No ifs, no buts, no provisos - who do you REALLY rate?

[ScottyT]

If anything Villa play in a similar way to us and are better without the ball thanks to an organised system and work ethic. So it's unlikely many teams will out pass them.

 

The main difference is MON has built a better counter attacking unit...with less time and money.

[drewy]

If Villa play 'route one' I'd love to know we play, if it has a name. That's ignoring the fact that we bought Crouch for the exact same reason.

 

You'd think Benitez was some ultimate 'total football' guru, when in fact we play some of the worst football in the league.

 

Babel is a good example of his mistrust of 'attacking' players, unlike the almost identical Young who is flourishing under a more personable and less restrictive manager.

 

The only way forward for Babel is a prolonged run up front, unrestricted and given license to do what he thinks he does best.

 

Benitez giving him a restricted role isn't working, big him up, tell him you believe in him and let him go.

 

It won't happen though.

[robslappa]

Pepe, Agger, Sami, Skrtel, Carra, Masch, Xabi, Gerrard, Torres. They are all Liverpool class even if a few haven't showed it this season in Agger, Masch and Torres.

 

Same as John except Mascherano.

[hamstrung]

If anything Villa play in a similar way to us and are better without the ball thanks to an organised system and work ethic. So it's unlikely many teams will out pass them.

 

The main difference is MON has built a better counter attacking unit...with less time and money.

 

Do you think they'll finish above us anytime soon?

 

I'll take that bet if you like.

[AL66GOLF]

Agger

Hyypia

Gerrard

Torres

Riera

Alonso

Mascherano

Carragher

Reina

Skrtel

 

Insua - shows great potential if Rafa puts him back in the side

[ScottyT]

Do you think they'll finish above us anytime soon?

 

I'll take that bet if you like.

 

Take Gerrard out of our team and it's a strong possibilty, which doesn't say much for 5 seasons of 'building'.

[zigackly]

Yep, but at the time I, along with others, thought that it was a massive fee for a lad who'd shone bits of promise for Watford. As opposed to a full international playing for Ajax.

 

I was wrong.

 

Won't disagree with that, just think it's daft trying to argue that the difference between them is down to O'Neil when it's clear there is a big gulf in quality.

[ScottyT]

There's only a gulf now because of O'Neil. Babel was a major prospect in Holland and on his way to becoming a full international while Young was still at Watford.

[zigackly]

There's only a gulf now because of O'Neil. Babel was a major prospect in Holland and on his way to becoming a full international while Young was still at Watford.

 

Don't be silly, if you swapped them round at that point Young would still be better now.

[hamstrung]

Take Gerrard out of our team and it's a strong possibilty, which doesn't say much for 5 seasons of 'building'.

 

I am not sure they would, even with your massive caveat (what team wouldn't be drastically impacted by the loss of such a great player?). There will be a significant gap between us come the end of the season.

 

Which is not to say, O'Neill hasn't done a good job.

[ScottyT]

Not at all. If anything Babel was the more established prospect and destined for a big move, with interest from Wenger before we priced him out of the market. Ortherwise I'm sure Benitez would have opted for Young at a similar price.

 

O'Neil has worked wonders with Young and turned him into a better player than Babel, but to say there was a gulf in class before that is just, well...silly.

[George Costanza]

Pepe. Agger, Sami, Carra, Srktel, Arbeloa, Masch, Xabi, Gerrard & Torres.

 

Only Arbeloa makes it from any one of the wide areas. He's had a good season IMO and as far as i'm concerned right back is not a position where we'd need to strengthen. Whether Arbeloa stays this summer could be in doubt though.

[RedinSweden]

One for every position in the first team as an absolute minimum. Is this a trick question? In my view we're severely lacking in quality on both flanks (both front and back) and at centre forward.

 

Torres. You aren't suggesting that we regularly play 2 up front are you?

[zigackly]

Wenger is not exactly a great yardstick, he's taking that team backwards every season at the moment.

 

Ajax and Holland have a MUCH better record of developing youngsters than Watford and England.

 

Young just happens to be a better player than Babel and I don't think for a minute he wouldn't have shone for us.

[ScottyT]

I am not sure they would, even with your massive caveat (what team wouldn't be drastically impacted by the loss of such a great player?). There will be a significant gap between us come the end of the season.

 

Which is not to say, O'Neill hasn't done a good job.

