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Israel - A Rant

Rashid

By Rashid,
in GF - General Forum

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ZonkoVille77 Grand Master

ZonkoVille77

Posted
Posted

Odd really, because most of it was qualified agreement with what you wrote. Although I get the feeling the Arabs will have to succeed in their long-term goal of driving the Jews into the sea before I get any agreement that perhaps they might have contributed to the situation there.

Drive the Jews into the sea or the Zionists into the sea? When you generalise are you including ALL Jews and ALL Arabs?

 

I know you wouldn't like to make inaccurate sweeping statements, having such a righteous and moral outlook...

 

As far as I know there are plenty of Jews in Palestine who are disgusted with the behaviour of the murdering 'government' and their genocidal army. Maybe the Arabs don't want to drive those Jews into the sea?

 

Or maybe you're just as right wing as Netanyahu and Lukid?

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Section_31
Section_31

You wait for one picture of a bus stop to come along and then three come along at the same time.

Biscao
Biscao

Hopefully there won’t be much left of Gaza in a few weeks time.

Numero Veinticinco
Numero Veinticinco

It's David vs Goliath's bigger, stronger, more violent cousin. David has sticks, stones, explosive strapped to themselves, and homemade rockets - many of which would be classified as large fireworks -

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AngryOfTuebrook Grand Master

AngryOfTuebrook

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Scare quotes.

 

I see where the confusion is. Zionism involves the establishment of a state within the borders of historic Israel. It does not mean taking the entirety of historic Israel for a state.

 

 

 

You seem to have the idea that there was a Palestinian nation who were deposed by the mean old Jews. Palestine was already occupied territory when Zionists started to immigrate there. It's been occupied by various powers for centuries. It was part of the Ottoman Empire. Zionists were going there with the aim of liberating the region from Turkish rule. In what sense is that "conquest"?

Right, you'll have to help me out on your definition of "historic Israel" because I've looked around and I can't find anything which says "Zionists want to establish a Jewish homeland in this bit of land, but not that bit".

 

Nothing I've posted implies that I believe there was an independent Palestinian State before the Nakba.  The normal process at the dissolution of empires is that sovereignty passes to the people who already live there; in the case of Palestine under the Ottomans, this was an overwhelmingly Arab majority.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but I've always thought that the Zionist movement was not in any way concerned with liberating Palestinian Arabs: it was all about establishing a Jewish homeland, i.e. replacing first Ottoman rule, then the British Mandate with another non-Arab regime.  

For example

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1929_Palestine_riots#Background

Several months earlier Zionist leader Menachem Ussishkin gave a speech demanding "a Jewish state without compromises and without concessions, from Dan to Be'er Sheva, from the great sea to the desert, including Transjordan." He concluded, "Let us swear that the Jewish people will not rest and will not remain silent until its national home is built on our Mt Moriah," a reference to the Temple Mount.

 

I'm not for a moment suggesting that the Jewish settlers through the 20th Century were motivated by that sort of colonial impulse; without checking any facts and figures, I would say that almost all of them were motivated by a more-than-understandable desire to find a place of safety away from European pogroms and oppression.  But it does seem that the leaders of the Zionist movement were more concerned with taking power in someone else's land; and it's an attitude that continues today in the Settler movement.

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AngryOfTuebrook Grand Master

AngryOfTuebrook

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Odd really, because most of it was qualified agreement with what you wrote. Although I get the feeling the Arabs will have to succeed in their long-term goal of driving the Jews into the sea before I get any agreement that perhaps they might have contributed to the situation there.

"The Arabs have a long-term goal of driving the Jews into the sea".

 

Fucksake.

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AngryOfTuebrook Grand Master

AngryOfTuebrook

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I'm not under any illusions about the situation in the Palestinian territories. Of course, nor am I under any illusions about what life is like elsewhere in the Middle East. The entire region is one big shithole. I don't believe the Yemenis or Syrians are any better off than the average Palestinian. And I'd choose Israeli occupation over Islamic State occupation any day of the week. So, perspective.

 

I'm well aware that a significant proportion of Israelis hold unreconstructed views of their neighbours. They wouldn't keep electing Netanyahu if they didn't. Likewise, your average Arab similarly despises Israelis, which is why they've tried to destroy Israel on numerous occasions.

