Is Trent Really Worth It?

[coachpotato]

While understanding some of the reasons why we’ve had such an “off” season, I think that it was so poor that it took most by surprise. It did me.

I wouldn’t be at all surprised then if, after a decent summer in the transfer market, a good break and some time to work together, we came back strong next season and surprised a few who might think we’ll not be much improved.

The sticking point will be the transfer market activity, who comes in, who goes out (which has started already) and how quickly the business gets done to maximise time together.

Based on last season, a CL qualification and a cup win would likely be acceptable to most, plus an improvement in playing style and as long as the qualification doesn’t leave us 20 points behind the eventual league winners, very likely to be City.

Nothing like a bit of optimism, is there!

 

[Captain Turdseye]

2 minutes ago, coachpotato said:

While understanding some of the reasons why we’ve had such an “off” season, I think that it was so poor that it took most by surprise. It did me.

I wouldn’t be at all surprised then if, after a decent summer in the transfer market, a good break and some time to work together, we came back strong next season and surprised a few who might think we’ll not be much improved.

The sticking point will be the transfer market activity, who comes in, who goes out (which has started already) and how quickly the business gets done to maximise time together.

Based on last season, a CL qualification and a cup win would likely be acceptable to most, plus an improvement in playing style and as long as the qualification doesn’t leave us 20 points behind the eventual league winners, very likely to be City.

Nothing like a bit of optimism, is there!

 

Good post. 
 

But what do you think about Trent?

[Red74]

It’s a great question this. He’s finished at RB imo. He seemed to have sorted out his problems there but last season he was shocking. The media attention around the build up to World Cup really affected him and it showed on the pitch.

 

There was quite a few games were he just couldn’t be arsed even trying run let alone try and defend. He gets another roasting for a few weeks we could see it again. Esp as Southgate’s on record now saying he’s nowhere near first choice RB.
 

We’ll have to build the team round him if we move him but we’ll need players who can run back to our goal quicker than the oppo when we lose the ball cos he certainly can’t. 
 

Do we develop him into the Thiago we hoped we’d be getting?

 

it’ll be interesting to see

[ZonkoVille77]

Trent is as good as KDB. Play him in a similar role and Bob's yer Grandad 

[The Guest]

I thought he was going to be far more of a liability in midfield than he has been.  He can take it on the turn and is very comfortable under pressure and being closed down.  His passing in there is as good as it has even been at right back.

 

He still gets waltzed past in midfield once or twice every game but I think that’s far less of a problem with other players behind him and if we had an actual back four that didn’t include him there it would be even better.  I’m sick to death of him doing that mindless attempt to cut out a pass that he’s got about 5% chance of success when the winger has ran off him.  I’d happily never see him play right back for us again.

 

I might be completely off here and I hope I am but I doubt we will attempt to sign a right back.  I think this weird hybrid formation is now the plan.  It’s been spoken about on the Podcast a few times how it surely can’t be the case because we can see how lopsided things are and how once this sort of thing is figured out by the opposition then that will be the end of it.  I think the other side of it is the impact on the rest of the team.  Do Konate/Matip find the energy to keep covering the whole side of that pitch for counters week after week and month after month?  Do the midfielders and Salah have it in them to be acting as the wide player with one less option out there.  We’ve already seen how narrow things have gotten after the initial few games of it.

 

It’s extremely short sighted if it is the case.  Klopp has a real blind spot for Trent at right back.  It’s like Benitez levels of pig headedness.  Everything is pointing at him being a club/season destroying liability at right back and has the talent to play as an outright midfielder yet we still haven’t tried it fully for some reason.  How bad could it have been to just put Gomez at right back and let’s see how Trent plays with options both ways and no worry of getting into the back four when we don’t have the ball?

 

I can personally see us heading into next season playing this formation, struggling and the club hitting the panic button at the end of the window and trying to sign one in embarrassing fashion because we don’t seem to have the right plan anymore.

[Moo]

24 minutes ago, The Guest said:

I thought he was going to be far more of a liability in midfield than he has been.  He can take it on the turn and is very comfortable under pressure and being closed down.  His passing in there is as good as it has even been at right back.

 

He still gets waltzed past in midfield once or twice every game but I think that’s far less of a problem with other players behind him and if we had an actual back four that didn’t include him there it would be even better.  I’m sick to death of him doing that mindless attempt to cut out a pass that he’s got about 5% chance of success when the winger has ran off him.  I’d happily never see him play right back for us again.

