Should the UK remain a member of the EU

[FanchesterCity]

Unless you are a person of interest to them, I doubt they care much. The only thing you could do is cause yourself problems on entry next time. They have such strict controls getting in that they then pass the problem to another country. Although there are very strong links between countries that are not widely publicised. 

 

The system works I guess because if someone else leaves as you, well the numbers didn't go up. Plus you'd be a bit stuck with no passport and their system having been told you'd left on a flight. They are notified when the flight leaves. You'd then have a very length interview when they caught up with you.

 

Just because the security is not immediately apparent, don't think it isn't there and very thorough. 

 

The conversation really came about because I said a lot of people arrive in the UK legitimately and then over stay - thus they become illegal immigrants, and our failure to track them down shows there's a lack of control regardless of being in the EU or not.

I used the example of the US being a much more aggressive border control.

Barry Wom then went on to say it didn't necessarily mean they had any better control of counting who was in and who was out so could lose track just like we do (although we don't even count and I believe the US does, even if it proves to be prone to error as Barry Wom suggests).

 

I no reason to doubt Barry Wom's experiences, but it does beg the question that if it's so easy to board a transatlantic plane from the US without having a passport checked, then that must be seriously worrying. It doesn't 'sound' right. The only explanation I can think of is that Barry is being tracked in a way he's not fully aware of... e.g. The boarding pass (but that's not much of a check if his passport isn't checked to prove he's who he says he is).

[Hades]

[Barrington Womble]

Unless you are a person of interest to them, I doubt they care much. The only thing you could do is cause yourself problems on entry next time. They have such strict controls getting in that they then pass the problem to another country. Although there are very strong links between countries that are not widely publicised.

 

The system works I guess because if someone else leaves as you, well the numbers didn't go up. Plus you'd be a bit stuck with no passport and their system having been told you'd left on a flight. They are notified when the flight leaves. You'd then have a very length interview when they caught up with you.

 

Just because the security is not immediately apparent, don't think it isn't there and very thorough.

As I said, I had exactly that issue though and it wasn't a lengthy discussion. They just asked me about my travel the week before, then told me that they believed me to still be in the county and I showed them my previous boarding card. My flight back to the uk the week before was actually an outbound flight - the flight from the previous week into the US was also an outbound and I had yet to use the return. It seemed to me US immigration utilised airline data rather than any synchronisation with UK borders.

[Strontium]

I just think something has gone horribly wrong when folk are focusing on what we can do track people to within an inch of their lives rather than what we can do to enable them to roam as they please over this magnificent planet of ours.

[FanchesterCity]

And also the fact that there are imports of steel coming into the uk from the eu.

 

You cant say that port talbot doesnt have a large enough uk market because it was built to provide for the uk market.

 

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Being built to provide for a UK market is fine. But if you can't provide steel at a price than UK businesses need, you're dead.

If I ran a bakery, and I needed grain, and there was a UK granary down the road charging 1.00 and one in France charging 50p, as much as I'd like to support the bakery down the road, I can't subsidise them at the cost to my own business. In the end I'll buy from France.

It's up to the UK firm to compete with the French granary.

 

Remember British Leyland - when the people of the UK decided they liked Japanese cars. We had a massive campaign to Buy British, and for a while a lot of people did their best to do that. But we made shit cars and the Japanese made good ones. We could bleat on about our history of engineering and great tradition of quality, but the cars were shit and rusted in 5 years. Datsun were making cheaper and more reliable cars, and in the end, the British public weren't prepared to be taken for mugs by British Leyland - who by then were even using Honda engines (whilst the bodywork still rusted)

[PestiRed]

No you stop steel coming into the uk.

 

Go and tell the steel workers in port talbot that their steel is inferior and is cheaper than steel from either the eu or china.

 

Steel is very heavy stuff so it is ludacris the idea of imprting it from china as well as expensive.

 

Ultimately steel us steel it is no different than steel made anywhere else.

 

We should stop supporting eu jobs and look after our own.

 

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You genuinely believe that we are importing steel from China that is more expensive than UK steel because the EU is forcing us to?

[Kloppite]

Being built to provide for a UK market is fine. But if you can't provide steel at a price than UK businesses need, you're dead.

If I ran a bakery, and I needed grain, and there was a UK granary down the road charging 1.00 and one in France charging 50p, as much as I'd like to support the bakery down the road, I can't subsidise them at the cost to my own business. In the end I'll buy from France.

It's up to the UK firm to compete with the French granary.

The united states has laws to prevent imports of steal coming into the usa to protect us jobs.

 

The price of steel was never an issue with port talbot it was the amount of steel. There was an overproduction if steel in the eu that was causing the problem.

 

Far be it from a steel producer in the eu to skew the amount of steel available to put port talbot out of business.

