Rafa- it's time to go

[ottawa_lfc]

That bit in bold is absolute utter bullshit. For you to accuse people who aren't happy with Rafa, of not realising how bad the owners are, is disgraceful.

 

Ah-ha! A discussion!

 

Why is that the case though?

 

Rafa is a top manager - he really is - and wherever he goes next, whenever that may be, he will do well.

 

Why is he not doing well here at the moment? For me, it is because he cannot buy what we need: a top class striker - Villa; a top-class midfielder - Barry (for the sake of argument); and a top-class winger (Quaresma - just for a laugh). Why can't he do that?

 

Again, for me, it is because there is no money. Now long term, this may be the making of the club (fucking woefully optimistic here, I know) and we may get Kelly, Spearing, Eccleston, Amoo and other top prospects coming in and shining. But short term, it is going to be a struggle. If we had the money from ALonso, say, plus the 20M reports say Benitwz was due to get, we may have filled in one or two of the holes this season... but we don't - and it is due to the owners. So I disagree strongly with what you've said, I'm afraid.

 

For me, this is down to the owners. It all stems from them. I'm sure we could sit down and go through every single transfer Benitez has made and justify it. Babel - Nunez - Kronkamp et al. They may not work out - so many don't - but you can justify why it has been made.

 

People jump on bandwagons, jerk knees, do all sorts of stupid things. Not me... I'm different:whistle:

[DJLJ]

Which ones? Look, I'm not saying the decisions were right, but FFS, TRY and understand, at least, what he was doing.

 

Torres off? Injured, not recovered, if he pulls something in the last 30 mins (which is when it is most likely to happen) then he is out for 3-4 weeks. That is a HUGE fucking gamble.

 

Benayoun off? - that is much harder to understand - but Benayoun was not playing well - it was a choice between him and Kuyt for me.

 

Eccleston on? Why the fuck not? He gets slated for not using the youth system - and he is using it. So he gets slated for using the youth system.

 

Playing Carra and Zorba? - Carra was fine today - and IMHO that was NEVER a red card, he tackled from the side and won the ball cleanly.

 

Lucas? Masch? Both fine - if anything, Masch was he worse of the two - and I love him as a player.

 

Voronin - some tit negged me for saying Voronin had a good first half. He had a fucking great first half, then disappeared in the second. But he kept on fighting for the ball. That is the attitude we want. He may have been useless at times during his first spell, but he also had some very good matches. People want him to fail - and Lucas - so they can use it as a stick to bash rafa with. He could easily have been subbed today, but he wasn't.

 

Degen/Insua - both were poor today - Degen is a liability in defence at the moment. I wouldn't blame Kuyt for keeping the ball in and losing possession - I'd blame Degen for not being aware of what was happening and for not getting back in time to cover. However, the decision to play both attacking defenders was not a bad decision for me - I mean, you can see what he was trying to do, no? The first 45 showed what he wanted to do - have Kuyt & Degen link up on the right, & Insua & Benayoun on the left. First half was excellent - second was crap.

 

I agree that the result is disappointing - hugely disappointing - and that there has to be a shake up. But where/how? Getting rid of Benitez solves nothing short term - he is a superb tactician, knows the players, and is working with his hands tied behind his back. If this swine flu rumour is true - and if we have the following players out/injured/sick, then who else would you have played - and how would you have approached this game?

Johnston, Agger, Skrtel, Aurelio, Gerrard, Ngog, Riera, Aquilani, Cavalieri, Kelly ...

 

We have a paper thin squad... whose fault? Rafa's? Who should he have bought? He spent 20M on Aquilani - which was a gamble, but which may pay off. I'd say it hasn't worked - but who else could have come in to replace Alonso (and let's not get into the Alonso should not have been allowed to leave stuff)? Barry? We have no money to buy the best players. And here's the rub. We buy average to good players because that is all we can afford. And then we make them worse by shattering their confidence (Lucas, Babel (maybe)). It's a lose-lose situation, and all this ridiculous knee-jerk bollocks from people - including a lot of people on here - only exacerbates the situation.

 

It's not complicated. Either you think Hicks and Gillett are out to rape the club - in which case you can't blame Rafa - or you don't. If you don't, then it's down to Rafa.

 

I know where I am.

 

You have no idea why Benitez did what he did, you are speculating. That follows through in the rest of your post.

[Brownie]

In terms of replacing a manager, i've always been in the 'judge the season in May' camp, unless there are exceptional circumstances.

 

If we lose on Wednesday then it could be debatable that exceptional circumstances have come into play.

 

It's difficult to decide whether it's beneficial to replace managers mid season, there are equally valid arguments either way. It could be good to have time with a team to bed in with your style and then see where you need to strengthen etc.

 

You still HAVE to get results though because there are minimum requirements in play.

 

Tough one.