 

I might be completely off here and I hope I am but I doubt we will attempt to sign a right back.  I think this weird hybrid formation is now the plan.  It’s been spoken about on the Podcast a few times how it surely can’t be the case because we can see how lopsided things are and how once this sort of thing is figured out by the opposition then that will be the end of it.  I think the other side of it is the impact on the rest of the team.  Do Konate/Matip find the energy to keep covering the whole side of that pitch for counters week after week and month after month?  Do the midfielders and Salah have it in them to be acting as the wide player with one less option out there.  We’ve already seen how narrow things have gotten after the initial few games of it.

 

It’s extremely short sighted if it is the case.  Klopp has a real blind spot for Trent at right back.  It’s like Benitez levels of pig headedness.  Everything is pointing at him being a club/season destroying liability at right back and has the talent to play as an outright midfielder yet we still haven’t tried it fully for some reason.  How bad could it have been to just put Gomez at right back and let’s see how Trent plays with options both ways and no worry of getting into the back four when we don’t have the ball?

 

I can personally see us heading into next season playing this formation, struggling and the club hitting the panic button at the end of the window and trying to sign one in embarrassing fashion because we don’t seem to have the right plan anymore.

 

I feel like you've answered your own question about why we've not tried him in midfield outright; he gets waltzed past too often.  I think he'll also get caught out of position too often in there as well.  We can't have that from a CM, that's also season destroying.

He would be a pure luxury player at CM in my opinion.

[TD_LFC]

If people think the wider centre backs covering the full back spaces when playing three at the back or players playing in different positions in defensive and attacking phases is a weird concept then what Fernando Diniz is doing at Fluminese would blow peoples minds.

[Captain Turdseye]

19 minutes ago, TD_LFC said:

If people think the wider centre backs covering the full back spaces when playing three at the back or players playing in different positions in defensive and attacking phases is a weird concept then what Fernando Diniz is doing at Fluminese would blow peoples minds.

Would you be happy to see Matip and Gomez getting torn apart in that system when Konate gets his inevitable injury? It stretches Virgil more now as well. 

 

And where does this leave Robbo? I know he’s a proper team man but it might be a bit galling. Isn’t he the leading assist maker amongst defenders in the PL era? He’s done his job on the other side, weighed in with assists while Trent wasn’t getting any before the switch, but we wouldn’t rip up the system to accommodate Robbo if he’d all of a sudden lost the ability to defend. How much license will a LCB have to get forward when Klopp gets his midfielders?

[Red Shift]

On 01/06/2023 at 05:16, Strontium said:

I don't think the hybrid role is some temporary thing. Klopp introduced it after City destroyed us at the Etihad with John Stones playing there. Hopefully we copy some of the other stuff City do, like having a midfield.

And a thirty-plus-a-season goal scorer.

 

I’m really hoping the coaching staff can impart some strong RB defensive qualities to Trent’s play ready for the start of next season. Or are we shit because we’ve actually been playing a 2-5-3 formation all season?

[Turkish Delight]

Trent himself has looked really impressive in the hybrid role. He has the ability to pick a pass that nobody else in our team has and it's brought that to the fore a bit.

 

However, as a team we've only created chances from open play against teams who are terrible defensively while he's played there. Notably the 3 teams who have been relegated. In the other games aside from the first 5 minutes v Spurs we've only really created from set pieces.

 

It's clear that the system isolates Salah on the right and makes us overall play very narrow. Sides who want to dig in and play a low block  are limiting us to very little as we aren't moving them about. We don't have the same quality of players that City have so copying them tactically doesn't seem like the right blueprint.

 

For me, Trent either becomes a centre mid in a more traditional role or he starts to learn some of the basic defending elements needed to enable him to successfully play right back.

 

In either situation it shouldn't be a case of building a team around him.

[Jose Jones]

28 minutes ago, Turkish Delight said:

Trent himself has looked really impressive in the hybrid role. He has the ability to pick a pass that nobody else in our team has and it's brought that to the fore a bit.

 

However, as a team we've only created chances from open play against teams who are terrible defensively while he's played there. Notably the 3 teams who have been relegated. In the other games aside from the first 5 minutes v Spurs we've only really created from set pieces.