 

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[Kloppite]

You genuinely believe that we are importing steel from China that is more expensive than UK steel because the EU is forcing us to?

I dont believe we are importing steel from china at all.

 

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[thechap]

Perhaps if you could make a cogent argument for exactly what this huge problem with immigration is which isn't couched in either flat-out racism or some nebulous and utterly meaningless shite about 'Britishness' or 'our British way of life' people might consider that there was another reason for it.  Thing is, a hell of a lot of the out voters can't do that because it's exactly why they voted out.  In a  52/48 vote there arre certainly more than enough of those fucktards to account for the difference regardless of whether you're one of them.

 

I've just got up, made a brew, bought a paper from the shop, made two bacon butties and now I'm sitting here on my PC.  Later OI'll be having steak for my tea and watching footy on the telly.  My 'British way of life' seems pretty much intact.  I live in a council ward that has an ethnic minority population which is over 70%.

 

I also keep hearing about the economic woes these immigrants cause us, yet every day at work I deal with loads of them.  I work for HMRC and what I'm doing is sorting their tax codes out in the main, or sorting repayments out when they've paid too much tax due to working for four or five agencies during a tax year and having to change between them so often that things get fucked up.  Good luck with getting the over-educated kids being churned out of out 6th form colleges and universities to do the jobs those people are doing - packing bottles of bleach in a factory all day, picking fruit and spuds, loading waggons.  And they are all paying tax and NI, paying into the very system that people keep telling us they are destroying.

 

That's without even getting into the other immigrants working in the sacred NHS which all the leave voters apparently gave so many shits about.

 

Nah, the fact is that if you take the dribble-chinned cunts who want to go back to not even the real 1930s but an imaginary one out of the equation Leave would have had absolutely fuck all chance of winning this.  So I'll carry on blaming them.  If you don't recognise yourself in that description, why the fuck are you getting so butthurt about it since it's not a comment on you?

 

Well that's just really nice for you and is yet another example of the blindness to the problem.  Fucktards?  Nice touch.  That you equate being able to make nice cup of tea with a nice bacon buttie with how everything must be rosy in the garden for everyone else shows just how ignorant you are.

 

Not many people complaining about uncontrolled immigration would dispute that you have to work on their tax codes.  How does you being proud of working on the tax codes of immigrants make it easier for someone to get an appointment at the GP, or to get a school place for their child, or do anything about the shortage of housing part fuelled by high immigration, or comfort the a victim of crime where the perpetrator was a foreign criminal who never should have been let in?  To those people your tax code role must really lift their spirits.

 

The point about controlled immigration is that where we have a shortage of workers who can pick fruit, we can grant foreign workers temporary visas to do the job.  It's not rocket science and it's not racist.

 

You line about NHS workers is the banal line trotted out by the Remainers.  If we need a foreign doctor or nurse then let's go and get one.  One of the reasons why we're so grateful to have foreign doctors and nurses is because there are a few more million people who have come to the country who need NHS services.  That also is not rocket science.

 

Anyway, as you were, insulting the Leavers.  I will resume my own position of laughing at you.

[FanchesterCity]

The united states has laws to prevent imports of steal coming into the usa to protect us jobs.

 

The price of steel was never an issue with port talbot it was the amount of steel. There was an overproduction if steel in the eu that was causing the problem.

 

Far be it from a steel producer in the eu to skew the amount of steel available to put port talbot out of business.

 

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It's the amount of steel that affects the price. There would be no problem with over production is the prices held their price.

But it wasn't over production in the EU that caused it, it was China subsidising cheap steel and flooding both the EU and US markets, which is precisely what prompted the EU and the US to increase tariffs - the US, massively so.

[PestiRed]

I dont believe we are importing steel from china at all.

 

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We definitely are, 687,000 tonnes of it in 2014

[Kloppite]

It's the amount of steel that affects the price. There would be no problem with over production is the prices held their price.

But it wasn't over production in the EU that caused it, it was China subsidising cheap steel and flooding both the EU and US markets, which is precisely what prompted the EU and the US to increase tariffs - the US, massively so.

That is bollocks the eu did place tarrifs on chinese steel but the fact of the matter was and is that there is and was huge overproduction of steel in the eu.

 

That is the crux of the matter that is the very reason port talbot got into shit. It was the eu steel production that was the problem not chinese steel.

 

Why would you go through the trpuble of making more steel than was needed.

 

Say you had a bakery and it cost you 20p to make a bun and there are a finite amount of customers why would it make any sense what so ever to make more cakes than you could possibly sell.

 

You could argue that your buns will last a long time but at some point youre going to hit a point where you are not going to make anybuns because the will go off long before you get a chance to sell them so why would you bother cause it doesnt make any sense whatsover.

