No risk & a proven winner Rafa Benitez

[The Guest]

No backhanded compliments here; only open ones. A person who asks for logic and reasoning rather than laying straight into someone is preferable in my book. Maybe this has always been your way and I just haven't noticed before

 

Jairzinho is one the best posters on here I think.

[Benitaur]

If he comes back, how long do you give him to finish fourth?

 

Hypothetically speaking, if we finish the same position in the league and win absolutely nothing is that acceptable?

 

If he is given the financial backing like KK, 100 million I expect minimum 4th place the first season.

 

If he has to wheel and deal, I would reckon realistically 3 years, provided he improves every season, and his first season is at least an improvement from this (higher than 8th)

 

As for winning, winning cups are great, but we must still be relevant. Not mid table.

[billypilgrimnz]

Finishing 8th in this crappy league this season was unacceptable by our standards, undeniably. The only question was whether there was enough evidence that Kenny was going to be able to turn that around if given another season.

 

I'll admit, I have no bloody idea. Throughout most of the season, I was convinced that it was the overall poor quality of our first team players that is to blame, a general lack of genuine technical skill, game intelligence and heart, and was relatively happy with the tactics Kenny employed. But then came the constant use of Henderson on the right, persisting with Suarez as a lone striker, the inconsistant use of young players....stuff that could be circumstance (other players' poor form, bad training, injuries) or Kenny simply making decisions I disagreed with. But still, not the end of the world.

 

But the key question is: who was the main instigator of the dogmatic insistence on English experience, no matter what the cost? Because that is what screwed us this season - extremely poor signings that did absolutely nothing to address our major weaknesses. In fact, they made them worse.

 

I don't know any of those answers, so I'm feeling a little bit at a loss how to react. Any other manager and 8th place, I might be a bit more insistent it was the right decision, but on the other hand, if he stayed for another season, I wouldn't have made a peep - just waited to see how the transfers panned out and eager to see what Kenny was planning.

 

As I've said in another thread, whatever we do, we need a bloody SCOUTING NETWORK worth the name, and someone who can negotiate without screwing us over on every single damn contract. Our player recruitment has had too many off-seasons from hell that has set back our progress from the previous seasons (the summer of Diouf/Cheyrou, the summer of Aquilani, the summer of Downing/Henderson) and we need to be better at it. That's all.

 

EDIT: This could have gone in any other thread, I guess, but I was reacting to a comment somewhere in here. Oh well.

[Benitaur]

that's fair enough. It's those who can't acknowledge any fault in the man, particularly those who write off his last year as a blip, never to be repeated. I can't take those arguments seriously, because it ignores some major concerns.

 

If he had won anything in his last year, I would not have wanted him to go. That's a fact. The reality of what was happening to the club in the areas for which he had responsibility cannot be ignored or blamed totally on external factors. While I don't like the man, he's not the club. If Rafa had won the league once or twice, no-one would have been asking him to go. I'd have been made up as we were winning things - I'm not a teenager who wants to be proved right depute the impact that might have on the club. I just don't think he has the mentality, the approach or the character to succeed on the terms that we want to. If was winning, great. When he's not, and particularly when you're on a downward path that there's no getting out from, then you can't ignore all the other stuff. It would be the same with Mourinho. I don't like him either, but you tend to put that to one side if you're winning every week.

 

If its not a blip, then you have a very short memory

 

We improved year by year, and suddenly, the final year we crashed to 7th. Thats clear as day, and the stats prove this.

 

Our league position was 5,3,3,4,2 THEN 7. Our goal difference was improving year by year too. 11, 32, 30, 44, 50 THEN 26.

 

Our style improved too. We started off defensively the first 2 years, then got a strong spine, then started playing damn good attacking football. This is what typically all good managers do. Improve the defense, then improve the midfield and attack. Unfortunately, only the defensive part is remembered by some people

 

There is no coincidence that we started improving when he was allowed to splurge on Torres, Mascherano etc. The moment he has a decent budget, we improved tremendously in quality

 

The final year, we had to sell Alonso. Yes we bought Aquilani who was injured most of the season, but the extra money was supposed to go for Silva too. Again, sabotaged. Wheeling and dealing is all good and well if you get to use all the money. It fails when you have to use the profits to pay for the owner's loan.

 

So is the final season a blip? Based on the pattern, yes. Its not as if we were on a downward slide. We finished 2nd the season before, edged by only 4 points, and was the top scoring team in the league, scoring goals for fun against the Mancs, Real, Arsenal, Chelsea, Villa etc.

 

Statistically, our 2009 team played better, scored more goals, had a better goal difference, had more points than all our previous years going all the way back to 1988, and yet we didn't win the league.

 

2010 was the year we were supposed to win the league, instead we dropped to 7th. Instead of being financially backed to take the final step, instead our owners thought we were good enough, and we got the carpet pulled from under us.