 

It's clear that the system isolates Salah on the right and makes us overall play very narrow. Sides who want to dig in and play a low block  are limiting us to very little as we aren't moving them about. We don't have the same quality of players that City have so copying them tactically doesn't seem like the right blueprint.

 

For me, Trent either becomes a centre mid in a more traditional role or he starts to learn some of the basic defending elements needed to enable him to successfully play right back.

 

In either situation it shouldn't be a case of building a team around him.

 

Trent's defending at right back was perfectly fine for years.  This season a combo of team defensive issues and him definitely not giving as much of a shit has seen him be way worse.  He also didn't have a single assist all season, until he started pushing into the centre then he had one a game.

I reckon it's a bit tactics, but mostly Trent's head.

[Barrington Womble]

8 hours ago, Captain Turdseye said:

Interesting opinions in here. 
 

1 - Play him upfront - haha

2 - New midfield three, Trent back in his old RB role - That’s the problem, isn’t it. He was being targeted by teams, which essentially makes him our weak link at the back. There’s no denying that it’s been an issue and I don’t see how a midfielder that runs more than Hendo instantly fixes those things. 
 

3 - Persist with him moving into midfield as he has been - We’re not good enough using that system to challenge for the big pots. Do new midfielders fix that? I don’t know. I guess the answer remains to be seen if option 3 is what Jurgen is going with. We’re gonna need new defenders too. The definition of building a team around him. 
 

 

Another thing, we’ve been pretty much without proper cover for Trent at RB. We’re certainly without cover for Trent v2.0. What happens when he gets injured? Not only do we have no cover, we could end up in a situation where we’re bringing in Ramsay/Bradley and having to revert to the old tried and tested 4-3-3. 

 

You'd do about the same when he gets injured like we have the last 6 years or whatever, make do, probably be a little inferior to what we did before, but make the most of it. I would imagine Trent and thiago would be pretty unlikely to both play in this box midfield. So if Trent is out, you can maybe manage thiago. Bring him in, push the 6 right, play a conventional full back, drop gakpo deeper into midfield and the wide forwards narrower. It's a tweak I'm sure the players are more than capable of dealing with. 

 

 

7 hours ago, Captain Turdseye said:

Another question. Were we really that good in the games where he’s been pushed into midfield? Honestly?
 

And another. Can you see us fighting for the league title lining up that way?

 

We aren’t Man City. They’re solid at the back and you can’t get the ball off them. We’re miles off being that team. 

Mostly teams are never that good, includong city. In every 10 games they're probably brilliant once or twice and the other games you find a way to win or at least not lose with varying degrees of success. We didn't lose in this formation, played very well 2nd half (just 45 mins into playing this systeml against arsenal, played well at Leeds and Leicester, completely smashed spurs till it was boring and remained unbeaten. That seems like a start to me when you're finding your feet with a new system.

 

In my opinion, those Leeds and Leicester results can't be underestimated in terms of a turn around. If we'd have dealt with Leeds like that at home, forest, Bournemouth, Everton and wolves away in  that manner, I don't think we would have even been talking about a new system as it would still be in the tank for the summer. If we had done what we did in the last 9 games throughout the season (Southampton aside, which was an exception for klopps sentimentality), knocking over the sides you should, then we'd have probably fought arsenal for 2nd. 

 

What we did for the last quarter.of the season was a roaring success. It shouldn't stop what plans we had in the transfer market, it should encourage us if we bring in some freshness, we'll be back challenging at the top. 

[3 Stacks]

51 minutes ago, Jose Jones said:

 

Trent's defending at right back was perfectly fine for years.  This season a combo of team defensive issues and him definitely not giving as much of a shit has seen him be way worse.  He also didn't have a single assist all season, until he started pushing into the centre then he had one a game.

I reckon it's a bit tactics, but mostly Trent's head.

Exactly. Some of the posts in here make it seem like it's impossible to even have him on the pitch and function properly. It's a matter of putting players in positions to succeed and getting them to enjoy their football, which this formation has done for him. The intangible stuff I think is not worth discussing most of the time but he clearly looked dead inside for months as did most of the team, but him more than most. 

 

And then tactically finding a balance. People forget City play with 5 really clear defensive profiles to make up for what they do on the other end. It isn't abnormal to have to make up for certain players in other ways. It's something we have to figure out again. 

