No ifs, no buts, no provisos - who do you REALLY rate?

[ScottyT]

Nasri was another we let slip. Bags of skill and creativity, and puts a shift in, but probably wouldn't fit into such a rigid, mechanical way of playing.

 

So our options are very limited.

[hamstrung]

Ashley Young and Valencia are the first two that spring to mind, but there are surely plenty more. Evra (who is as much an attacker as a defender) was an absolute bargain for The Mancs, for example.

 

Both of who we have been/were heavily linked with, so its not as if he doesn't want to get that type of player.

 

Young we didn't get because of cost/risk, I imagine. Valencia seems to be destined for Madrid or Manchester. Incidentally, when we were first linked with Valencia (we were the first "big" club to show an interest I think) there were comments such as "What the fuck does he want him for/shit at signing attacking players" etc.

 

Dig up the Ashley Young thread from the time, and you'll see similar comments.

[Stu Monty]

What has Nasri done this season? I've hardly noticed him.

[zigackly]

Very surprised that only about 30% rate Arbeloa and I think he is underrated & certainly missed during his recent injury break.

 

The way the question was asked is "who do you think is genuine LFC class ... and proves it nearly every time they pull on the shirt"? I do rate Arbeloa but I'm not saying he's genuine Liverpool class just yet, and I don't think he's as consistent as the ones I picked. In recent times we've had Babbel and Finnan in that berth. Arbeloa looks good, but he's got a way to go yet.

[sir roger]

The way the question was asked is "who do you think is genuine LFC class ... and proves it nearly every time they pull on the shirt"? I do rate Arbeloa but I'm not saying he's genuine Liverpool class just yet, and I don't think he's as consistent as the ones I picked. In recent times we've had Babbel and Finnan in that berth. Arbeloa looks good, but he's got a way to go yet.

 

Fair enough Z , I rate the guy & can't remember him having many games where he hasn't added anything to our team.

 

Having said that you are in the majority so I'll take an interest in observing him more closely over the next month or so.

[Paul]

In the same way Skrtel and Agger seem to be for us. Comparing their success to our failure is always going to be flawed. You get some right you get some wrong, Nani cost almost as much as Torres...it happens to all managers; it just happens less when you've got the cash to go big on the certainties like Ferdinand, Rooney or Berbatov.

 

I mentioned this the other day, but everyone only ever makes money comparisons with other managers to suit Rafa. Why not compare his record with those of Martin O'Neil (his whole career, not just his time at Villa), Steve Bruce at Wigan or even David Moyes? They've all had smaller budgets than our for a greater ratio of hits. Now obviously they haven't all been signing Liverpool quality players, but the first two at least have signed people who'd improve us.

 

Both of who we have been/were heavily linked with, so its not as if he doesn't want to get that type of player.

 

Young we didn't get because of cost/risk, I imagine. Valencia seems to be destined for Madrid or Manchester. Incidentally, when we were first linked with Valencia (we were the first "big" club to show an interest I think) there were comments such as "What the fuck does he want him for/shit at signing attacking players" etc.

 

Dig up the Ashley Young thread from the time, and you'll see similar comments.

 

Mate, I'm not sure how it's relevant who we were linked with but didn't sign. What we're talking about here is who Rafa did sign. You might as well say he rates Messi, Eto'o and Ronaldo so he's a good judge of an attacker. In my view he's only signed three attackers who were any good and he treated two of them abominably before flogging them (and for the record, I wasn't clamouring for any of their signatures before they came).

 

As for the comments of the fans about unknowns, they were just as applicable to Skrtel and Agger. Everyone said, "Who the fuck is he?" when we signed them too. We're making an assessment of players we've all seen playing for Liverpool week in, week out and far too many just aren't good enough in my view.

[Kevin D]

Right 3 people have now not voted Torres. Unbelievable.

[Paul]

It's interesting that there appears to be a consensus (allowing for fuck ups) about only four of our players.

[drewy]

Some of the voting is quite baffling, it's peoples opinions alright.

 

Reina

Torres

Agger

Hyypia

Skrtel

Alonso

Gerrard

Carra

The Chief

 

Insua will be I believe.

