit bresker should have been done over the half term.

Yeah, I think the opportunity has been well and truly missed there. I think they just wanted to deny Labour, to be honest. Pride got in the way of policy. Fucking Tories. 

[Red Phoenix]

1 minute ago, Section_31 said:

My Mrs is a teacher and doesn't want schools shut, she reckons the kids are already a year behind plus you've got the social aspect of them not being fed, not being safe in some cases. Pretty much all her colleagues feel the same. The so called circuit bresker should have been done over the half term.

 

Yeah I can see that point of view as well, it doesn't look like there's any easy solution to it at all really. It makes me wonder how much teachers overall are split about staying open or closing too.

[Section_31]

4 minutes ago, Nummer Neunzehn said:

Yeah, I think the opportunity has been well and truly missed there. I think they just wanted to deny Labour, to be honest. Pride got in the way of policy. Fucking Tories. 

There was the feeling in September that we were heading for a circuit breaker in parliament apparently, before labour even called for it, they only did so when it looked like johnson had gone cold on the idea. 

 

Scary as it is to contemplate, the country is essentially being run by Dominic Cummings by the seat of his pants, expert advice, stats etc all gets binned or acted on at his own discretion, depending on whether or not he personally agrees with it, with all his expertise in the field of health and economics.

[Barrington Womble]

43 minutes ago, Red Phoenix said:

 

It just looks odd to me that keeping schools open is the answer but I'm not pretending I'm 100% sure what the solution is. We've had most of this year watching them make a total mess of testing and tracing too so I doubt it's going to start falling into place now. It could be that we get things under control more but because schools are open it's then back to current levels around christmas because the schools are still spreading it all over the place at an even worse rate.

 

I don't know what option teachers have too, maybe some of them will go on strike? No idea how that would work out during this chaos though and still have some of them looking after vulnerable kids and those of key workers. Or maybe it'll gradually get worse until the gov closes them like they did earlier in the year. It wasn't long back that we weren't having another lockdown and that ended up being wrong so maybe this will be the same.

So I get the idea they've not got anything right with test and trace, but if we make that as the marker for our ambitions to get through this, let's just go into complete lockdown until we can give everyone a vaccine. I can't get on with that point of view. I think we have to strive and challenge them to improve. There seems to be there's an idea that as long as we're all locked up at home, everything will be ok..but it won't. The effect on mental health is massive, the effect on people who's fear to go to hospital for other complaints is massive. It will just deliver us a new set of problems.

 

What we need to do is observe large parts of the East of the planet have locked down early, shut borders, crushed the virus and been relentless with test, track and trace. Not everywhere has delivered it identically and not everywhere is the UK in terms of population density and cultural behaviour, but we have to stop ignoring the success of part of the planet and just shrugging our shoulders and say "we'll just have to lockdown more, France and America is shit too". We're spending incredible amounts of money failing. Our expectation should be to get them to raise the bar and not fail. Our minimum expectation should be we can keep our kids in school. I do understand they can spread this. I do understand schools and unis have helped ignite this wave - but I blame successive government failure for this. We need better management of the solutions. More home learning for students (they're more mentally capable of this than kids). More distancing and ventilation in school (if that needs 50% attendance, so be it). More rapid testing. More tracing. More rapid testing. More tracing. 

[Barrington Womble]

53 minutes ago, Section_31 said:

My Mrs is a teacher and doesn't want schools shut, she reckons the kids are already a year behind plus you've got the social aspect of them not being fed, not being safe in some cases. Pretty much all her colleagues feel the same. The so called circuit bresker should have been done over the half term.

My missus is a teacher too and didn't want them to go back. Then once she saw them back and knows how many struggled, she's glad they're back. She doesn't want them to stay back at all costs and thinks we should do more, but she's certain they have to be back in school, even if it's not like it was before. 

[Colonel Bumcunt]

1 hour ago, Red Phoenix said:

 

Yeah I can see that point of view as well, it doesn't look like there's any easy solution to it at all really. It makes me wonder how much teachers overall are split about staying open or closing too.

