Will kenny still be in charge next season?

[Paco]

depends whether he wins the cup or not.

 

we're on course for our worst ever premier league finish, two thirds of his signings have been disastrous but we've won the league cup and we're in the semi final of the other 1.

 

As shearer said we've entered 3 comps this season, won 1, semi final at least of another but the league form, patchy all season, has now disintegrated.

 

Will he be here next season? really I wouldn't be surprised either way. Depends how much the owners wanted CL football this season, is there anyone available to take over? is this season par for the course while we rebuild?

 

we'll just have to wait and see. I'd say winning the cup will be very important though.

[thompsonsnose]

It actually is.

 

I'll just use Klopp as the example. He came into Borussia Dortmund with a plan to play a 4-3-3 formation, with high pressing attacking football.

 

Remember Dortmund do not have the budget of Bayern Munich yet Klopp has built a successful team on a shoestring budget. They won the league last year, and are top at the minute. Also the average age is only about 23-25. They're all young lads.

 

The point is Dortmund where nowhere when he took over, and because of his philosophy on their playing style they have won one of the toughest leagues in the world in a short space of time.

 

It is possible, but the manager must be the right one!!

 

 

I think Danny Murphy has this right. About the pressures at a big club.

So why not try recruiting some young hungry players with no fear.

Rather than known mediocre journeymen?

Its probably our only way out now. Other than the odd marquee signing.

[benite]

It actually is.

 

I'll just use Klopp as the example. He came into Borussia Dortmund with a plan to play a 4-3-3 formation, with high pressing attacking football.

 

Remember Dortmund do not have the budget of Bayern Munich yet Klopp has built a successful team on a shoestring budget. They won the league last year, and are top at the minute. Also the average age is only about 23-25. They're all young lads.

 

The point is Dortmund where nowhere when he took over, and because of his philosophy on their playing style they have won one of the toughest leagues in the world in a short space of time.

 

It is possible, but the manager must be the right one!!

 

But playing for or managing Dortmund doesn't bring anything near the pressure it brings when your playing for us.

 

When you sign for us, rightly or wrongly our past trials and tribulations comes along and are placed firmly on your shoulders. The players we have cannot step up to that, and i cant see any other foreign entity (manager) coming in and being able to live up to the pressure of playing/managing for our club.

 

You only have to look at Kenny face at the final whistle of the semi against City to see how much this club means to him, and him KNOWING how much this means to us.

 

If we get in another manager from wherever, we are at huge risk again of the same cycle of hope to despair that has existed around the club for the last 20 odd years.

 

My opinion now, is that its not as easy as just sacking the manager, other people within the club need to take a large share of responsibility it cant just be always the manager!!

[benite]

I think Danny Murphy has this right. About the pressures at a big club.

So why not try recruiting some young hungry players with no fear.

Rather than known mediocre journeymen?

Its probably our only way out now. Other than the odd marquee signing.

 

Nailed on, im all about that.

[SwindleThis]

OK, I'm going to use what some might consider to be a highbrow analogy here - it's not to be taken literally, but the members with a modicum of intelligence will know exactly what I'm getting at:

Comparing the Way of the carpenter to strategy

The comparison with carpentry is through the connection with houses. Houses of the nobility, houses of warriors, the Four houses, ruin of houses, thriving of houses, the style of the house, the tradition of the house, and the name of the house. The carpenter uses a master plan of the building, and the Way of strategy is similar in that there is a plan of campaign. If you want to learn the craft of war, ponder over this book. The teacher is as a needle, the disciple is as thread. You must practice constantly.

 

Like the foreman carpenter, the commander must know natural rules, and the rules of the country, and the rules of houses. This is the Way of the foreman.

 

The foreman carpenter must know the architectural theory of towers and temples, and the plans of palaces, and must employ men to raise up houses. The Way of the foreman carpenter is the same as the Way of the commander of a warrior house.

 

In the contruction of houses, choice of woods is made. Straight un-knotted timber of good appearance is used for the revealed pillars, straight timber with small defects is used for the innter pillars. Timber of the finest appearance, even if a little weak, is used for the thresholds, lintels, doors, and sliding doors, and so on. Good strong timber, though it be gnarled and knotted, can always be used discreetly in construction. Timber which is weak or knotted throughout should be used as scaffolding, and later for firewood.

 

The foreman carpenter allots his men work according to their ability. Floor layers, makers of sliding doors, thresholds and lintels, ceilings and so on. Those of poor ability lay the floor joist, and those of lesser ability carve wedges and do such miscellaneous work. If the foreman knows and deploys his men well the finished work will be good.