[Guest ShoePiss]

You have no idea why Benitez did what he did, you are speculating. That follows through in the rest of your post.

 

That's the same for the hysterical tools crying about the subs also

[ottawa_lfc]

You have no idea why Benitez did what he did, you are speculating. That follows through in the rest of your post.

 

I agree - what I said was I was trying to think why he made those decisions. They are all justifiable - even if they didn't work out. Of course I have no idea why he did it - I'm just trying to balance the books a bit here

[Unrighteous]

Anyone who believes that Rafa hasn't had enough money to build a decent squad by now, is fucking deluded.

 

We've had the players and the time to have a squad where the second XI should be able to win games against mid-table sides.

 

But, Rafa has not put together a decent squad.

[Guest ShoePiss]

In terms of replacing a manager, i've always been in the 'judge the season in May' camp, unless there are exceptional circumstances.

 

If we lose on Wednesday then it could be debatable that exceptional circumstances have come into play.

 

It's difficult to decide whether it's beneficial to replace managers mid season, there are equally valid arguments either way. It could be good to have time with a team to bed in with your style and then see where you need to strengthen etc.

 

You still HAVE to get results though because there are minimum requirements in play.

 

Tough one.

 

yeah and what point is it considered free fall? I'm very afraid of this happening for a number of reasons but the fact that those two owners will have a say in it scares the shit out of me.

 

I still don't see anyone doing a better job but if players don't want to play for him there's not much that can be done.

[Tyler Durden]

I'd say no - not in a given year.

 

However, given a number of years of this being the case, then yes - probably close to every time.

 

You could look at the last 3 years alone in our league and see that it isnt the case, let alone any others

[Guest ShoePiss]

Anyone who believes that Rafa hasn't had enough money to build a decent squad by now, is fucking deluded.

 

We've had the players and the time to have a squad where the second XI should be able to win games against mid-table sides.

 

But, Rafa has not put together a decent squad.

 

It is decent, it will not win us the league though. We'll finish in the top four, it won't be a surprise.

[rebel23]

In terms of replacing a manager, i've always been in the 'judge the season in May' camp, unless there are exceptional circumstances.

 

If we lose on Wednesday then it could be debatable that exceptional circumstances have come into play.

 

It's difficult to decide whether it's beneficial to replace managers mid season, there are equally valid arguments either way. It could be good to have time with a team to bed in with your style and then see where you need to strengthen etc.

 

You still HAVE to get results though because there are minimum requirements in play.

 

Tough one.

 

he shouldnt be sacked for not getting out of the group stages in a competition he has done so well for this club in. it's stupid and the sort of entitlement that has sunk many clubs, there really is no need to panic whatever happens because I know and you know that we'll play fucking boss football when everyone is back and firing (it might be too late)

 

you may remember I suggested it would get worse before it gets better because I can see what he has to work with

[elvis]

Ah-ha! A discussion!

 

Why is that the case though?

 

Rafa is a top manager - he really is - and wherever he goes next, whenever that may be, he will do well.

 

Why is he not doing well here at the moment? For me, it is because he cannot buy what we need: a top class striker - Villa; a top-class midfielder - Barry (for the sake of argument); and a top-class winger (Quaresma - just for a laugh). Why can't he do that?

 

Again, for me, it is because there is no money. Now long term, this may be the making of the club (fucking woefully optimistic here, I know) and we may get Kelly, Spearing, Eccleston, Amoo and other top prospects coming in and shining. But short term, it is going to be a struggle. If we had the money from ALonso, say, plus the 20M reports say Benitwz was due to get, we may have filled in one or two of the holes this season... but we don't - and it is due to the owners. So I disagree strongly with what you've said, I'm afraid.

 

For me, this is down to the owners. It all stems from them. I'm sure we could sit down and go through every single transfer Benitez has made and justify it. Babel - Nunez - Kronkamp et al. They may not work out - so many don't - but you can justify why it has been made.

 

People jump on bandwagons, jerk knees, do all sorts of stupid things. Not me... I'm different:whistle:

 

Unsurprisingly i agree.

 

If dumb and dumber ever read TLW i can guarantee they will be pissing their pants at all the infighting and disunity between our fans.

 

They fuck Rafa , then we kick Rafa when he's down .

[Anny Road]

Shut up you scottish cunt

 

Quite. Brilliant debating. You must be a big hit at parties.

[ottawa_lfc]

Anyone who believes that Rafa hasn't had enough money to build a decent squad by now, is fucking deluded.

 

We've had the players and the time to have a squad where the second XI should be able to win games against mid-table sides.

 

But, Rafa has not put together a decent squad.

 

I don't agree.

 

Every other team has moved forward too. Rafa has made mistakes, bought badly, and fucked up. Of course he has. Every other manager has too. But he has also been brilliant at times, bought wisely and won us games with decisions.