 

Not the point really. Gerrard was already here and didn't cost us a bean, yet after 5 seasons and plenty of money spent, we still rely on him for any sort of inspiration and without him we'd be struggling to get fourth.

 

Villa don't have that 'special player', nor the same amount of money, and yet they're competing with the elite right into the business end of the season.

[ScottyT]

Wenger is not exactly a great yardstick, he's taking that team backwards every season at the moment.

 

Ajax and Holland have a MUCH better record of developing youngsters than Watford and England.

 

Young just happens to be a better player than Babel and I don't think for a minute he wouldn't have shone for us.

 

So just poor judgment from Benitez then?

[hamstrung]

Not the point really. Gerrard was already here and didn't cost us a bean, yet after 5 seasons and plenty of money spent, we still rely on him for any sort of inspiration and without him we'd be struggling to get fourth.

 

Villa don't have that special 'player', nor the same amount of money, and yet they're competing with the elite right into the business end of the season.

 

We'll see how it all ends. That, after all, is the point.

[zigackly]

So just poor judgment from Benitez then?

 

Did we have eight million in January 2007?

[hamstrung]

Did we have eight million in January 2007?

 

Closer to £10M I think.

[ScottyT]

The only way forward for Babel is a prolonged run up front, unrestricted and given license to do what he thinks he does best.

 

Benitez giving him a restricted role isn't working, big him up, tell him you believe in him and let him go.

 

It won't happen though.

 

All true, mainly because we work to a rigid pre determined gameplan. There is just no place for 'off the cuff' individuality.

[moxter]

Great thread from all concerned, great idea from Paul. The results are fascinating.

 

First thing that strikes me is the massive discrepancies between the ones who are 'in' and the ones who are 'out': there's NOBODY betwwen 30% and 70%. In other words, there's nobody who the fans aren't sure about, although obviously there are some players who arounse diffences of opinion.

 

One important point is that different people will interpret the question in different ways - despite Paul's clear instructions. I'll admit I interpreted the question rather liberally myself, but more of my own opinions later. Of course, people are addressing the same question to all players, and it's the RELATIVE values that are of interest here, not the absolute values.

 

It strikes me that this is very much a snapshot of what people are thinking "now" by the way that Lucas has almost no votes at all; a year ago, I'm sure he would have had a few more, as he was definitely still in the "promising" category. To that end, the fact that Hyypia is ahead of Skrtel and Agger is fascinating. I get the real sense that there isn't much of a sense of anxiety when Sami pulls on the shirt, whereas if you asked most fans 5 years ago "will Hyypia be first XI class in 5 years time" they would have probably imagined him in an old people's home and mobility chair by now. He's truly becoming our Maldini.

 

Usually these polls have one or two people "spoiling" it by voting for everyone, or nobody; it tickled me that even if there was a bit of spoling going on, even those spoilers couldn't bring themselves to vote for Dossena!!!

 

Ryan Babel was one of the hottest prospects in world football a couple of years ago - now it seems Liverpool fans just want rid. It's been a sorry story for him the last few months. Personally I think he's been completely wasted out on the wing - Rafa said "he's ben bought as a winger" on the very day we signed him, and I think that was a mistake then and it's still a mistake now. Either way, we've turned off him in a big way.

 

Interesting is that Arbeloa (29%) is slightly more popular than Aurelio (25%) - enough to be statistically significant (sorry). Similarly, Skrtel is more popular than Agger.

 

OK, to the crux of it, and I apologise in advance if this is what brings this thread down. Maybe I should have kept it for another thread. As I said earlier, I did interpret the instructions quite generously, but I had these names:

 

Reina

Skrtel

Agger

Hyypia

Carragher

Insua

Aurelio

Riera

Benayoun

Gerrard

Mascherano

Alonso

Torres

 

and

 

Dirk Kuyt.

 

Before I get to Kuyt, a quick word about two players: Arbeloa, who I used to be a fan of, I think has gone off the boil. His attacking play is uninventive, his defending is reasonable without being classy, he has a horrible tendancy to cut inside rathe than cross, he's neither quick nor strong and although he's far from awful, he doesn't make my cut, although it was a tough decision. Tough decision as well for Yossi, who on his day is brilliantly creative and can take defences apart. His consistency was the main issue and I think that's improved enough to justofy his place for me.