 

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[FanchesterCity]

We do import from China, though not as much as from the EU, but that still doesn't matter...

 

If the UK had 1 million tonnes of steel and the EU had 1 billions tonnes, we would still buy from the UK if it was cheap enough.

If the EU overproduced, then that would drive prices down, but it would also hurt the EU prices too.

It was China who drove the prices down via government subsidisations, many would argue deliberately.

 

The EU produces 11% of global steel, so it's a hard push to claim EU overproduction drove down steel prices.

China produces about 45% of global steel <-- this is who dictates the price.

[RoboRiise]

Well that's just really nice for you and is yet another example of the blindness to the problem.  Fucktards?  Nice touch.  That you equate being able to make nice cup of tea with a nice bacon buttie with how everything must be rosy in the garden for everyone else shows just how ignorant you are.

 

Not many people complaining about uncontrolled immigration would dispute that you have to work on their tax codes.  How does you being proud of working on the tax codes of immigrants make it easier for someone to get an appointment at the GP, or to get a school place for their child, or do anything about the shortage of housing part fuelled by high immigration, or comfort the a victim of crime where the perpetrator was a foreign criminal who never should have been let in?  To those people your tax code role must really lift their spirits.

 

The point about controlled immigration is that where we have a shortage of workers who can pick fruit, we can grant foreign workers temporary visas to do the job.  It's not rocket science and it's not racist.

 

You line about NHS workers is the banal line trotted out by the Remainers.  If we need a foreign doctor or nurse then let's go and get one.  One of the reasons why we're so grateful to have foreign doctors and nurses is because there are a few more million people who have come to the country who need NHS services.  That also is not rocket science.

 

Anyway, as you were, insulting the Leavers.  I will resume my own position of laughing at you.

 

That's fine.  Since you're obviously incapable of reading (unless you imagine that none of the leavers exhibit the traits I mentioned becase I sure as shit didn't say that they all did) I'll carry on laughing at you.  Well for maybe five minutes, to be honest you're rapidly approaching the limit of your humour value.

[Red Phoenix]

Yeah we should get to say not who is in charge but if we even want anyone in charge at all. As I've repeated endlessly representative democracy is representative democracy. It's not democracy a totally different entity which requires public participation to give us a day to vote every five years. Lazily claiming we live in a democracy doesn't change that truth anymore than when they claim democracy in north korea.

 

Agreed. I still personally support anarchism and would prefer the government not to even exist, although I don't hold much hope at all of seeing anything like that happen in my lifetime. Was simply pointing out that the example described didn't have to mean an elite instead of something more based on working class people.

[kalasoma]

Perhaps if you could make a cogent argument for exactly what this huge problem with immigration is which isn't couched in either flat-out racism or some nebulous and utterly meaningless shite about 'Britishness' or 'our British way of life' people might consider that there was another reason for it.  Thing is, a hell of a lot of the out voters can't do that because it's exactly why they voted out.  In a  52/48 vote there arre certainly more than enough of those fucktards to account for the difference regardless of whether you're one of them.

 

I've just got up, made a brew, bought a paper from the shop, made two bacon butties and now I'm sitting here on my PC.  Later OI'll be having steak for my tea and watching footy on the telly.  My 'British way of life' seems pretty much intact.  I live in a council ward that has an ethnic minority population which is over 70%.

 

I also keep hearing about the economic woes these immigrants cause us, yet every day at work I deal with loads of them.  I work for HMRC and what I'm doing is sorting their tax codes out in the main, or sorting repayments out when they've paid too much tax due to working for four or five agencies during a tax year and having to change between them so often that things get fucked up.  Good luck with getting the over-educated kids being churned out of out 6th form colleges and universities to do the jobs those people are doing - packing bottles of bleach in a factory all day, picking fruit and spuds, loading waggons.  And they are all paying tax and NI, paying into the very system that people keep telling us they are destroying.

 

That's without even getting into the other immigrants working in the sacred NHS which all the leave voters apparently gave so many shits about.

 

Nah, the fact is that if you take the dribble-chinned cunts who want to go back to not even the real 1930s but an imaginary one out of the equation Leave would have had absolutely fuck all chance of winning this.  So I'll carry on blaming them.  If you don't recognise yourself in that description, why the fuck are you getting so butthurt about it since it's not a comment on you?

 

I tried to ask a similar question to the one you proposed a couple of times, without a response. Hopefully, you'll have better luck with an answer.

[Red Phoenix]

I tried to ask a similar question to the one you proposed a couple of times, without a response. Hopefully, you'll have better luck with an answer.

 

I remember a couple of posts from you because you asked something like what he'd expect to happen next if the leaving of the EU actually happened. That's because it reminded me of something I've also been meaning to ask, which is the same thing basically reversed :

 

To the remainers here : if this leave decision is "walked back", as America's Skull and Bones Kerry suggested could be possible recently, how do any of you plan on reforming the EU? We've heard that leavers haven't got a fucking clue basically, but the idea from remainers was that it was worth staying in the EU and trying to reform it.

