Is Trent Really Worth It?

[Barrington Womble]

8 minutes ago, The Guest said:

You’re imagining stuff that’s not happening.  I sit there and literally count the amount of times he goes to the byline every game because it’s so few if any as we struggled to create anything and Mo just runs into 3 players.  I wouldn’t expect him or want him to do it in the midfield role.  It’s like a syndrome people have that they can’t seem to see it and then they just make things up because they haven’t spotted it themselves and just assume he’s doing it.  The odd time he does do it we actually create chances and goals as I mentioned before but he’s not doing it more than once or twice a game and sometimes not for weeks on end.

 

In terms of winning the big two I’m talking about going forward.  To have an integral player who has a Sunday league level flaw to his game means you aren’t going to beat the big team in latter stages of cups or be consistent enough in the league.  We got away with it playing against Spurs in a final and in the league in a season where the pressure was off after winning 18 games on the run or whatever it was but we were a different side then anyway that is near enough impossible to recreate on the budget we are.

 

 

Honestly, I don't want to discuss this with you as it's clear you've an issue and an agenda with Trent. We got away with it because we won 18 in a row. Fuck me.

 

As I said before he must have been slipping it to your bird or something, you sound demented. 

[TD_LFC]

Depends on who we sign to replace Mount, but I wouldn't be surprised if Jones starts the season as one of the two advanced midfielders alongside Mac Allister.

 

Not sure we'll see every new signing in the first team from the off.

 

 

 

 

[VladimirIlyich]

36 minutes ago, The Guest said:

You’re imagining stuff that’s not happening.  I sit there and literally count the amount of times he goes to the byline every game because it’s so few if any as we struggled to create anything and Mo just runs into 3 players.  I wouldn’t expect him or want him to do it in the midfield role.  It’s like a syndrome people have that they can’t seem to see it and then they just make things up because they haven’t spotted it themselves and just assume he’s doing it.  The odd time he does do it we actually create chances and goals as I mentioned before but he’s not doing it more than once or twice a game and sometimes not for weeks on end.

 

In terms of winning the big two I’m talking about going forward.  To have an integral player who has a Sunday league level flaw to his game means you aren’t going to beat the big team in latter stages of cups or be consistent enough in the league.  We got away with it playing against Spurs in a final and in the league in a season where the pressure was off after winning 18 games on the run or whatever it was but we were a different side then anyway that is near enough impossible to recreate on the budget we are.

Stats for modern football suggest crossing accounts for far fewer goals than there used to be. 'Hitting the byline' is far less important than the quality of the pass or cutback etc. 

[Barrington Womble]

1 hour ago, TD_LFC said:

Depends on who we sign to replace Mount, but I wouldn't be surprised if Jones starts the season as one of the two advanced midfielders alongside Mac Allister.

 

Not sure we'll see every new signing in the first team from the off.

 

 

 

 

Yeah, I don't expect all new players to start, which is fine if Jones can continue his form and fitness. 

[TD_LFC]

14 minutes ago, Barrington Womble said:

Yeah, I don't expect all new players to start, which is fine if Jones can continue his form and fitness. 

 

Fair few will, looking forward to the first game of the season team announcement when we have 1 new player in the starting lineup.

[joe_fishfish]

1 hour ago, TD_LFC said:

Depends on who we sign to replace Mount, but I wouldn't be surprised if Jones starts the season as one of the two advanced midfielders alongside Mac Allister.

 

Not sure we'll see every new signing in the first team from the off.

 

 

 

 

We sold Mount already? He must have flopped even worse than I thought.

 

If we start the season with only one new player in the eleven it’ll mean Henderson, Fabinho or both are still starting. I refuse to believe we can be that stupid.

[TD_LFC]

5 minutes ago, joe_fishfish said:

We sold Mount already? He must have flopped even worse than I thought.

 

If we start the season with only one new player in the eleven it’ll mean Henderson, Fabinho or both are still starting. I refuse to believe we can be that stupid.

 

It'll just mean Fabinho and Jones are starting.

 

It depends on how quickly new signings adapt to what Klopp wants (as well as outside factors). The rational for Mac Allister being more ready than our other midfield signings (depending on who they are) is he's already played in the league, Brighton have similar midfield structures to us and I imagine things like pressing triggers aren't too dissimilar.

 

If it was Kone and Thuram, for example, I'd guess they'd be introduced more slowly and Klopp likes to keep as settled an 11 as possible going into the first international break (though with Europa instead of CL we might see more rotation in that competition).

 

[Barrington Womble]

26 minutes ago, joe_fishfish said:

We sold Mount already? He must have flopped even worse than I thought.

 

If we start the season with only one new player in the eleven it’ll mean Henderson, Fabinho or both are still starting. I refuse to believe we can be that stupid.