 

OK, OK, Dirk. I had to think long and hard about it, and I'll admit that the thought of this thread being used as another Dirk-bashing thread was a bit too much to bear, so there was a little bit of stubbornness and "yay Dirk" about my vote. But not entirely.

 

Every single game Dirk plays, I wonder to myself what he's doing out on the wing. It's been a bit of a Liverpool thing of recent years, started by Houllier with Diouf, to shove centre forwards out on the wing, for apparently arbitrary reasons. Cisse, Kuyt and most recently Babel have been thrown out into what must seem like a wilderness for them.

 

Quite simply, Kuyt doesn't have either the pace or the crossing ability to play on the wing. Watching him trying to take a defender on for pace is like watching a car crash. With a clear view of the facial expressions of the passengers. It's truly horrific, you want to look away. And yet Rafa persists.

 

He didn't help himself early on with some nasty misses in front of goal, but he's scored plenty from close range as well, and barely gets near the goal these days as he's more often than not harrying defenders near the corner flag, or getting involved in midfield because the midfielders are losing out. I'd argue that despite his misses, he's still a decent goal poacher.

 

Some might disagree, and this season it's not been 100%, but I think his touch is excellent (I can feel others shaking their heads here). Time and time again a long ball - perhaps from Xabi - has been played in his direction, and he's controlled it perfectly. Turning and beating players isn't necessarily his greatest strength, but instead he does what he's best at: holding the ball up so others can support him. There are few better players than Dirk for holding the ball up.

 

Most of all, though, it's that legendary work rate which makes Kuyt so outstanding. I prefer to phrase it slightly differently: Dirk's a FIGHTER. If we're going to do well this season, we need to recall the spirit of games earlier in the season: Middlesbrough, Wigan, and most of all Manchester City. The magic of Istanbul, if you will. There are far too many players in the squad who would give up on a game if it wasn't going according to plan. Too many players who would, after some games on the bench, get fed up and blab to the papers or court other clubs. Too many players who are nothing but mercenaries, or thugs, or prima donnas. Bellamy, Pennant, Alonso, Agger, Babel, Riise, Keane, Kewell, and to a lesser extent Crouch. For one reason or another, their attitude has let them down either off-pitch or more often on it. His ability to chase after hopeless balls and hopeless causes, and get stuck in above and beyond te call of duty, is legendary. When the going gets tough, it's not the aforementioned prima donnas, whiners, manic depressives, showboaters, talented geniuses who will get us out of trouble - it's the fighters. If we're 1-0 down at Old Trafford in a few weeks time with 20 minutes to go, look to Gerrard, Carragher, Torres...and Dirk. He's the very essence of You'll Never Walk Alone, and that in itself takes this club to a next level more than any other club. Is there another club in the world that would have won in 2005?

[ToxtethTerror]

Yep, but at the time I, along with others, thought that it was a massive fee for a lad who'd shone bits of promise for Watford. As opposed to a full international playing for Ajax.

 

I was wrong.

 

These gambles have to be taken sometimes, when Ronaldo moved to Man United nobody cared, everybody thought he was an 18 year old show pony - and he was - it's what happens AFTER they join that matters. Their development is a credit to their new manager.

[zigackly]

Ryan Babel was one of the hottest prospects in world football a couple of years ago - now it seems Liverpool fans just want rid. It's been a sorry story for him the last few months. Personally I think he's been completely wasted out on the wing - Rafa said "he's ben bought as a winger" on the very day we signed him, and I think that was a mistake then and it's still a mistake now. Either way, we've turned off him in a big way.

 

Just focussing on that point in isolation, but in the context of an earlier discussion ... Ashley Young was considered mainly to be a striker when Villa bought him, and was expected to be used as such.

[moxter]

True, that. He's found his own niche though, rather than being forced into it.

[1892-LFCWasBorn]

Voted for the usual suspects:

 

Agger

Hyypia

Gerrard

Torres

Alonso

Mascherano

Reina

Skrtel

Carragher

 

Okayers (better is required)

Aurelio

Arbeloa

 

Not decided (too early to judge):

Insua

N'Gog

Riera

 

Simply not good enough:

Lucas

Kuyt

Dossena

 

Not given a fair crack:

Babel

 

Was really stuck with Aurelio. I think he's our best full back at the club, but his injuries will always restrict him.

 

Think Babel is good enough, but hasn't still yet been given a fair run in the side. Scoring midfielders cost millions. He does this and should be played instead of Dirk in my humble opinion.