TUPE Stuff

[Spy Bee]

As a company we have been providing a service to an NHS Trust without a contract for 6 years. At least one member of staff has been involved in providing that contract for more than 80% of their time. They have recently taken the decision award a 12 month contract for this service to another company. They did this without informing us, and without offering TUPE. As far as I am concerned, TUPE definitely applies. So what do we do now?

[Bjornebye]

4 minutes ago, Spy Bee said:

So as a company we have been providing a service to an NHS Trust without a contract for 6 years. At least one member of staff has been involved in providing that contract for more than 80% of their time. They have recently taken the decision award a 12 month contract for this service to another company. They did this without informing us, and without offering TUPE. As far as I am concerned, TUPE definitely applies. So what do we do now?

This and the member of staff working for you and not them directly removes any right for your company to have grounds for complaint I would say. Its shitty and probably immoral unless there have been shortcomings but I'd say you haven't got a leg to stand on as a company based on what you have said. 

 

Do you know why on early a contract was never drawn up? That seems absolutely crazy to me this day in age. They would come under government frameworks for tender as well wouldn't they? 

[Spy Bee]

Just now, Bjornebye said:

This and the member of staff working for you and not them directly removes any right for your company to have grounds for complaint I would say. Its shitty and probably immoral unless there have been shortcomings but I'd say you haven't got a leg to stand on as a company based on what you have said. 

6 years of providing a service, would I believe count. They are transferring a service, which is what TUPE is designed around.

[Bjornebye]

1 minute ago, Spy Bee said:

6 years of providing a service, would I believe count. They are transferring a service, which is what TUPE is designed around.

Maybe my understanding of it is wrong then. 

 

I added to my original reply. 

[Spy Bee]

3 minutes ago, Bjornebye said:

Do you know why on early a contract was never drawn up? That seems absolutely crazy to me this day in age. They would come under government frameworks for tender as well wouldn't they? 

Yes, the mad thing is that we provide this service on two frameworks too, so they could have hopped on either at any time. The one thing I would say is that this started small for the first 12 months and grew, so initially was under all thresholds.

 

There is quite a lot of non-contracted spend knocking about, but much less than there used to be. In fairness, almost off all of our business with governmental organisations would now be contracted in some way shape or form.

[cloggypop]

Simply marry a Tory member of cabinet. 

[Strontium]

1 hour ago, Spy Bee said:

As a company we have been providing a service to an NHS Trust without a contract for 6 years. At least one member of staff has been involved in providing that contract for more than 80% of their time. They have recently taken the decision award a 12 month contract for this service to another company. They did this without informing us, and without offering TUPE. As far as I am concerned, TUPE definitely applies. So what do we do now?

 

Tricky position you're in because if you rightly sue the NHS, you'll get called all sorts by virtue signalling clowns.

[Bjornebye]

9 minutes ago, Stront19m Dog™ said:

 

Tricky position you're in because if you rightly sue the NHS, you'll get called all sorts by virtue signalling clowns.

What right have they got to sue though? 

[Barrington Womble]

1 hour ago, Spy Bee said:

6 years of providing a service, would I believe count. They are transferring a service, which is what TUPE is designed around.

Have you ever had a contract with them? And if so, how did the contract define the relationship at the end of the original term? 

[Elite]

No idea mate, wigs aren't my specialty.

[Bjornebye]

24 minutes ago, Elite said:

No idea mate, wigs aren't my specialty.

Fuck him in the ear. 

 

 

 

 

 

Fuck him in the other ear. 

[Bjornebye]

2 hours ago, Spy Bee said:

As a company we have been providing a service to an NHS Trust without a contract for 6 years. At least one member of staff has been involved in providing that contract for more than 80% of their time. They have recently taken the decision award a 12 month contract for this service to another company. They did this without informing us, and without offering TUPE. As far as I am concerned, TUPE definitely applies. So what do we do now?

Get whoever has decided to change the relationship to join this forum and neg Strontz. At the very least it might get him a bloody nose at work and you can feel a bit better. 

[Strontium]

1 hour ago, Bjornebye said:

What right have they got to sue though? 

 

Obviously I'm not an expert, but it sounds like they did something dodgy here.

[Creator Supreme]

@Spy Bee Are you union members dude? If so, straight on to your regional officer to see what can be done. If not, speak to an employment lawyer (if you have home or motor insurance with legal protection cover this could be an option for you).

 

Failing that get on to the Citizens Advice Bureau and / or ACAS (either via the website, or give them a bell).

 

I wish you and your fellow employees the best of luck, you probably have more rights than you think, but less than you should. Your employer won't be of much helping in letting you know your rights (and don't get me started on Human Remains)!