[Skidfingers McGonical]

Does anyone have actual proof of the trouble Rafa was supposed to have caused during his tenure with us? And how bad was it?

 

And then ask yourself does it matter more than the results on the pitch.

 

Well Moores, Parry, Gerrard, Carragher and Carragher and Alonso absolutely hate him.

 

Throw in the press officer and you get yourself a nice little list growing.

 

I Would say it does matter, I want a new fresh face to come and run the club. We need to come back together as a fan base as this has split again and if Rafa was to come back (I don't think he will) it would be a smack in the mouth to a lot of the supporters and would alienate the owners even more than sacking Kenny has.

 

They have to get this right, by going with someone like AVB for example there will be scepticism of course, but he's only young, a year older than me I think, he has time to prove he can do the job.

 

I think they have get in a DoF that will be able to be left to run the football side of things and have the confidence to be able to the right deals in terms of money. He has to work hand in hand with the Manager to achieve the targets set by FSG and that appears to be top 4 minimum.

 

I don't necessarily agree that it is top 4 is everything related to success and I will argue till the cows come home that it's all about trophies, but I would be stupid to think FSG as business men would agree with me.

 

Yesterday fucked me off, not because that they made the decision about Kenny, I understand that they felt 8th wasn't good enough, it wasn't. Nobody said it was (but wind up merchants like silverlining like to twist the words used) what fucked me off was how Kenny was publicly humiliated by allowing this decision to drag out in the media for 24 hours. I know I can't have I both ways. The decision in my opinion should have been that Kenny stepped down after an agreement was reached that him and the owners felt it was the best.

 

I think Kenny deserves an honorary president type role akin to Bobby Charlton at United. I felt that the very last link to the old Liverpool Way died and will never return. And that was the hardest thing for me.

 

Kenny as ever was diplomatic and still offered to help the club if he was ever needed and that says a lot about the man himself and why some of the reactions have been passionate and angry. I believe he should have been able to put right the wrongs but alas he hasn't and spending the day drinking shit loads of red wine to celebrate my other half's birthday led to me being a bit of a bell because I was angry that he had been sacked. I could learn a lot from the King as many of us could.

 

After thinking about it and reading some of the statements by Kenny, I feel assure that it is probably the best thing for him as I thought he looked a different man toward the end of the season. He took a lot for that team, and a lot of then failed to repay the faith and trust he put in them and that royally fucks me off. Every senior player right through to the new signings need to take a look in the mirror today and decide if they have it in them to repay Kenny next season on the pitch and help us get back to where the money is (I don't feel comfortable saying that at all) if they haven't, put in a transfer request first thing tomorrow morning.

 

FSG need to get the DoF, CEO and Manger appointments absolutely spot on and lay out in public what the plan is. I believe that expectations are going to be high again, however if we get those 3 positions spot on then the pressure is on to get the transfers spot on also, as if it's not a top 4 finish next season will FSG sack their new men and start all over again?

 

Once again we have a summer where we are going to be living in hope rather than anticipation of success.

 

I will say this, going back again to Rafa as manager is not the way forward.

[The Guest]

Well Moores, Parry, Gerrard, Carragher and Alonso absolutely hate him.

 

Throw in the press officer and you get yourself a nice little list growing.

 

I Would say it does matter, I want a new fresh face to come and run the club. We need to come back together as a fan base as this has split again and if Rafa was to come back (I don't think he will) it would be a smack in the mouth to a lot of the supporters and would alienate the owners even more than sacking Kenny has.

 

They have to get this right, by going with someone like AVB for example there will be scepticism of course, but he's only young, a year older than me I think, he has time to prove he can do the job.

 

I think they have get in a DoF that will be able to be left to run the football side of things and have the confidence to be able to the right deals in terms of money. He has to work hand in hand with the Manager to achieve the targets set by FSG and that appears to be top 4 minimum.

 

I don't necessarily agree that it is top 4 is everything related to success and I will argue till the cows come home that it's all about trophies, but I would be stupid to think FSG as business men would agree with me.

 

Yesterday fucked me off, not because that they made the decision about Kenny, I understand that they felt 8th wasn't good enough, it wasn't. Nobody said it was (but wind up merchants like silverlining like to twist the words used) what fucked me off was how Kenny was publicly humiliated by allowing this decision to drag out in the media for 24 hours. I know I can't have I both ways. The decision in my opinion should have been that Kenny stepped down after an agreement was reached that him and the owners felt it was the best.

 

I think Kenny deserves an honorary president type role akin to Bobby Charlton at United. I felt that the very last link to the old Liverpool Way died and will never return. And that was the hardest thing for me.

