Israel - A Rant

[SammyAftershave]

You can't blame Israel for those particular war crimes and massacres. They only gave the Philangists weapons, money, uniforms and orders and simply looked the other way. It wouldn't make sense to have blood on their own hands would it?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabra_and_Shatila_massacre

 

[Strontium]

I thought this was going to be a post about the settler who was murdered by a Palestinian. Silly me.

[Nelly-Szoboszlai]

12 hours ago, SammyAftershave said:

You can't blame Israel for those particular war crimes and massacres. They only gave the Philangists weapons, money, uniforms and orders and simply looked the other way. It wouldn't make sense to have blood on their own hands would it?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabra_and_Shatila_massacre

 

That documentary I linked to is quite good. 

Amazing that the Israeli "Defence" Forces constantly get away with their role in mass murder, be that on the land they've stolen or in other countries. Not only an apartheid state, but a rogue state acting with impunity.  

[Numero Veinticinco]

42 minutes ago, Strontium Dog said:

I thought this was going to be a post about the settler who was murdered by a Palestinian. Silly me.

What’s the purpose of this post? You seem to be accusing people of something, yet don’t want to actually say it or name people. I assume it’s some amalgam of partisanship and not caring about Israelis.

I thought your post was going to be a post on topic, commemorating the dead and acknowledging the state sanctioned slaughter of hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of refugee children and women. Only kidding, I didn’t expect that at all, because you’re incredibly partisan and biased yourself. Even when you’re implying that’s true of others. How many times have you casually posted about an illegal occupier shooting a Palestinian dead? 

Instead, it was what it normally is, which is a cheap, snarky post that’s dismissive of the plight of others, attempting to make using the deaths of others to score points in a game that’s not even being played.

What you could have done, even if you didn’t want to mention the thousands of dead, is actually post 1) the information about the settler murder and 2) your opinion on that information. Then it could have actually been discussed rather than continuing the bad feeling. 

[Jairzinho]

 You have phenomenal patience, NV.

[Strontium]

1 hour ago, Numero Veinticinco said:

What’s the purpose of this post? You seem to be accusing people of something, yet don’t want to actually say it or name people. I assume it’s some amalgam of partisanship and not caring about Israelis

I wouldn't dream of accusing anyone of anything. I prefer to let people make their own minds up.

Now let's get back to the story of how the murder of Arab Muslims by Arab Christians was all the fault of the Jews 

[ZonkoVille77]

There's that conflation thing again...

[skend04]

https://medium.com/@TonyGreenstein/nw-friends-of-israel-tommy-robinson-and-the-edl-are-holding-a-demonstration-against-d6cb71e3c013

Quite a motley crew at this gathering on Saturday. Will the NWFOI be practicing their Sieg Heils to fit in with the EDL crowd?

[Anubis]

Just had a look at the Wikipedia page for Master Yaxley-Lennon's new outfit, the Football Lad's Alliance.  It seems its all gone a bit People's Front of Judea.

 

Split[edit]

 

Logo of the Democratic Football Lads Alliance or the "true" FLA.^[5]

The organisation split over certain issues, with some senior activists setting up the Democratic Football Lads Alliance (DFLA or the "Democratic FLA" or "true FLA").^[2][9] It has adopted the slogan "Against All Extremism". The march organiser for the DFLA is Phillip Hickin.^[10]

[ZonkoVille77]

 

I'm sure SD will critizise this. Cos ye know, liberty and all that.

[Numero Veinticinco]

4 hours ago, Strontium Dog said:

Now let's get back to the story of how the murder of Arab Muslims by Arab Christians was all the fault of the Jews

This is exactly the type of deflection, suppression fallacy, and dismissiveness that I spoke about the other day. It makes you look like an apologist for the Israeli part played in mass murder, and I think that's how I musty treat you from now on; an apologist. I tried to give you the same benefit of doubt that you gave Corbyn, attributing views to ignorance rather than malice, but it's not as it happens too often; It's good old-fashioned partisan malice. 

Nobody mentioned that it was the fault of 'the Jews', that's disgraceful and dishonest. It's an obvious and transparent attempt to deflect from the role Israel played in the Sabra and Shitila Massacre, and a dirty, underhanded attempt to dissuade criticism of Israel's role in mass murder by shouting antisemitism, as if the only reason for acknowledging the role of Israel is purported Jewishness. 

[AngryOfTuebrook]

22 hours ago, Strontium Dog said:

I wouldn't dream of accusing anyone of anything. I prefer to let people make their own minds up.