Do you not think it's possible for example we can start the season with Jones and Mac Allister as the 8s with a new 6 and another 8 on the bench and being given time to find their feet, not dissimilar to what fabinho had to do when he joined? I'd go as far as to say unless there's injuries, I'd be shocked if more than 1 new midfielder is in the starting line up first game. We need to sign 2 others and the aim should be having them as 1st team or at least in that discussion, but I don't see need to have them on the park game 1 and I think the form of Jones through the last period of the season takes some pressure off the new signings needing to be ready and on the pitch in game 1. 

[Bjornebye]

2 hours ago, Barrington Womble said:

 

 

Honestly, I don't want to discuss this with you as it's clear you've an issue and an agenda with Trent. We got away with it because we won 18 in a row. Fuck me.

 

As I said before he must have been slipping it to your bird or something, you sound demented. 

 

[joe_fishfish]

No, I'd be okay with a midfield of Jones, Trent and two new signings. That'd be fine. Don't think we should have either Fabinho or Henderson as starters next year let alone both.

[Barrington Womble]

41 minutes ago, joe_fishfish said:

No, I'd be okay with a midfield of Jones, Trent and two new signings. That'd be fine. Don't think we should have either Fabinho or Henderson as starters next year let alone both.

i think the players we bring in should be there to replace those two. but i have absolutely no problem if we take our time integrating them. it just makes sense to me. if they're ready, sound. but it takes time to adapt to the positioning and pressing we do and the spaces that need covering. it was clear as the season ended, the biggest problem position for us was the role henderson was filling. for me, fix that for game 1 and anything else is a bonus. i would be worried if either of fab or henderson are first name on the team sheet type of thing like they were before come the end of the season. 

[The Guest]

We got away with his deficiencies because we had an insane team playing a style of football nobody could cope with at the time.  The best centre back the premier league has seen was thrown in the mix as well.  He was part of the attacking output that put us in that position which is great and when the pros outweighs the cons I don’t care.  I’m not going to pretend that his defending was okay though or even that people demand he needs to play to a world class standard defensively.  That was never the case.

 

Football moved on and now most sides will play out from the back and we can’t rely on squeezing teams to long ball it to Van Dijks head.  We have to actually defend now and he can’t do it.  Since that season which was over 3 years ago his attacking output has dropped whilst his defensive displays have been embarrassing.  We’ve gone from not having to worry about it all really, to having to worry about him in the big games like Real, City etc to now having to worry about him in nearly every single game.

[Paul]

8 hours ago, Barrington Womble said:

 

Personally I think players like stones, zincenko and estupinan have been playing hybrid type roles all season. I think we notice it more becaus 1 its us and 2 trent is so fucking good he is making goal contributions from there nearly every game, which the others are not. 

 

Also I think klopp has spent his time here with players cheating all over the pitch. The full backs were really more wingers than full backs. Mo would normally play as a right forward, but would always be staying inside more than out. Bobby would spend many games deeper than both of our 8s, sometimes Henderson at 8 would cover Trent and almost play right back with the ball, yet other times it was fab. I just don't think we're used to seeing players from full back where we see Trent. We've spent years accepting there are attacking full backs, wing backs, defensive full backs, as long as these lads stayed on the right we didn't really care. Trent just just running in a different direction. The idea of a false 9 was seen as mental not much more than a decade ago, but yet loads and loads of teams have played it consistently over the last number of years. I'm sure this is no different and we'll cheat around the pitch to get the best out of the players we have, while trying to be as unpredictable as we can to defend against. 

Agree with all of that. I just worry a little that it requires such a level of fine tuning and consistency from the entire team for it to work that it can do huge damage to a player’s confidence when it doesn’t. Mind you, I think that’s becoming the case for nearly all teams doing interesting things tactically. The risk and reward mentality of the very best coaches means that when it doesn’t work, we see huge score lines and shocking defeats. 

[Barrington Womble]

17 minutes ago, Paul said:

Agree with all of that. I just worry a little that it requires such a level of fine tuning and consistency from the entire team for it to work that it can do huge damage to a player’s confidence when it doesn’t. Mind you, I think that’s becoming the case for nearly all teams doing interesting things tactically. The risk and reward mentality of the very best coaches means that when it doesn’t work, we see huge score lines and shocking defeats. 

 

I think there was a time where a players job outside of matchday was pretty much turn up for 2 hours a day and do whatever was on the schedule on the pitch and that was about it. I'm sure they spend much longer there now like a real job and to go with this they spend plenty of time in lecture theatres with videos etc learning the tactical side of both what they do themselves or how they deal with an opponent. While we might not be able to train properly between games, they can do this type of work. You're right it does make it intricate and difficult for new players, but I think we have to do it to compete. 