[Cardie]

I mentioned this the other day, but everyone only ever makes money comparisons with other managers to suit Rafa. Why not compare his record with those of Martin O'Neil (his whole career, not just his time at Villa), Steve Bruce at Wigan or even David Moyes? They've all had smaller budgets than our for a greater ratio of hits. Now obviously they haven't all been signing Liverpool quality players, but the first two at least have signed people who'd improve us.

 

Is the reason they are perceived as hits because expectations are lower and those players have found the perfect balance between pressure, expectation and ability?

[rebel23]

we should definitely go for Hamsik this summer, the perfect Rafa type player, a tall hard working attacking midfielder who scores goals and has quality

 

he'll cost a few quid though.

[Cardie]

we should definitely go for Hamsik this summer, the perfect Rafa type player, a tall hard working attacking midfielder who scores goals and has quality

 

he'll cost a few quid though.

 

It's alot of money for someone who's only going to play when Gerrard is injured.

[RobbieOR]

Very surprised that only about 30% rate Arbeloa and I think he is underrated & certainly missed during his recent injury break.

 

The 13 who dissed Sami had better buy Paul a present to thank him for making this poll anonymous.

 

You can still see who didn't vote for him, just look what people posted!

[Stu Monty]

I mentioned this the other day, but everyone only ever makes money comparisons with other managers to suit Rafa. Why not compare his record with those of Martin O'Neil (his whole career, not just his time at Villa), Steve Bruce at Wigan or even David Moyes? They've all had smaller budgets than our for a greater ratio of hits. Now obviously they haven't all been signing Liverpool quality players, but the first two at least have signed people who'd improve us.

 

 

It's not to suit Rafa at all though is it? It's because there are four clubs in our band so we judge them on those similar standards.

 

The they'd improve us claim is a tenuous one too. Lots of managers of medium to small clubs can get a player who plays brilliantly for them only for them to move to a bigger club and fail. Who was that gem that O'Neill bought that would have really improved us...the big black lad...Emile something? It's not as simple as that when you move to Liverpool, ask Collymore, Keane, Scales, Babb or any of the many, many players who have looked like they'd definitely improve us but buckled under pressure or just underperformed.

 

Also, the greater ratio of hits I'd doubt too. If you spend £8m on a player, he does a job but you then think you can improve on him 18 months down the line and get £11m for him then that doesn't mean he's been a failure. You seem to be judging that as a failure for Rafa, it isn't, it's part of a building process. The actual waste in his way of doing things has been pretty minimal, unless you count time as being wasted (which I don't).

 

I'd say a manager is probably going to get at least 20-25% of his signings wrong, that's just the nature of the beast. There doesn't seem to be any acceptance of this from a lot of the tranfer scrutiny.

[gap30]

Very surprised that only about 30% rate Arbeloa and I think he is underrated & certainly missed during his recent injury break.

 

Agreed, really miss him when hes not playing, MUST IMPROVE ON CROSSING!!

 

If i was the on the coaching staff i would make him practice crossing 24/7 till he gets it right, only thing missing from his game. Strong, solid, gets on with it gets my vote.

[Catch22]

I mentioned this the other day, but everyone only ever makes money comparisons with other managers to suit Rafa. Why not compare his record with those of Martin O'Neil (his whole career, not just his time at Villa), Steve Bruce at Wigan or even David Moyes? They've all had smaller budgets than our for a greater ratio of hits. Now obviously they haven't all been signing Liverpool quality players, but the first two at least have signed people who'd improve us.

 

 

The problem with any analysis involving MoN,Bruce or Moyes is the same as the Keane/James problem: They are operating at such a lower level of football.

 

For a start they all play route 1 stuff that cann't be played at the level we want to be in.

MoN has just signed Heskey for £3.5m & been applaued for it whereas Rafa would have been crucified.

 

For a similar reason there is not 1 player from those teams who could definetely make it at a top club.

Young is very quick & hits teams over the top. You need more about you at a top side.

 

They (the managers) are all as far as they can go.