Now let's get back to the story of how the murder of Arab Muslims by Arab Christians was all the fault of the Jews 

NV tried to reason with you and your only response was snark and innuendo.

This is why people lose patience and just treat you like a cunt.

[Strontium]

14 minutes ago, AngryofTuebrook said:

NV tried to reason with you and your only response was snark and innuendo.

This is why people lose patience and just treat you like a cunt.

NV didn't try to reason with me, he had a go at me for daring to mention the murder of an Israeli. Par for the course for this astonishing bad faith topic. I'm only surprised nobody has said he deserved to be stabbed to death.

[Strontium]

1 hour ago, Numero Veinticinco said:

 

Nobody mentioned that it was the fault of 'the Jews', that's disgraceful and dishonest. It's an obvious and transparent attempt to deflect from the role Israel played in the Sabra and Shitila Massacre, and a dirty, underhanded attempt to dissuade criticism of Israel's role in mass murder by shouting antisemitism, as if the only reason for acknowledging the role of Israel is purported Jewishness. 

When you have people who would rather talk about a massacre 36 years ago simply because Israel happens to bear indirect responsibility for it, ignoring the fact that similar bloodshed is being perpetrated right at this very moment in Yemen, Syria etc, then you have to start drawing obvious conclusions - people just aren't arsed unless it's something they can pin on Israel.

Once you've established that, then it's just a matter of establishing why. If you have an alternative explanation for why certain people are incensed by Israel in a way that they aren't by anyone else, let's hear it.

[Numero Veinticinco]

13 minutes ago, Strontium Dog said:

NV didn't try to reason with me, he had a go at me for daring to mention the murder of an Israeli.

Negged for being a liar. I asked you to post information about it rather than make snarky remarks. Negged for calling it a 'bad faith topic' and in the very next sentence using bad hypocrisy to imply that people here think it's okay to commit murder. 

7 minutes ago, Strontium Dog said:

When you have people who would rather talk about a massacre 36 years ago simply because Israel happens to bear indirect responsibility for it, ignoring the fact that similar bloodshed is being perpetrated right at this very moment in Yemen, Syria etc, then you have to start drawing obvious conclusions - people just aren't arsed unless it's something they can pin on Israel.

Once you've established that, then it's just a matter of establishing why. If you have an alternative explanation for why certain people are incensed by Israel in a way that they aren't by anyone else, let's hear it.

It was the anniversary, it's perfectly acceptable for two people to mention it before you jumped in with a dismissive, snarky post. Leaving aside yet another case of whataboutary from you, nobody is ignoring what's going on in Syria or Yemen. This is a thread about Israel, not about Syria or Yemen. Where are all your posts about Yemen? (That's another question for you to ignore). I reject the premise in your obtuse last point. Israel does get more attention, though; much to do with it being in violation of more international laws than anybody else. Your insinuation that because it gets talked about less is because of antisemitism rather than there being nobody here that sticks up for other murderous nations, like you do with Israel, is ridiculous. 

[Strontium]

11 minutes ago, Numero Veinticinco said:

Negged for being a liar. I asked you to post information about it rather than make snarky remarks. Negged for calling it a 'bad faith topic' and in the very next sentence using bad hypocrisy to imply that people here think it's okay to commit murder. 

It was the anniversary, it's perfectly acceptable for two people to mention it before you jumped in with a dismissive, snarky post. Leaving aside yet another case of whataboutary from you, nobody is ignoring what's going on in Syria or Yemen. This is a thread about Israel, not about Syria or Yemen. Where are all your posts about Yemen? (That's another question for you to ignore). I reject the premise in your obtuse last point. Israel does get more attention, though; much to do with it being in violation of more international laws than anybody else. Your insinuation that because it gets talked about less is because of antisemitism rather than there being nobody here that sticks up for other murderous nations, like you do with Israel, is ridiculous. 

I'm not lying, I just didn't believe for one second that you were interested in information about a settler murder. Why would you be? It doesn't fit the permitted agenda. And anyway, you must already be aware of it, so I didn't treat the request seriously.

There's no topic about what's happening in Yemen, and if there was a Syria thread, it's not been posted in for a while, which tells its own story.

I find it hard to believe that "violation of international laws" is what gets people het up. 

As long as people keep singling Israel out for things that its neighbours do, I reserve the right to be cynical about their motives, in the absence of any other plausible explanation.