The easy solution was shouted at us by WHO back in March. 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-51916707

[Bruce Spanner]

2 hours ago, Harry's Lad said:

You're talking year 7 (senior school) and yes, of course you're right about that, I was never in dispute with you.

I'm talking about primary where the guidance is different and the Headteacher decides the policy.

Now that's daft.

 

The Union advice is that face covering can be worn by staff in corridors and communal areas (NEU) the head cannot ask for these to be removed, in the classrooms they can, but they are allowed to implement a policy of every member of staff has to wear one, they cannot say that staff cannot.

 

If you’re genuinely having problems with this contact the in school rep, or if not comfortable the regional rep.

 

People are free to make the choice to wear it if they feel uncomfortable, not not wear if enforced, there’s the distinction.

 

Sorry about the delayed reply, I’ve just smashed a 3D fucking puzzle.

[mars]

The government should have incorporated the half term holiday into lockdown and extended the holiday by a week - minimal impact on students. They dithered again and messed up.

 

The evidence (https://www.who.int/docs/default-source/coronaviruse/risk-comms-updates/update39-covid-and-schools.pdf?sfvrsn=320db233_2) suggests that keeping primary schools open involves little risk to staff and students.

 

Secondary schools are a different matter and the evidence isn't clear yet. The risk isn't to the students but to their families and to staff. Keeping secondary schools open is taking a gamble - you could end up suffering the financial, non-covid medical hardship without reducing the R number by as much.

 

I'm disappointed that Starmer hasn't argued for reduced timetables so that class sizes in secondary schools can be reduced, allowing better social distancing and fewer "respiratory droplets". Apologies if I sound like Mr Know it all but I'm angry that it'll be business as usual for secondary schools and hope for the best rather than some simple changes that would help to mitigate risks and still provide access to education.

[Bruce Spanner]

The problem with the secondary schools closing, or going remote, is that the promised laptops for ‘at risk’ pupils have not, and will not, materialise. This doesn’t even factor in the chaotic home life a lot of pupils have.
 

This leaves a genuine tier system in access to education which could set these kids back years.

[Numero Veinticinco]

Jeremy Corbyn's hard-Left backers vow to set up breakaway 'Old Labour' rebel party after former leader was suspended over anti-Semitism row.

The call for an 'Old Labour' party was made by Chris Williamson, a former frontbencher who was himself suspended from the party for saying Labour had been 'too apologetic' over the problem.

 

Mr Williamson told Russia Today that the Labour Party was 'dead as a vehicle for socialism, as a vehicle for progressive change in this country, as a vehicle for ethical foreign policy

 

 

He also branded Sir Keir 'a joke' and claimed there was 'no point in flogging a dead horse – the Labour Party's dead'. 

Speaking in the wake of Mr Corbyn's shock suspension, the former MP called for either 'a breakaway Labour Party' or a 'new grassroots movement'.

 

His appeal emerged as fellow Left-winger Ian Lavery, the Labour chairman under Mr Corbyn, warned that MPs sympathetic to the former leader were considering quitting the party amid fears that Sir Keir was poised to unleash 'a purge of the Left'.

 

But former Cabinet Minister David Miliband savaged Mr Corbyn's record, branding him 'the most disastrous Labour leader in our history'. 
 

Mr Corbyn was suspended after appearing to undermine last week's bombshell antisemitism report from the Equality and Human Rights Commission, which found Labour responsible for unlawful harassment and discrimination during his four-and-a-half years at the helm.

 

To the fury of Sir Keir and his bid to restore relations with Jewish groups, Mr Corbyn claimed the scale of antisemitism within Labour had been 'dramatically overstated' by opponents.

 

Last night there were signs of a split on the Left, with some considering a legal challenge against the suspension decision and others privately pleading with Mr Corbyn to defuse the row by backing down. 

 

 

Carole Morgan, who set the page up in July to help the ex-leader fight defamation claims, said the fund had to be used for its original purpose.