 

The foreman should take into account the abilities and limitations of his men, circulating among them and asking nothing unreasonable. He should know their morale and spirit, and encourage them when necessary. This is the same as the principle of strategy.

 

The Way of Strategy

Like a trooper, the carpenter sharpens his own tools. He carries his equipment in his tool box, and works under the direction of his foreman. He makes culumns and girders with an axe, shapes floorboards and shelves with a plane, cuts fine openwork and carvings accurately, giving as excellent a finish as his skill will allow. This is the craft of carpenters. When the carpenter becomes skilled and understands measures he can become a foreman

 

The carpenter's attainment is, having tools which will cut well, to make small shrines, writing shelves, tables, paper lanterns, chopping boards and pot-lids. These are the specialities of the carpenter. Things are similar for the trooper. You ought to think deeply about this.

 

The attainment of the carpenter is that his work is not warped, that the joints are not misaligned, and that the work is truly planed so that it meets well and is not merely finished in sections. This is essential.

 

If you want to learn this Way, deeply consider the things written in this book one at a time. You must do sufficient research.

 

Outline of the Five Books of this Book of Strategy

The Way is shown in five books concerning different aspects. These are Ground, Water, Fire, Tradition (Wind), and Void.

 

The body of the Way of strategy from the viewpoint of my Ichi school is explained in the Ground book. It is difficult to realise the true Way just through sword-fencing. Know the smallest things and the biggest things, the shallowest things and the deepest things. As if it were a straight road mapped out on the ground, the first book is called the Ground book.

 

Second is the Water book. With water as the basis, the spirit becomes like water. Water adopts the shape of its receptacle, it is sometimes a trickle and sometimes a wild sea. Water has a clear blue colour. By the clarity, things of Ichi school are shown in this book.

 

If you master the principles of sword-fencing, when you freely beat one man, you beat any man in the world. The spirit of defeating a man is the same for ten million men. The strategist makes small things into big things, like building a great Buddha from one foot model. I cannot write in detail how this is done. The principle of strategy is having one thing, to know ten thousand things. Things of Ichi school are written in this the Water book.

 

Third is the Fire book. This book is about fighting. The spirit of fire is fierce, whether the fire be small or big; and so it is with battles. The Way of battles is the same for man to man fights and for ten thousand a side battles. You must appreciate that spirit can become big or small. What is big is easy to perceive: what is small is difficult to perceive. In short, it is difficult for large numbers of men to change position, so their movements can be easily predicted. An individual can easily change his mind, so his movements are difficult to predict. You must appreciate this. The essence of this book is that you must train day and night in order to make quick decisions. In strategy it is necessary to treat training as a part of normal life with your spirit unchanging. Thus combat in battle is described in the Fire book.

 

Fourthly the Wind book. This book is not concerned with my Ichi school but with other schools of strategy. By Wind I mean old traditions, present-day traditions, and family traditions of strategy. Thus I clearly explain the strategies of the world. This is tradition. It is difficult to know yourself if you do not know others. To all Ways there are side-tracks. If you study a Way daily, and your spirit diverges, you may think you are obeying a good way, but objectively it is not the true Way. If you are following the true Way and diverge a little, this will later become a large divergence. You must realise this. Other strategies have come to be thought of as mere sword-fencing, and it is not unreasonable that this should be so. The benefit of my strategy, although it includes sword-fencing, lies in a separate principle. I have explained what is commonly meant by strategy in other schools in the Tradition (Wind) book.

 

Fifthly, the book of the Void. By Void I mean that which has no beginning and no end. Attaining this principle means not attaining the principle. The Way of strategy is the Way of nature. When you appreciate the power of nature, knowing the rhythm of any situation, you will be able to hit the enemy naturally and strike naturally. All this is the Way of the Void. I intend to show how to follow the true Way according to nature in the book of the Void.

A Book of Five Rings

 

Now, that said, FSG can be ruthless, as they showed at the redsox.

 

So they have 2 options to take us forwards, and it really comes down to stick or twist - they either give KK the rest of his contract to see if he can build something and hope for a long term return, or they bring in someone else, and take the gamble that he will speed up the process of being competitive.

 

Neither option is particularly palatable to me, unless the new manager is someone who already knows the club and what needs to be done, which opens a whole new can of worms.

[dickie mint]

That's the million dollar question isn't it.

 

Klopp, Loew, Hiddink, the Espanyol manager, I can't remember his name but he speaks fluent English.

 

Frank de boer, Brendan Rodgers.

 

The list is actually quite big. But IMO it should be somebody fairly young

 

 

Brendan Rodgers are you taking the piss.