 

Kenny as ever was diplomatic and still offered to help the club if he was ever needed and that says a lot about the man himself and why some of the reactions have been passionate and angry. I believe he should have been able to put right the wrongs but alas he hasn't and spending the day drinking shit loads of red wine to celebrate my other half's birthday led to me being a bit of a bell because I was angry that he had been sacked. I could learn a lot from the King as many of us could.

 

After thinking about it and reading some of the statements by Kenny, I feel assure that it is probably the best thing for him as I thought he looked a different man toward the end of the season. He took a lot for that team, and a lot of then failed to repay the faith and trust he put in them and that royally fucks me off. Every senior player right through to the new signings need to take a look in the mirror today and decide if they have it in them to repay Kenny next season on the pitch and help us get back to where the money is (I don't feel comfortable saying that at all) if they haven't, put in a transfer request first thing tomorrow morning.

 

FSG need to get the DoF, CEO and Manger appointments absolutely spot on and lay out in public what the plan is. I believe that expectations are going to be high again, however if we get those 3 positions spot on then the pressure is on to get the transfers spot on also, as if it's not a top 4 finish next season will FSG sack their new men and start all over again?

 

Once again we have a summer where we are going to be living in hope rather than anticipation of success.

 

I will say this, going back again to Rafa as manager is not the way forward.

 

Best post I've read since the news broke.

 

Luckily from what I have heard Ayre is on that list of people who cannot stand him so that should mean he doesn't stand a chance.

[2pak]

While I am not violently opposed to the idea of Benitez coming back under the right set up I do wander if some of us Liverpool fans are looking too much into the past and trying to relive some of the 'special' days we experienced. Having just gone through an uncomfortable sacking of the respectable King it seems unfathomable we would proceed to go back AGAIN and re-engage someone who was sacked only a few years back. Different circumstances I know but he left on very divided terms.

 

I really think it's time we look forward and try and get some new ideas into our on-pitch management, as much a gamble as it is.

[Benitaur]

Well Moores, Parry, Gerrard, Carragher and Carragher and Alonso absolutely hate him.

 

Throw in the press officer and you get yourself a nice little list growing.

 

 

LOL, Carra hates him double huh? Like it or not, Gerrard and Carra became world class because of Rafa. Not the other way around. I fail to see how their word suddenly becomes the last word. There was a mutiny at Valencia too, but over the years, even the players themselves admit that without Rafa, they were nothing.

 

And since when did Moores and Parry suddenly became the good guys again, after selling the club to H&G? Enemy of my enemy is my friend type thing is it?

 

As for the press officer, he should just fuck off.

 

Look at how the other clubs handle their affairs. Do you see Terry having as much a hard time in the media as Suarez? I don't see Barca sweating at all, when Messi is accused of exactly the same thing as Suarez

 

Someone's to blame for the media incompetence, and it surely isn't Kenny. If anything, its just another example of how unprofessional our club has been run for decades.

 

Look at how hard Rafa has been fighting over the years for control of the academy, bringing in the Barca coaches. Now the much praised academy is doing well, but not too long ago this was another albatross hung on Rafa's neck

[Benitaur]

While I am not violently opposed to the idea of Benitez coming back under the right set up I do wander if some of us Liverpool fans are looking too much into the past and trying to relive some of the 'special' days we experienced. Having just gone through an uncomfortable sacking of the respectable King it seems unfathomable we would proceed to go back AGAIN and re-engage someone who was sacked only a few years back. Different circumstances I know but he left on very divided terms.

 

I really think it's time we look forward and try and get some new ideas into our on-pitch management, as much a gamble as it is.

 

It is one thing to go back to a former legendary manager, who was boss 2 decades ago and expect miracles.

 

It is another thing to go back to a former manager, who is still regarded as one of the top managers in the world, who's team and backroom staff are still mostly intact, and who left with unfinished business, and hope to get back on track

 

Yes Kenny left with unfinished business. But that was 20+ years ago!

 

I wouldn't bring Rafa back if most of the players have changed as have most of the staff. However, this is still pretty much his team

[esoteric]

I don't see appointing Rafa as going back I see it as allowing him a chance to finish what he started. Seeing Kenny in the job, for however brief a time, gave me more pleasure than I'd really like to admit but I don't think Rafa should have been sacked in the first place and I'd be delighted to see him back.

[fowler9]

and still no evidence that Carragher, Gerrard or Alonso hated him?

[Major Tom]

and still no evidence that Carragher, Gerrard or Alonso hated him?

 

Did you not get that email?

[Jonny83]

[The Guest]

LOL, Carra hates him double huh? Like it or not, Gerrard and Carra became world class because of Rafa. Not the other way around. I fail to see how their word suddenly becomes the last word. There was a mutiny at Valencia too, but over the years, even the players themselves admit that without Rafa, they were nothing.

 

And since when did Moores and Parry suddenly became the good guys again, after selling the club to H&G? Enemy of my enemy is my friend type thing is it?