 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8901553/amp/Jeremy-Corbyns-hard-Left-backers-vow-set-breakaway-Old-Labour-rebel-party.html

 

 

[Red Phoenix]

1 hour ago, Barrington Womble said:

What we need to do is observe large parts of the East of the planet have locked down early, shut borders, crushed the virus and been relentless with test, track and trace. Not everywhere has delivered it identically and not everywhere is the UK in terms of population density and cultural behaviour, but we have to stop ignoring the success of part of the planet and just shrugging our shoulders and say "we'll just have to lockdown more, France and America is shit too". We're spending incredible amounts of money failing. Our expectation should be to get them to raise the bar and not fail. Our minimum expectation should be we can keep our kids in school. I do understand they can spread this. I do understand schools and unis have helped ignite this wave - but I blame successive government failure for this. We need better management of the solutions. More home learning for students (they're more mentally capable of this than kids). More distancing and ventilation in school (if that needs 50% attendance, so be it). More rapid testing. More tracing. More rapid testing. More tracing. 

 

Agreed with the testing and tracing. I was saying the same thing when this started out too, that several countries in the east dealt with this way better than we ever have done. The problem is that our gov have completely fucked it up repeatedly and it looks to be out of control again so it might be that closing down schools for a certain amount of time is one of the only options left.

 

1 hour ago, Colonel Bumcunt said:

The easy solution was shouted at us by WHO back in March. 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-51916707

 

Yep, like I said I agreed with the same thing back then along with others here. If it's not sorted out I don't see how we ever get any type of handle on this before there's a vaccine. So if schools don't close and/or we don't sort the testing and tracing out we probably just count down to the next lockdown again in the near future.

[Harry's Lad]

1 hour ago, Bruce Spanner said:

The Union advice is that face covering can be worn by staff in corridors and communal areas (NEU) the head cannot ask for these to be removed, in the classrooms they can, but they are allowed to implement a policy of every member of staff has to wear one, they cannot say that staff cannot.

 

If you’re genuinely having problems with this contact the in school rep, or if not comfortable the regional rep.

 

People are free to make the choice to wear it if they feel uncomfortable, not not wear if enforced, there’s the distinction.

 

Sorry about the delayed reply, I’ve just smashed a 3D fucking puzzle.

I've relayed that to my daughter. My missus on the other hand does wear a mask because of the hours she works (she doesn't really come into contact with the children) and the nature of her job, plus she basically told him she was wearing one whether he liked it or not.

 

Unfortunately,  most of the teachers/teaching assistants are quite young and don’t have the necessary bollocks to take him on.

 

Sorry for my late response, I was busy watching a certain event and I've only just stopped laughing.

 

Peace brother.

 

[Section_31]

The problem you've got with closing  schools is it's basically a slippery slope. Stuff like shops, gyms, sport, you can shut it during virus peaks then open it up reasonably painlessly (assuming there's financial support in place), but disruption to lives is minimal beyond basic inconvenience. 

 

But let's say the worst case scenario is that we don't find a cure and simply have to learn to live our lives around this virus, can society function in the long term with a stop/start education system and, if so, what kind of learners, workers, and human beings is it going to produce?

[Barrington Womble]

1 hour ago, Red Phoenix said:

Agreed with the testing and tracing. I was saying the same thing when this started out too, that several countries in the east dealt with this way better than we ever have done. The problem is that our gov have completely fucked it up repeatedly and it looks to be out of control again so it might be that closing down schools for a certain amount of time is one of the only options left.

I'm hoping (perhaps with spybee levels of optimism to be fair) that rapid testing can be our way through this and hope people are responsible. There are supposed to be rapid tests available that cost ~25p each. Personally I would be more than happy to buy my own (if you could buy them here) for me and my family and test twice every day. I know not everyone can afford that, for a family of 4 that becomes 14 quid a week. But many of us can afford that and would be happy to do it, allowing the government to fund those who can't. I would role these out and I wouldn't let 1 kid into school or student into uni without them having done this daily. Workplaces could be the same. Anyone who tests positive goes and isolates and all the normal rules apply. If these tests are perhaps not sensitive enough or quite as accurate enough, give people a PCR test after a rapid test positive. If we can break those chains of infection, which surely this is what this is all about, then we have a chance of getting to a semi normal life and keep this virus in check.