[xerxes]

we're on course for our worst ever premier league finish, two thirds of his signings have been disastrous but we've won the league cup and we're in the semi final of the other 1.

 

As shearer said we've entered 3 comps this season, won 1, semi final at least of another but the league form, patchy all season, has now disintegrated.

 

Will he be here next season? really I wouldn't be surprised either way. Depends how much the owners wanted CL football this season, is there anyone available to take over? is this season par for the course while we rebuild?

 

we'll just have to wait and see. I'd say winning the cup will be very important though.

 

I agree.

 

If Kenny completes the domestic cup double, he joins only three other managers in the history of the English game to achieve that, George Graham at Arsenal, Mourinho at Chelsea, and Houllier here.

 

He has a huge sense of history, it is not surprising that with us already qualified for Europe, he is concentrating on the FA Cup now.

[Pony Princess]

For good or bad, I suspect he may resign at the end of the season. People saying he will not, because he wants a pay off, need to rattle their heads. Disgraceful.

[TheHowieLama]

Not saying he will or should go, but there is currently a club legend managing a top level European team with history, who has in depth understanding of the modern game and players and would have immediate respect in the dressing room and perhaps, a better eye for players. Just saying.

[chrisbonnie]

 

Brendan Rodgers are you taking the piss.

 

I don't want him, but is imagine if we where to draw up a list of potential managers he would be there, somewhere anyway

[chrisbonnie]

Not saying he will or should go, but there is currently a club legend managing a top level European team with history, who has in depth understanding of the modern game and players and would have immediate respect in the dressing room and perhaps, a better eye for players. Just saying.

 

Who?

[kalasoma]

Sami Hyppia? At Bayern Leverkusen? Seriously is that the suggestion?

[SwindleThis]

For good or bad, I suspect he may resign at the end of the season. People saying he will not, because he wants a pay off, need to rattle their heads. Disgraceful.

 

Anyone who thinks KD will put money ahead of the club needs a serious kicking.

 

End of.

 

The same goes for those who revel in defeats because it "proves them right" in one way or another, in their vacuous little minds.

 

Only Kenny knows, and I have no doubt he will do what's best for the club, not himself.

[SwindleThis]

Sami Hyppia? At Bayern Leverkusen? Seriously is that the suggestion?

 

I'd love him here on the coaching staff, and I suspect that another ex-manager would as well - the guy knows his stuff, and helped make Carra the legend he is simply by playing alongside him.

 

However, I doubt he is up to the job of manager yet - in time maybe, but not yet.

[Trumo]

If I had to select a tipping point, it would be the moment we chose to 'move on' after the game at Old Trafford. We all know about the incidents leading up to the events of that day.

 

In the aftermath of all the grovelling apologies, I pointed out my worries about how, instead of allowing the club to focus on matters at hand (namely, performances and results on the pitch), my biggest concern about 'moving on' was that it would give everybody the impression of Liverpool as a club that can be beaten down and will not stand up to fight its corner. When I say 'everybody', I include the players and club staff too because, like it or not, their unanimous backing of a player and club they felt had been badly wronged had been forcibly tossed aside for some supposed greater good, without ever determining if it was a greater good that would benefit LFC in any way. They’ve basically been made to look like idiots for their earlier stance, and I reckon this psychological kick to the guts has created a simmering resentment which a squad in transition is now struggling to overcome.

 

Kenny with his statements up to that point seemed to be looking at matters from the same perspective as myself. He was then effectively asked to change tack, make an apology in public and help the club 'move on'. I don’t think the players have lost respect for him over it because I reckon they know he resented having to do it. His verbal sparring with the media up to that point was typical Kenny, but after being forced to apologise to Whiskeynose, Shreeves etc, he probably feels he cannot be his usual self with the media because his usual demeanour will be jumped upon. The apology gave them their cue to try and get the upper hand on him, and he now gives the impression of having to bite his tongue every time he has to speak to a journalist. If any of you had to do your job with one hand tied behind your back, soon enough you’d look exhausted and defeated too. Unless you are the new Houdini of course!

 

Everybody else, including some of our own, wanted us to ‘move on’. I genuinely think we are now seeing the net result of going along with that. The cup runs are largely papering over the yawning chasm that has opened up, because they’ve served as a useful distraction, and because the most of the games have been played on home turf.

 

Incidentally, nobody on here has ever taken me to task on anything I’ve even written on the matter, including my own personal viewpoint. Whether that is because a large number are in agreement I don’t know, because I DO know that many people on this forum were happy for the matter to be put to bed, thinking that ‘moving on’ would achieve that. I was convinced that that would never be the case, even if the club and players were out of the media spotlight, because the consequences in the aftermath were never considered. Outsiders and non-LFC fans don’t need to or want to consider it, but too many LFC fans have also gone along with that line of reasoning.