 

As for the press officer, he should just fuck off.

 

Look at how the other clubs handle their affairs. Do you see Terry having as much a hard time in the media as Suarez? I don't see Barca sweating at all, when Messi is accused of exactly the same thing as Suarez

 

Someone's to blame for the media incompetence, and it surely isn't Kenny. If anything, its just another example of how unprofessional our club has been run for decades.

 

Look at how hard Rafa has been fighting over the years for control of the academy, bringing in the Barca coaches. Now the much praised academy is doing well, but not too long ago this was another albatross hung on Rafa's neck

 

It goes to show when you must have started supporting us. Gerrard was already one of the best centre mids in world football before Benitez arrived. It's why we won the champions league. You are literally the most stupid cunt on here if not the internet itself.

[Major Tom]

I don't see appointing Rafa as going back I see it as allowing him a chance to finish what he started. Seeing Kenny in the job, for however brief a time, gave me more pleasure than I'd really like to admit but I don't think Rafa should have been sacked in the first place and I'd be delighted to see him back.

 

As would a lot of people. But there are plenty who don't want him also.

 

Solution? Start afresh with someone new. Jurgen Klopp for instance. He may well turn us down but, at the very least, ask the bleeding question!

[moof]

This is ridiculous. Shall we let Ged back for another go? What about Souness or Evans?

 

It's time to move on, away from the past and especially away from Rafa.

 

This is getting fucking embarrassing now.

[Major Tom]

Personally I wish Benitaur would get off the fence.

[fowler9]

It goes to show when you must have started supporting us. Gerrard was already one of the best centre mids in world football before Benitez arrived. It's why we won the champions league. You are literally the most stupid cunt on here if not the internet itself.

 

whilst he was already brilliant he did get even better when Rafa arrived, whether that was natural progression with age, down to Rafa or both who knows

[esoteric]

...You are literally the most stupid cunt on here if not the internet itself.

 

 

Is he havin a laugh?

[Skidfingers McGonical]

 

LOL, Carra hates him double huh? Like it or not, Gerrard and Carra became world class because of Rafa. Not the other way around. I fail to see how their word suddenly becomes the last word. There was a mutiny at Valencia too, but over the years, even the players themselves admit that without Rafa, they were nothing.

 

And since when did Moores and Parry suddenly became the good guys again, after selling the club to H&G? Enemy of my enemy is my friend type thing is it?

 

As for the press officer, he should just fuck off.

 

Look at how the other clubs handle their affairs. Do you see Terry having as much a hard time in the media as Suarez? I don't see Barca sweating at all, when Messi is accused of exactly the same thing as Suarez

 

Someone's to blame for the media incompetence, and it surely isn't Kenny. If anything, its just another example of how unprofessional our club has been run for decades.

 

Look at how hard Rafa has been fighting over the years for control of the academy, bringing in the Barca coaches. Now the much praised academy is doing well, but not too long ago this was another albatross hung on Rafa's neck

 

What the hell are on about.

 

You seem to have missed the point of my post.

 

By light years.

[Flying Pig]

It goes to show when you must have started supporting us. Gerrard was already one of the best centre mids in world football before Benitez arrived. It's why we won the champions league. You are literally the most stupid cunt on here if not the internet itself.

 

Bit harsh. Benitaur is not saying SG is not world class, he is explaining that Gerrard improved under Rafa; that can't be disputed. And to lower yourself to call him a cunt is a sign of desperation when losing an argument.

[Flying Pig]

Personally I wish Benitaur would get off the fence.

 

Call me Miss Marple but my spider sense is telling me he might like Rafa. And good on him.

[Evil_Ways]

As would a lot of people. But there are plenty who don't want him also.

 

Solution? Start afresh with someone new. Jurgen Klopp for instance. He may well turn us down but, at the very least, ask the bleeding question!

 

No one has been able to give a good logical reason as to why Rafa Benitez would be the wrong man though.

 

"He's already been here" or "start afresh" is no good reason nor is the 09/10 season considering all the fucking bullshit which was going on.

 

What has Klopp done compared to Rafa Benitez ?

Not that i'd be disappointed with Klopp, he's done fantastically well at Dortmund. And with proper backing i think he'd do well here too.

 

However he is under contract at Dortmund.

[Major Tom]

No one has been able to give a good logical reason as to why Rafa Benitez would be the wrong man though.

 

 

It depends how you view things, EW. But people have aired why they would rather stay clear of Benitez plenty of times, including in this thread. Where some are prone to blame G&H entirely for the 7th place finish, others think Benitez was culpable as well.

 

But this has been done to death. I can see why people want Benitez back. I personally don't agree but we'll see.

[Major Tom]

And to lower yourself to call him a cunt is a sign of desperation when losing an argument.

 

Brilliant. I win a lot of arguments daily on this forum then.

 

I knew it!