 

Look how hilariously Hughes is out of his depth when he is attemting to tell a £30m player that tactics is what method you lead with your elbow

(Fabregas's put-down to him about "Did you actually ever play for Barca?" was withering)

 

Their records are all meaningless in a top-club analysis

 

And if you say that is unfair,

Well, Rafa,Fergie (edit CWC) & Mourinho all ran similarly sized clubs & won the

the Uefa Cup.

 

To be fair MoN has come close but Moyes & Bruce would just show their ignorance when in Europe

[redrosetints]

I'd have to agree with Paul and JG, though I'd add Reira and Aurelio. Arbeloa is a decent player. Surprised Reira is so low, I think he's looked class, jusr needs some more end product.

[zigackly]

It's not to suit Rafa at all though is it? It's because there are four clubs in our band so we judge them on those similar standards.

 

The they'd improve us claim is a tenuous one too. Lots of managers of medium to small clubs can get a player who plays brilliantly for them only for them to move to a bigger club and fail. Who was that gem that O'Neill bought that would have really improved us...the big black lad...Emile something? It's not as simple as that when you move to Liverpool, ask Collymore, Keane, Scales, Babb or any of the many, many players who have looked like they'd definitely improve us but buckled under pressure or just underperformed.

 

Also, the greater ratio of hits I'd doubt too. If you spend £8m on a player, he does a job but you then think you can improve on him 18 months down the line and get £11m for him then that doesn't mean he's been a failure. You seem to be judging that as a failure for Rafa, it isn't, it's part of a building process. The actual waste in his way of doing things has been pretty minimal, unless you count time as being wasted (which I don't).

 

I'd say a manager is probably going to get at least 20-25% of his signings wrong, that's just the nature of the beast. There doesn't seem to be any acceptance of this from a lot of the tranfer scrutiny.

 

Excellent post Monty.

[torres-9]

Agger pure class defending and going forward.

[ScottyT]

If Villa play 'route one' I'd love to know we play, if it has a name. That's ignoring the fact that we bought Crouch for the exact same reason.

 

You'd think Benitez was some ultimate 'total football' guru, when in fact we play some of the worst football in the league.

 

Babel is a good example of his mistrust of 'attacking' players, unlike the almost identical Young who is flourishing under a more personable and less restrictive manager.

[Catch22]

If Villa play 'route one' I'd love to know we play, if it has a name. That's ignoring the fact that we bought Crouch for the exact same reason.

 

You'd think Benitez was some ultimate 'total football' guru, when in fact we play some of the worst football in the league.

 

Babel is a good example of his mistrust of 'attacking' players, unlike the almost identical Young who is flourishing under a more warm and less restrictive manager.

 

MoN is more attacking than Rafa, agreed.

 

But he still aims for a physical,harrying route 1 game

Ours aims for a cautious possession-based control

 

Now MoN's style can be exciting but it will always fall short against the top sides who keep the ball & tire you out

[Stu Monty]

If Villa play 'route one' I'd love to know we play, if it has a name. That's ignoring the fact that we bought Crouch for the exact same reason.

 

You'd think Benitez was some ultimate 'total football' guru, when in fact we play some of the worst football in the league.

 

Babel is a good example of his mistrust of 'attacking' players, unlike the almost identical Young who is flourishing under a more personable and less restrictive manager.

 

Momo, meet John Carew.

 

John Carew, meet Momo.

[zigackly]

Young is a FAR better player than Babel.

[hamstrung]

Mate, I'm not sure how it's relevant who we were linked with but didn't sign. What we're talking about here is who Rafa did sign. You might as well say he rates Messi, Eto'o and Ronaldo so he's a good judge of an attacker. In my view he's only signed three attackers who were any good and he treated two of them abominably before flogging them (and for the record, I wasn't clamouring for any of their signatures before they came).

 

 

Its relevant when discussing his ability to spot a good attacking player. Particularly if the examples provided are players he wanted, but for perfectly valid reasons, couldn't get.

 

I wouldn't disagree that we haven't been as successful as we might have been in the forward positions. The simple conclusion to reach is he is no judge of attacking talent, but there's often more to it than that.

[Stu Monty]

Young is a FAR better player than Babel.

 

Yep, but at the time I, along with others, thought that it was a massive fee for a lad who'd shone bits of promise for Watford. As opposed to a full international playing for Ajax.

 

I was wrong.