 

Could the whole thing have been handled better? Undoubtedly. But LFC were, from the moment the original allegations were made back in October, forced to take a fighting stance. I think the way the story was broken pushed Liverpool into a corner from where they needed to come out in the manner they initially did. On that score, my line of reasoning can be found in several threads on this forum.

 

You know the scene in The Godfather Part II where Michael berates Fredo for taking sides with Hyman Roth over how he was being treated whilst working at the casino in Vegas? Well, aside from the manner in which Michael ultimately dealt with the matter, he had a point. We can have dealings with any number of Hyman Roths. We can work alongside them too. But we must NEVER give them the opportunity to kick down everything we have and are trying to build.

 

A lot of you are saying there is something wrong but can't put your finger on it. I think I just have.

[thompsonsnose]

Anyone who thinks KD will put money ahead of the club needs a serious kicking.

 

End of.

 

The same goes for those who revel in defeats because it "proves them right" in one way or another, in their vacuous little minds.

 

Only Kenny knows, and I have no doubt he will do what's best for the club, not himself.

 

There's a world of difference between revelling in defeats, and pointing out to a load of internet superfan mongs that they were 100% WRONG in their early season blinkered oblivion.

PS I admit, i didn't expect it to be THIS bad.

So i'm wrong too.

[thompsonsnose]

If I had to select a tipping point, it would be the moment we chose to 'move on' after the game at Old Trafford. We all know about the incidents leading up to the events of that day.

 

In the aftermath of all the grovelling apologies, I pointed out my worries about how, instead of allowing the club to focus on matters at hand (namely, performances and results on the pitch), my biggest concern about 'moving on' was that it would give everybody the impression of Liverpool as a club that can be beaten down and will not stand up to fight its corner. When I say 'everybody', I include the players and club staff too because, like it or not, their unanimous backing of a player and club they felt had been badly wronged had been forcibly tossed aside for some supposed greater good, without ever determining if it was a greater good that would benefit LFC in any way. They’ve basically been made to look like idiots for their earlier stance, and I reckon this psychological kick to the guts has created a simmering resentment which a squad in transition is now struggling to overcome.

 

Kenny with his statements up to that point seemed to be looking at matters from the same perspective as myself. He was then effectively asked to change tack, make an apology in public and help the club 'move on'. I don’t think the players have lost respect for him over it because I reckon they know he resented having to do it. His verbal sparring with the media up to that point was typical Kenny, but after being forced to apologise to Whiskeynose, Shreeves etc, he probably feels he cannot be his usual self with the media because his usual demeanour will be jumped upon. The apology gave them their cue to try and get the upper hand on him, and he now gives the impression of having to bite his tongue every time he has to speak to a journalist. If any of you had to do your job with one hand tied behind your back, soon enough you’d look exhausted and defeated too. Unless you are the new Houdini of course!

 

Everybody else, including some of our own, wanted us to ‘move on’. I genuinely think we are now seeing the net result of going along with that. The cup runs are largely papering over the yawning chasm that has opened up, because they’ve served as a useful distraction, and because the most of the games have been played on home turf.

 

Incidentally, nobody on here has ever taken me to task on anything I’ve even written on the matter, including my own personal viewpoint. Whether that is because a large number are in agreement I don’t know, because I DO know that many people on this forum were happy for the matter to be put to bed, thinking that ‘moving on’ would achieve that. I was convinced that that would never be the case, even if the club and players were out of the media spotlight, because the consequences in the aftermath were never considered. Outsiders and non-LFC fans don’t need to or want to consider it, but too many LFC fans have also gone along with that line of reasoning.

 

Could the whole thing have been handled better? Undoubtedly. But LFC were, from the moment the original allegations were made back in October, forced to take a fighting stance. I think the way the story was broken pushed Liverpool into a corner from where they needed to come out in the manner they initially did. On that score, my line of reasoning can be found in several threads on this forum.

 

You know the scene in The Godfather Part II where Michael berates Fredo for taking sides with Hyman Roth over how he was being treated whilst working at the casino in Vegas? Well, aside from the manner in which Michael ultimately dealt with the matter, he had a point. We can have dealings with any number of Hyman Roths. We can work alongside them too. But we must NEVER give them the opportunity to kick down everything we have and are trying to build.

 

A lot of you are saying there is something wrong but can't put your finger on it. I think I just have.

 

Kenny is a passionate man.

It wouldn't have taken Sigmund Freud to work out that the Suarez affair got under his wire.

Sorry to harp on but i made this point about 2 months ago.