[TD_LFC]

7 hours ago, Captain Turdseye said:

Would you be happy to see Matip and Gomez getting torn apart in that system when Konate gets his inevitable injury? It stretches Virgil more now as well. 

 

And where does this leave Robbo? I know he’s a proper team man but it might be a bit galling. Isn’t he the leading assist maker amongst defenders in the PL era? He’s done his job on the other side, weighed in with assists while Trent wasn’t getting any before the switch, but we wouldn’t rip up the system to accommodate Robbo if he’d all of a sudden lost the ability to defend. How much license will a LCB have to get forward when Klopp gets his midfielders?

 

We've played the same system in different ways already, the idea is to be tactically flexible enough to adjust before and during games.

 

We played the same box midfield with and without Trent at the base using Gakpo to drop deeper before breaking forward in the false 9.

 

No tactic is perfect and no tactic will benefit every player I just don't get this hand wringing on what are fairly basic components of tactics that people are acting like are new and strange concepts or making out Trent suddenly has two jobs when he never had before.

 

If someone said we're starting with 3 at the back nobody would bat an eyelid and the idea of the right and left sided centre backs having to cover wider areas wouldn't be an issue, nobody made an issue of it when we played 2 at the back and one of the centre backs had to go out there if the opposition beat the midfield cover, yet here we are.

 

 

[TD_LFC]

2 hours ago, Barrington Womble said:

So if Trent is out, you can maybe manage thiago. Bring him in, push the 6 right, play a conventional full back, drop gakpo deeper into midfield and the wide forwards narrower. It's a tweak I'm sure the players are more than capable of dealing with. 

 

It's a tweak we did (with Henderson instead of Thiago) against Utd in the 7-0 game.

[coachpotato]

9 hours ago, Captain Turdseye said:

Good post. 
 

But what do you think about Trent?

Aye, got a bit sidetracked there! Trent is, arguably, the one world class outfield player we currently have going forwards, that is assuming Mo might not be here in 2 years or so. Alisson is a keeper obviously not an outfield player. No doubting Trent’s attacking and creative prowess, but there’s still some doubts about his defensive qualities, where he’s looked disinterested at times, and he looked rejuvenated when placed in that midfield role.

I believe you shouldn’t try to put round pegs in square holes, we’ve tried that in the past and it doesn’t work, so a decision has to be made as to which of the two positions Trent is going to play in, which I suspect would be in midfield, and another player used in the place he’s not going to be playing in. So probably a different right back, if we’re having a back four, with him in midfield, as a quarterback style player who can pick the passes out for the forwards to be got in behind defences, and where he can use his shooting abilities more.

[TD_LFC]

20 minutes ago, coachpotato said:

so a decision has to be made as to which of the two positions Trent is going to play in, which I suspect would be in midfield, and another player used in the place he’s not going to be playing in.

 

Which of course creates a new problem where we'll have to decide if he wants to be a winger or a right back and then buy a right back to replace him.

 

But we can't have 12 players on the pitch so we're in a bit of a quandary.

 

He's a right back when he steps into midfield when we have possession in the same way he was a right back when he played predominantly as a winger/wide attacker when in possession.

 

This isn't a massively complex idea to grasp, players will stand in different positions depending on the game state, if we're defending, they'll have a role, if we're attacking they'll have a role and then transitioning from one to the other or back they'll have another role to fulfill.

 

It's like saying Firminio was a hybrid 9/midfielder or Henderson was a 'hybrid' midfielder/right back.

[clockspeed]

He looks like a non tackling Thiago. I am old enough to remember Jan Molby strolling about our midfield with everyone else making up for his lack of mobility and tackling . Believe you me it was seriously enjoyable to watch and we were extremely successful.  Have to hold my hands up I like luxury players in fact love them. Apart from the winning,  football is about enjoyment and giving us some enjoyment from mundane lives . Full packages like Stevie are few and far between I say stick the lad in midfield get a couple of south American hackers around him and honestly think you will see the best of Nunez . 

 

[joe_fishfish]

8 hours ago, TD_LFC said:

If people think the wider centre backs covering the full back spaces when playing three at the back or players playing in different positions in defensive and attacking phases is a weird concept then what Fernando Diniz is doing at Fluminese would blow peoples minds.