 

I'm not quite so blase about the security of Israel. I couldn't tell an Israeli who has rockets landing in her garden that she's perfectly safe. Whether Israel's "existence" is under threat is not really the issue. The safety of its inhabitants is.

You seem, if not blase, then at least ambivalent about the security of Palestine (and Palestinians).

 

Here's a BBC documentary from a few years ago, showing the human cost of both sides of the struggle.  While the costs are terrible on both sides of the conflict, the reality of the unequal impacts of asymmetric warfare on non-combatants is undeniable.

 

https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2y182g

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Strontium Grand Master

Strontium

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Drive the Jews into the sea or the Zionists into the sea? When you generalise are you including ALL Jews and ALL Arabs?

 

I know you wouldn't like to make inaccurate sweeping statements, having such a righteous and moral outlook...

 

As far as I know there are plenty of Jews in Palestine who are disgusted with the behaviour of the murdering 'government' and their genocidal army. Maybe the Arabs don't want to drive those Jews into the sea?

 

Or maybe you're just as right wing as Netanyahu and Lukid?

Maybe you should read a history book.

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Lee909 Grand Master

Lee909

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How far do we keep going back to decide who's land it is. Weren't the Phoenician's there before. Didn't the Israeli's supposedly slaughter the Canaanites to take the land,because they decided God gave it to them?

 

Im no expert on the region but the land was inhabited long before Judaism became a major religion.

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cloggypop Grand Master

cloggypop

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Genuinely psychotic from the official Twitter account of Netanyahu :

 

@IsraeliPM: The weak crumble, are slaughtered and are erased from history while the strong, for good or for ill, survive. The strong are respected, and alliances are made with the strong, and in the end peace is made with the strong.

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Section_31 Grand Master

Section_31

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Genuinely psychotic from the official Twitter account of Netanyahu :

 

@IsraeliPM: The weak crumble, are slaughtered and are erased from history while the strong, for good or for ill, survive. The strong are respected, and alliances are made with the strong, and in the end peace is made with the strong.

I always find it's easier to stay strong when America gives you loads of f16s.
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Nelly-Szoboszlai Grand Master

Nelly-Szoboszlai

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I actually feel a little bit sorry for people like him.

 

There's an argument that they've been subjected to a form of child abuse or abuse during their formative years. There's evidence to suggest genetic passing on of grief and trauma, the concept of intergenerational trauma.

 

However, there's undoubtedly some Jewish people who've grown up without experiencing the horrors of the holocaust first hand, but who have had their psychology influenced by family generations who did witness it and have created a false fear in younger Jewish folk that there are still vast swathes of people out there who want to wipe out the Jewish people.

 

This creates a largely unfounded state of fear and paranoia which can manifest itself in many ways be that general misplaced fear, racism, an exaggerated assessment of the threat that neighbouring Arab/Islamic countries represent to Israel or a willingness to defend apartheid and war crimes and pass them off as necessary acts of defence.

 

You only have to look at the ridiculous rhetoric of the Jewish Chronicle etc when claiming that there would be an "existential threat" to Jewish people if a bloke who has an allotment and makes his own jams became UK PM.

 

The saddest manifestation I've seen of it is in Yoav Shamir's documenary, Defamation. It's a recently filmed documentary. Part of it followed a group of Israeli Jewish school pupils, teenagers, as they visited historical sites in Europe that were related to the Holocaust. They had an armed security guard with them, wherever they went. In between visiting these sites, it showed footage of these teens just sitting in their hotel rooms and one girl just suddenly bursting into tears as they/she were/was afraid that there were people outside who wanted to kill them just because they were Jewish.

 

It was sad to watch. Young people who should be living a relatively carefree life having a false sense of fear and dread pumped into them to the extant that it made them behave irrationally.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if that's what's happened to Mr. Kogan too. But, for him, it's manifested itself in bigotry.

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Anubis Grand Master

Anubis

Posted
Posted

Google "al-Wajala village" for the latest demonstration of fine, upstanding democracy.

 

Bulldozing people's homes and heavily handed assaults dealt out to elderly people just trying to prevent their homes from being flattened.

 

Scum.

Those elderly people you refer to were the Hammas Pensioner Brigade armed with Tokarev T-710 walking sticks, which they waved threateningly in the direction of the bulldozers.

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