[Nelly-Szoboszlai]

https://www.facebook.com/127824130594191/posts/1931263813583538/

[Numero Veinticinco]

1 minute ago, Strontium Dog said:

I'm not lying, I just didn't believe for one second that you were interested in information about a settler murder. Why would you be? It doesn't fit the permitted agenda. And anyway, you must already be aware of it, so I didn't treat the request seriously.

There's no topic about what's happening in Yemen, and if there was a Syria thread, it's not been posted in for a while, which tells its own story.

I find it hard to believe that "violation of international laws" is what gets people het up. 

As long as people keep singling Israel out for things that its neighbours do, I reserve the right to be cynical about their motives, in the absence of any other plausible explanation.

It obviously is a lie, and I'll explain why in the next paragraph. You lie in a number of different ways, but often by omission and to yourself. But look, this is the last post I'm going to make to you about you; if the response isn't a post that furthers some sort of civil discussion then I'm out. It's a waste of my time, and it deflects from the topic of the thread. 

You snarked into the thread, talking about a settler being murdered by a Palestinian and implying that people aren't talking about it because they're racists - a ludicrous, baseless assertion, and one that shows your 'don't attribute things to malice that can be explained by ignorance' to be another dishonest claim - so I requested that if you want people to talk about it, you could act like a civil person rather than the deeply uncivil person that you were acting like, and post the information so it can actually be discussed. I have no idea about the settler that died, if they were murdered, who by, the circumstances around it, or even if it happened at all (your claims recently have been of very dubious authenticity and lacking in credibility or veracity, so I'd sooner see it for myself rather than trust a word that comes out of your mouth (fingers; sorry @A Red), but if what you say happened did happen, I would absolutely condemn it just as I have done in the past.

As I asked and you ignored earlier, where are your posts about Israeli settlers killing Palestinians? Do you not post them because you're a racist, or does that only apply to those you disagree with? If there's no thread about Yemen, you are free to start one if you want to discuss it, but again I'd suggest it'll be short because nobody is going to defend the state committing crimes against civilians. We can all agree and call it a day, just as it was when it was mentioned the other day; condemned, agreed, done. You're free to post about it, though. Though, something has become quite apparent; you do not want to be a productive member who contributes by adding content. For quite a while now all you've actually done is make little snarky comments and implied people are racists. You, and Rico too, seem to be incredibly cowardly when it comes to actually posting a full opinion or making actual claims because you can't row them back. It's all deflections, snark, insinuations.

You don't believe that it's violation of international law? That's a judgement call on your part, but it isn't backed up by the content of this thread and others in which they discuss these things. You are trying to deflect from the horrendous crimes and human rights violations by Israel by crying antisemitism; the only problem you've got, despite your disgusting, dishonest claim to the contrary, nobody even mentioned Jews, nobody said or did anything remotely antisemitic, and you have absolutely no leg to stand on other than the bizarre fantasy concocted in your mind. Many, many, many Jews oppose it in just the same way I do. It has nothing to do with Jewishness, despite your foul, deceitful, vicious lies to the contrary, and tu quoque wataboutary, and everything to do with mass murder, extra judicial killing, and apartheid. You will never stop me criticising these things, not matter what you softly imply. 

[Nelly-Szoboszlai]

Why are people writing lengthy posts in response to a transparent silencing tactic? 

Ignore it. It's pathetic. 

[moof]

2 minutes ago, Nelly-Torres said:

Why are people writing lengthy posts in response to a transparent silencing tactic? 

Ignore it. It's pathetic. 

I disagree. It’s very satisfying to see him taken apart so comprehensively 

[Numero Veinticinco]

3 minutes ago, Nelly-Torres said:

Why are people writing lengthy posts in response to a transparent silencing tactic? 

To show others you don’t need to be silenced by it, so that when it happens to them in person they’ll know how to combat it, and to show that you can refute claims in a civil way. 

[Bjornebye]

On 9/17/2018 at 12:31 PM, Strontium Dog said:

I wouldn't dream of accusing anyone of anything. I prefer to let people make their own minds up.

Now let's get back to the story of how the murder of Arab Muslims by Arab Christians was all the fault of the Jews 

[Strontium]

1 hour ago, Numero Veinticinco said:

It obviously is a lie, and I'll explain why in the next paragraph. You lie in a number of different ways, but often by omission and to yourself. But look, this is the last post I'm going to make to you about you; if the response isn't a post that furthers some sort of civil discussion then I'm out. It's a waste of my time, and it deflects from the topic of the thread. 