Out of interest mate what is Diniz doing at Fluminense? Got any good links? Always interested in a tactical shift.

[coachpotato]

I was assuming Trent and two in midfield, if playing a three there. Klopp appears happiest with a 4-3-3 I think, but I’m sure Trent is talented enough to play in whatever position Jurgen wants him to. I’m old school regarding formations, I believe primarily you don’t concede, that way you don’t lose, but obviously you need to have enough going forwards to score because equally, if you don’t score you don’t win.

We we’re at our most effective under Klopp when we had a four at the back, the advantage being the midfield three protected sufficiently enough to allow the full backs to attack and supplement the front three, but I’m not sure we’re going to be able to have that setup again with the players we have or might buy.

Someone said the other day, I think it was in the Bobby thread, we’ll not see a team with the abilities of Fabinho, Henderson, Wijnaldum, Mane, Firmino, Salah, Robertson and Trent combining as they did, again.

It was a once in a lifetime team. So we have to rebuild and who knows what Klopp has got up his sleeve?

 

[TD_LFC]

7 minutes ago, joe_fishfish said:

Out of interest mate what is Diniz doing at Fluminense? Got any good links? Always interested in a tactical shift.

 

They've moved away from the generally accepted principles of controlling and protecting space in favour of 'relationships' grouping players in small spaces and a seemingly structureless system.

 

Presumably it has some of it's basis in Futsal but not sure.

 

Here's one video on it.

 

 

[joe_fishfish]

13 minutes ago, clockspeed said:

He looks like a non tackling Thiago. I am old enough to remember Jan Molby strolling about our midfield with everyone else making up for his lack of mobility and tackling . Believe you me it was seriously enjoyable to watch and we were extremely successful.  Have to hold my hands up I like luxury players in fact love them. Apart from the winning,  football is about enjoyment and giving us some enjoyment from mundane lives . Full packages like Stevie are few and far between I say stick the lad in midfield get a couple of south American hackers around him and honestly think you will see the best of Nunez . 

 

Since he’s been playing as a midfielder in possession I think he has more successful tackles and more ball recoveries than our actual midfielders do. He’s not peak Mascherano in there or anything but he’s hardly Jorginho either.

[TD_LFC]

21 minutes ago, coachpotato said:

I was assuming Trent and two in midfield, if playing a three there. Klopp appears happiest with a 4-3-3 I think, but I’m sure Trent is talented enough to play in whatever position Jurgen wants him to. I’m old school regarding formations, I believe primarily you don’t concede, that way you don’t lose, but obviously you need to have enough going forwards to score because equally, if you don’t score you don’t win.

We we’re at our most effective under Klopp when we had a four at the back, the advantage being the midfield three protected sufficiently enough to allow the full backs to attack and supplement the front three, but I’m not sure we’re going to be able to have that setup again with the players we have or might buy.

Someone said the other day, I think it was in the Bobby thread, we’ll not see a team with the abilities of Fabinho, Henderson, Wijnaldum, Mane, Firmino, Salah, Robertson and Trent combining as they did, again.

It was a once in a lifetime team. So we have to rebuild and who knows what Klopp has got up his sleeve?

 

 

We still play 433 (as much as 433 is a thing), and we still play 4 at the back in the same way as we previously did, those fundamentals haven't changed. 

 

The tweaks are mainly in the make up of things like the rest defence (players left over when attacking) and who makes up the attack all when in possession.

 

We used to play a 2-3 defence with two centre backs and three midfielders with the attack comprised of the two fullbacks and three attackers, we now play a 3-2 defence (and have experimented with the 2-3) with 2 centre backs, two full backs (one in a double pivot and one on the left of the defence) and the #6 with the attack made up of the three attackers and both #8's.

 

The irony is, despite Guardiola taking much of the credit for inventing this, most of the principles date back to the 1920's and the creation of the W-M formation popularised by Herbert Chapman.

[LFC 6 Times]

I really don’t see the issue with just throwing him into midfield completely and finding a conventional RB.

[joe_fishfish]

1 hour ago, TD_LFC said:

 

They've moved away from the generally accepted principles of controlling and protecting space in favour of 'relationships' grouping players in small spaces and a seemingly structureless system.

 

Presumably it has some of it's basis in Futsal but not sure.

 

Here's one video on it.

 

 

This is fucking excellent mate. Thank you.