[mattyq]

2 hours ago, Spy Bee said:

As a company we have been providing a service to an NHS Trust without a contract for 6 years. At least one member of staff has been involved in providing that contract for more than 80% of their time. They have recently taken the decision award a 12 month contract for this service to another company. They did this without informing us, and without offering TUPE. As far as I am concerned, TUPE definitely applies. So what do we do now?

I don't get this

Is the employee still going to do the work for another contractor? In other words they are being transferred?

If not then I don't think it has anything to do with Tupe especially if there was never a contract 

[Barrington Womble]

21 minutes ago, Stront19m Dog™ said:

 

Obviously I'm not an expert, but it sounds like they did something dodgy here.

Well that depends on loads of things, spy bee so far has shared very little info aside from they are working to some type of informal agreement. 

[Juniper]

3 hours ago, Spy Bee said:

Yes, the mad thing is that we provide this service on two frameworks too, so they could have hopped on either at any time. The one thing I would say is that this started small for the first 12 months and grew, so initially was under all thresholds.

 

There is quite a lot of non-contracted spend knocking about, but much less than there used to be. In fairness, almost off all of our business with governmental organisations would now be contracted in some way shape or form.

Unfortunately thanks to covid the rules around procurement thresholds have been relaxed under what's called PPN.

 

Not sure what you can do without a contract in place, especially one that expired so long ago. Check the exit terms on the original contract.

 

Also, is TUPE into play as they could be a transfer of staff (i.e. Their employer changes as part of this new service?)

[Bjornebye]

1 hour ago, Stront19m Dog™ said:

 

Obviously I'm not an expert, but it sounds like they did something dodgy here.

Morally or legally? 

[Spy Bee]

I've spoken to a HR solicitor and TUPE does apply. They have transferred a service we were providing to another company. As such, the protection of our staff members employment should have been considered and wasn't. The fact we have been providing the service for so long means it's established in custom and practise or something like that. I can't remember exactly what she said.

 

We've raised it with the (ex) customer and await their response.

[Bjornebye]

You are being very vague mate. 

[Spy Bee]

51 minutes ago, Bjornebye said:

You are being very vague mate. 

Well, I don't see how?

 

I'm obviously not going to name services or interested parties on a public forum. Apart from that I don't know how I can be any more specific.

[dockers_strike]

15 hours ago, Spy Bee said:

As a company we have been providing a service to an NHS Trust without a contract for 6 years. At least one member of staff has been involved in providing that contract for more than 80% of their time. They have recently taken the decision award a 12 month contract for this service to another company. They did this without informing us, and without offering TUPE. As far as I am concerned, TUPE definitely applies. So what do we do now?

Although there is no written contract, there is an implied contract that has been established over a 6 year period with the supply of services and payment in return.

 

Im not really sure what the issue is here though. Is it that they have just ended the 'contract' without notice or you and the people who worked on the contract have now been shifted to another employer?

 

If it's the former, agreements do end. The company could be persued through the courts for the sudden loss of business with no warning.

 

If it is about transfer of employees to the new company, then someone needs to raise the issue of TUPE with both companies. If the old company says there's no contract, whistle, you point out there has been an implied contract as evidenced over the last 6 years for services that have been paid.

 

If they still ignore that, you either need to get the relevant union involved or club together and go see an employment solicitor \ lawyer and ask their advice \ help.

[Elite]

1 hour ago, Spy Bee said:

Well, I don't see how?

 

I'm obviously not going to name services or interested parties on a public forum. Apart from that I don't know how I can be any more specific.

 

[Spy Bee]

1 hour ago, dockers_strike said:

Although there is no written contract, there is an implied contract that has been established over a 6 year period with the supply of services and payment in return.

 

Im not really sure what the issue is here though. Is it that they have just ended the 'contract' without notice or you and the people who worked on the contract have now been shifted to another employer?

 

If it's the former, agreements do end. The company could be persued through the courts for the sudden loss of business with no warning.

 

If it is about transfer of employees to the new company, then someone needs to raise the issue of TUPE with both companies. If the old company says there's no contract, whistle, you point out there has been an implied contract as evidenced over the last 6 years for services that have been paid.

 

If they still ignore that, you either need to get the relevant union involved or club together and go see an employment solicitor \ lawyer and ask their advice \ help.

The issue is, that they didn't tell us that they were transferring the service to another company, and as such, we were not given the opportunity to tell them that one of our employees would qualify for TUPE. The PE bit stands for protection of employment and his employment was not protected.

 

I have separate issues with the way they went about it, but don't really have a leg to stand on regarding that.

[Bjornebye]

You are his employer though aren't you? 

 

From what you have put I would say you guys just lost out and if they have moved all of a sudden then you are either too expensive or not doing the job to the right standard. Wipe your mouths, let it be a lesson to you for not having a contract and move on.

 

Do you manufacture PPE by any chance?