 

Whether he's the messiah or a naughty boy, we're stuck with him at the moment - and all the booing, crying and insults will not change that.

[Red Nick]

If you could get rid of the Owners

 

Then a new manager would quite like to work with

 

Pepe

Johnson

Agger

Carra?

Gerrard

Aquilani

Torres

Benayoun

 

with Mascher defo going thats a very good starting point for a Hiddink or Mourinho

 

However we have to get rid of the owners first

[Dan Vito Corleone]

 

If dumb and dumber ever read TLW i can guarantee they will be pissing their pants at all the infighting and disunity between our fans .

 

Absolutely correct.

 

I can't stand squarely behind the manager any more, neither can a lot of people, but some of the things being said are bang out of order.

[elvis]

Anyone who believes that Rafa hasn't had enough money to build a decent squad by now, is fucking deluded.

 

We've had the players and the time to have a squad where the second XI should be able to win games against mid-table sides.

 

But, Rafa has not put together a decent squad.

 

Well how the fuck did we finish 2nd , 4 points off top with a points tally that would normally win the league ?

 

Dickhead.

[ottawa_lfc]

It is decent, it will not win us the league though. We'll finish in the top four, it won't be a surprise.

 

I'd agree with that. It is a decent squad. The rest is impossible to quantify. Could he have, would he have, should he have...? We'll never know. But he's in charge of the team I love, so I'll support him as long as I think he is doing his best and is not out to fuck us over.

 

I genuinely think he can pull this round - maybe not this season - but soon. This is totally different from Houllier. I stopped believing in Houllier. I never booed him - but I lost respect for him. Rafa, it's different. And we have given him control of the club, so we're in it with him now for the long haul. So we'd btter hope he is the right man for the job.

[elvis]

Quite. Brilliant debating. You must be a big hit at parties.

 

Chill out whiskey chops , just yankin your chain.

[DJLJ]

yeah and what point is it considered free fall? I'm very afraid of this happening for a number of reasons but the fact that those two owners will have a say in it scares the shit out of me.

 

I still don't see anyone doing a better job but if players don't want to play for him there's not much that can be done.

 

Worst run of defeats in 22 years. Losing 6 in 7. It does not get much worse than this. Not sure how much worse it needs to be to be considered free fall?

[Monster Masch]

Rafa has been here for six years and his squad is still not good enough to win the league, simple.

 

And anyone who thinks he has not had money to spend are completely deluded to be honest.

 

I said last Sunday that the win over united only papered the cracks.

 

Them cracks are huge. The best we can hope for is fourth.

 

It is October and we are 11/1 to win the league and favoruites for the Europa league. That tells you something anyway..

 

When a manager starts to show serious backwards steps you have to get rid.

 

Taking of Yossi before Kuyt and Voronin was mental.

[Guest ShoePiss]

Worst run of defeats in 22 years. Losing 6 in 7. It does not get much worse than this. Not sure how much worse it needs to be to be considered free fall?

 

It's too short a space of time in my opinion.

[DJLJ]

Rafa has been here for six years and his squad is still not good enough to win the league, simple.

 

And anyone who thinks he has not had money to spend are completely deluded to be honest.

 

I said last Sunday that the win over united only papered the cracks.

 

Them cracks are huge. The best we can hope for is fourth.

 

It is October and we are 11/1 to win the league and favoruites for the Europa league. That tells you something anyway..

 

When a manager starts to show serious backwards steps you have to get rid.

 

Taking of Yossi before Kuyt and Voronin was mental.

 

I disagree. Our first 11 and our squad is good enough to win the league, however I don't believe we will when Benitez is in charge.

[ottawa_lfc]

Right, I'm off for a few pints.... hope the week ahead is better

[Brownie]

he shouldnt be sacked for not getting out of the group stages in a competition he has done so well for this club in. it's stupid and the sort of entitlement that has sunk many clubs, there really is no need to panic whatever happens because I know and you know that we'll play fucking boss football when everyone is back and firing (it might be too late)

 

you may remember I suggested it would get worse before it gets better because I can see what he has to work with

 

Personally that post reads to me as if you're beggining to accept mediocrity. I may be wrong there, but that's just how it reads to me.

[elvis]

Rafa has been here for six years and his squad is still not good enough to win the league, simple.

 

And anyone who thinks he has not had money to spend are completely deluded to be honest.

 

I said last Sunday that the win over united only papered the cracks.

 

Them cracks are huge. The best we can hope for is fourth.

 

It is October and we are 11/1 to win the league and favoruites for the Europa league. That tells you something anyway..

 

When a manager starts to show serious backwards steps you have to get rid.

 

Taking of Yossi before Kuyt and Voronin was mental.

 

 

Maybe he took off yossi and torres because he doesnt fancy the europa league ?