You snarked into the thread, talking about a settler being murdered by a Palestinian and implying that people aren't talking about it because they're racists - a ludicrous, baseless assertion, and one that shows your 'don't attribute things to malice that can be explained by ignorance' to be another dishonest claim - so I requested that if you want people to talk about it, you could act like a civil person rather than the deeply uncivil person that you were acting like, and post the information so it can actually be discussed. I have no idea about the settler that died, if they were murdered, who by, the circumstances around it, or even if it happened at all (your claims recently have been of very dubious authenticity and lacking in credibility or veracity, so I'd sooner see it for myself rather than trust a word that comes out of your mouth (fingers; sorry @A Red), but if what you say happened did happen, I would absolutely condemn it just as I have done in the past.

As I asked and you ignored earlier, where are your posts about Israeli settlers killing Palestinians? Do you not post them because you're a racist, or does that only apply to those you disagree with? If there's no thread about Yemen, you are free to start one if you want to discuss it, but again I'd suggest it'll be short because nobody is going to defend the state committing crimes against civilians. We can all agree and call it a day, just as it was when it was mentioned the other day; condemned, agreed, done. You're free to post about it, though. Though, something has become quite apparent; you do not want to be a productive member who contributes by adding content. For quite a while now all you've actually done is make little snarky comments and implied people are racists. You, and Rico too, seem to be incredibly cowardly when it comes to actually posting a full opinion or making actual claims because you can't row them back. It's all deflections, snark, insinuations.

You don't believe that it's violation of international law? That's a judgement call on your part, but it isn't backed up by the content of this thread and others in which they discuss these things. You are trying to deflect from the horrendous crimes and human rights violations by Israel by crying antisemitism; the only problem you've got, despite your disgusting, dishonest claim to the contrary, nobody even mentioned Jews, nobody said or did anything remotely antisemitic, and you have absolutely no leg to stand on other than the bizarre fantasy concocted in your mind. Many, many, many Jews oppose it in just the same way I do. It has nothing to do with Jewishness, despite your foul, deceitful, vicious lies to the contrary, and tu quoque wataboutary, and everything to do with mass murder, extra judicial killing, and apartheid. You will never stop me criticising these things, not matter what you softly imply. 

I'd love nothing more than a civil discussion. Do you think negging me every time I dare to disagree with you is conducive to civil discourse? Because it looks like an attempt to bully me into silence. The idea that the incivility is something that originates with me is risible to me. I am petrified to post here, and I'd bet that nobody else feels that way.

However, let's assume you are serious, and proceed in that manner. Yes, I made a snarky comment. There are three main reasons I did this. Firstly, I didn't have time for anything more than a pithy one liner. Secondly, because I think this entire topic is set up to be an echo chamber, where anyone who doesn't concur with the central pillar - that the only liberal democracy in the Middle East is a uniquely evil regime in the region - is taking a big risk by even contributing.

But thirdly, and most pertinently, if I post about an Israel settler being murdered by a Palestinian, then it opens me up to the lie that I care more about Israeli lives than I do about the lives of others. It's an accusation you've made of me before, so you can hardly be surprised if I am wary.

You can't create a situation where I dread even looking at a topic because it causes me to physically shake like a leaf and then complain that my contribution is limited to a bit of hit-and-run sarcasm. Sorry, but no. This is a hostile environment, and I didn't create that.

To answer your other points: yes, Israel violates international law, never denied it. No, I'm not trying to deflect from anything, how could I when everyone is so set in their opinions, that nothing I post would make the blindest difference.

So far as people not being racists is concerned, I'd have a bit more faith in that notion if we could get some kind of general acceptance of the idea that Jews in Israel actually have some kind of right to be there, instead of having them painted as white European colonisers. Other than me and Rico, not one person pulled Angry up when he described Jewish refugees to Palestine as conquerors. It reduced me to tears, and nobody gave a shit.

Whether people like it or not, the principle underpinning Jewish claims to the land of Israel is the same principle that underpins Arab claims to their land.

 

 

[Em City]

1 hour ago, Strontium Dog said:

 

I find it hard to believe that "violation of international laws" is what gets people het up. 

Well, as long you don't "believe" it, I'm sure that's everybody else's opinion on the matter invalidated.

Please state in plain terms the reason you think "people get so "het up" on the issue?

[Nelly-Szoboszlai]

They've pissed the Russians off now (even if their ire looks somewhat misplaced).

Is it too early to hope for Netanyahu + Novichok?