[Joey8FrogsLegs]

On 31/05/2023 at 20:39, TD_LFC said:

Where the fuck did people think he played in our old system, this 'shock' at his 'hybrid' role is mental, I'm not sure whether it's collective amnesia or willful ignorance.

 

We've gone from this

 

 

To this

 

 

 

 

Spot on this. Difference is much smaller than many seem to think. Also the space he leaves for the opponents to attack is nothing new, was exactly the same issue before the switch.

[Moo]

He's not, is he?  And to add to the problem HE seems to think that he is. Klopp needs to deal with it but I don't think he can/will, can he "afford" to upset Trent? 

[Lee909]

His dictating of position has completely unbalanced the team. We have fuck all width down tbe right because he refuses to play as a RB. 

 

He can't play the 6 no matter how much he thinks he can because he's too fucking lazy to defend properly. It's not he can't because we saw over a 3 or 4 year span he can defend ok at RB without being brilliant. Then all the shit with england and Southgate kicked off and he decided he was a midfielder and out zero effort in defensively last year until he was allowed to play the inverted role and the team is unbalanced as fuck with and without the ball because of it. 

 

If we go 433 he has to play in the RM role and that looks like it was Szoboszlai/Elliot role. If we went 4231 we have far too many CM to give them games. 

 

 

Without wanting to go to over the top there is a bad arrogance that runs through many players in this squad the last few years and too many believe the hype and just swan around

[YorkshireRed]

If Trent was ever to leave, do you know who’d want him? Let me help, every big team in the world. 
 

Yes he’s got flaws, but focus on what he is before you examine what he isn’t. 
 

We are lucky to have him. 

[Turkish Delight]

Might be one for the amnesty thread this but you can see in Trent's game how much he wants to be Stevie.

 

Stevie was an asbolute hero in big moments for us and an incredibily talented and determined footballer.

 

For the successes though there were times when he tried to force a game if it was going against us where it didn't work and I felt at times there could be a detrimental effect on the team when he tried the low percentage option too much. The second half against Chelsea in 2014 was probably the biggest example of that.

 

Trent is trying to force the game too much at the moment. There are times it is coming off (and it was only inches away from that today) but it breaks down any concept of team play a lot. There must have been a dozen chips to Onana or into the crowd today which just caused breaks in play that helped United.

 

He needs to find a balance to that or it will have a very detrimental effect on the team and what it can achieve.

[Lee909]

22 minutes ago, YorkshireRed said:

If Trent was ever to leave, do you know who’d want him? Let me help, every big team in the world. 
 

Yes he’s got flaws, but focus on what he is before you examine what he isn’t. 
 

We are lucky to have him. 

 

I don't disagree generally

But this fullback or midfielder shit needs to come to a head one way or the other. I think he can play midfield in a 3 on the right and could potentially give Nunez the service he needs, but him playing neither midfield or RB is harming the balance if the team

[Jairzinho]

38 minutes ago, YorkshireRed said:

If Trent was ever to leave, do you know who’d want him? Let me help, every big team in the world. 
 

Yes he’s got flaws, but focus on what he is before you examine what he isn’t. 
 

We are lucky to have him. 

 

What is he?

[Moo]

20 minutes ago, Turkish Delight said:

Might be one for the amnesty thread this but you can see in Trent's game how much he wants to be Stevie.

 

Stevie was an asbolute hero in big moments for us and an incredibily talented and determined footballer.

 

For the successes though there were times when he tried to force a game if it was going against us where it didn't work and I felt at times there could be a detrimental effect on the team when he tried the low percentage option too much. The second half against Chelsea in 2014 was probably the biggest example of that.

 

Trent is trying to force the game too much at the moment. There are times it is coming off (and it was only inches away from that today) but it breaks down any concept of team play a lot. There must have been a dozen chips to Onana or into the crowd today which just caused breaks in play that helped United.

 

He needs to find a balance to that or it will have a very detrimental effect on the team and what it can achieve.

 

One problem with that is he's not, and never will be, half the midfielder Gerrard was.  

He's truly great at some things but we (Klopp) need to stop indulging him, for his own good and ours.

[YorkshireRed]

4 minutes ago, Jairzinho said:

 

What is he?

One of the most talented English footballers of his generation. 

[Jairzinho]

8 minutes ago, YorkshireRed said:

One of the most talented English footballers of his generation. 

 

Who can't defend, and doesn't have the tactical discipline to play in midfield. So his ability to play volleyed 50 yard passes, as impressive as it is, doesn't solve the issue of where he should play.

 

However, it's Klopp's issue. Not his.

[chrisbonnie]

Just stick Joe gomez at right back from now on and play trent in midfield. 

 

Gomez is more than capable get up and down and put in a few crosses, and in all honesty, trent is probably better than all our midfield, and possibly better than most in the league aswell. 

 

Just unleash the beast