I think Kenny hates modern football, and has quietly switched off.

He will walk at seasons end.

[Sangria]

I have settled down a bit, still fucking hurting but I tell you one man who will be hurting as much as any of us and that is Kenneth Mathieson Dalglish, to some it might not mean that much but when you talk legends there you have one.

He needs another year, no ifs or buts or maybes, fuck it we are not Chelsea or the fucking likes, the stupid Geordie fucks booing a player who was one of them and got sold for a fortune, probably against his will. Who did they not boo the stupid pricks.

 

We are Liverpool FC and we can always be proud.

[TheHowieLama]

Sami Hyppia? At Bayern Leverkusen? Seriously is that the suggestion?

 

Villas-Boas had one season with a relegation squad, then went to Porto - then to arguably the hottest job in the world in the space of 18 months.

 

Guardiola never managed a top tier team.

 

Just saying.

[DooooodekNo5]

OP you bottled out of asking the real question 'Should Kenny be given another season ? Yes or No'

[brucespanner]

I was speaking to Manc before, I've mentioned him before on here, good bloke, loves Kenny and, as unbelievable as this sounds, wants him to turn it round, still wants him, and Liverpool as a whole, to fall short, but respects the man for all he did after Hillsborough

 

Anyway we got to talking about the toxic environment around of club at the moment and I said the day Kenny is booed at Anfield is officially the day I fucking give up......His reply 'Same here mate' if he can see that why the fuck can't our 'fans'? I can see this coming as well.

 

The man gave his sanity for this club, a little fucking respect is due. Yes things haven't been great, but it's only a game, a fucking game! Maybe we'll see a change, maybe we won't, but for the love of all that's fucking holy have some fucking respect for a man who's given more than all of us combined will ever dream of for this club and city.

[benite]

I was speaking to Manc before, I've mentioned him before on here, good bloke, loves Kenny and, as unbelievable as this sounds, wants him to turn it round, still wants him, and Liverpool as a whole, to fall short, but respects the man for all he did after Hillsborough

 

Anyway we got to talking about the toxic environment around of club at the moment and I said the day Kenny is booed at Anfield is officially the day I fucking give up......His reply 'Same here mate' if he can see that why the fuck can't our 'fans'? I can see this coming as well.

 

The man gave his sanity for this club, a little fucking respect is due. Yes things haven't been great, but it's only a game, a fucking game! Maybe we'll see a change, maybe we won't, but for the love of all that's fucking holy have some fucking respect for a man who's given more than all of us combined will ever dream of for this club and city.

 

Spot on, good post

[xerxes]

A lot of you are saying there is something wrong but can't put your finger on it.

 

 

An interesting, well argued post, Trumo.

 

I will give you another scenario, that the Suarez affair has been far more divisive internally than we realise.

 

Suarez may be feeling let down by the Club, and bewildered that those who he trusted (Kenny, Comolli and Ayre) ultimately could not deliver.

 

Kenny may be feeling let down by Ayre whose gross incompetence undoubtedly was at the heart of the shambles. Ayre may be feeling guilty about his role and feel he is losing control (Kenny and GJ’s subsequent interviews after we were supposed to be in lock-down). Ayre may feel let down by FSG who provided no PR media support, then apparently drew a line. Kenny may also feel let down by Comolli (whose words condemned Suarez) and Comolli, already vulnerable to attack on the transfer dealings may be retreating into his own shell, compounded by his Suarez gaffe, with Kenny worrying that he is whispering into FSG’s ear as his troubles mount. Whilst the players ask WTF?

 

There is clearly something wrong in the camp.

[Colonol]

I believe he will leave by "mutual consent" citing "family reasons" which is the owners sacking him but Kenny saving face. I hope he stays on in some role. Great man to have a round but well past it as a manager and he looks lost on the sidelines. It's painful to watch such a great man who loves the club so much in this situation.

 

The players bought may not have been Kenny's men (although I think they are) but the policy to buy British would certainly have been. I'd get rid of Comolli too.

[G Richards]

I think he will still be here next season. Last season we saw so much from Kenny's team to fill us with hope for this season, but it hasn't worked out. Having said that, a trophy was added and we are still going strong in the FA Cup.

 

Kenny deserves another season to see if he can turn things around in the league. I know the argument can be made to stop the rot and make a change, but what's to say that will be successful? And without a bottomless pit of money and the advent of FFP rules, we will have to view this as a 3 year project to begin to see where we are at.

 

We've returned to trophy winning ways which is very welcome. Now we have to crack the league. We are miles off at the moment, but I'd keep Kenny in there. He will crack it. Keep the faith.