 

So how do any of you remainers plan on reforming the EU if we eventually remain?

[lifetime fan]

As we always would be at this point.

 

Not quite the same rhetoric of a few weeks ago now though is it?

 

 

http://internal.uk.mobile.reuters.com/article/idUKKCN0Z119I

I'll remember to tell the bird you're happy with the current situation.

 

When she's been made redundant 6 days after the referendum as a direct result of the out vote.

 

Less than 6 weeks before the wedding.

 

She'll be made up for you.

[lifetime fan]

Given Liam Fox's list of transgressions on his Wikipedia page how deluded does he have to be to think that he can actually bid to become PM?

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liam_Fox#Expenses

I can't wait to go for a beer with my ol fella and ask him his opinion on Fox as PM.

[njackets]

One immediate benefit of the Brexit vote has been witnessing the howls of righteous indignation of the hard left on here and throughout the country. It is truly something to behold and savour. Especially SD - mate, you are the gift who keeps on giving.

 

Let me point out an irony that is completely oblivious to all you liberals and lefties - this is your own fault. You brought this on yourselves.

 

There can be no doubt that the biggest reason people voted for Brexit is uncontrolled immigration to this country and that people wanted this country to once again have full control over who comes into the country. Now, you can argue as much as you want about how non-EU immigration is as high as EU immigration but that doesn't change the reality of people's feelings.

 

I am 48 years old and I cannot remember a time in my adult life not hearing the standard response from the left in this country to concerns about immigration being the insult that anyone holding those concerns were racist. The response from the right was silence - no-one challenged the view. Without anyone to challenge the view the immigration concerns=racism, the view of the left became the norm. It therefore became the position of right-thinking that one could not challenge immigration.

 

Whether you agree or not - clearly not - for a very long time communities up and down the country have had concerns and worries about high levels of immigration affecting their lives. Whenever these concerns have been expressed they have been shouted down as being racist, prejudiced, ignorant and fascist. Constantly, by people such as the hard left on here. The thing is, despite your shouting those concerns and worries didn't go away. In fact, they kept building up.

 

Labour and Conservative had, possibly until the arrival of Corbyn as leader, morphed into one political entity. They all looked and sounded the same. Each proclaiming that they stood for ordinary people, hard-working people, fairness, decency and all that bollocks. It got to the point where whether you voted left or right ordinary people felt that they were pretty much getting the same thing. And that same thing was that the concerns of those aforementioned communities up and down the country were universally ignored.

 

Along comes the referendum which for the first time in a very long time gave every voice in the country equal volume. Those communities who have been labelled as racist by those such as the right-thinking holier-than-though crowd on this forum, suddenly had an opportunity to make their concerns felt. So they did - they voted to leave the EU and to take full control of immigration policy.

 

I haven't read every post in this thread but from the flavour I have picked up, there is not a single ounce of soul-searching going on with any of the hard left. You STILL shout that those who voted leave are racist, fascist scum.

 

Well, I've got news for you; you lost the argument and Brexit happened because of YOU. I don't expect any of you to accept that and I fully expect to be abused for expressing this opinion because that's what the hard left do - insult anyone who disagrees with them. In other words; you're fascists. Well, with every insult that get's thrown at me and other Brexit voters, I laugh just that little bit louder because, as I say, it's YOUR own fault. The chickens have most definitely come home to roost.

 

 

By the way, a similar thing is happening with Corbyn and his failed leadership. His supporters might claim that he has the support of the vast majority of the membership but that will make not a jot of difference when Labour are annihilated at the general election. This is why the PLP voted no-confidence in him, they know that there is not a cat in hell's chance of the wider electorate voting for him. They can pretty much all see complete electoral failure. However, his supporters in the hard left refuse to even consider this and so they insist that all is rosy. They will probably carry on supporting him even after a general election disaster. Ironically the labour votes you will lose will most likely go to UKIP.

 

The hard left are the gift that keep on giving.

 

Now, back to the laughter...

Spot on!

[kalasoma]

I remember a couple of posts from you because you asked something like what he'd expect to happen next if the leaving of the EU actually happened. That's because it reminded me of something I've also been meaning to ask, which is the same thing basically reversed :

 

To the remainers here : if this leave decision is "walked back", as America's Skull and Bones Kerry suggested could be possible recently, how do any of you plan on reforming the EU? We've heard that leavers haven't got a fucking clue basically, but the idea from remainers was that it was worth staying in the EU and trying to reform it.

 

So how do any of you remainers plan on reforming the EU if we eventually remain?

 

My posts were: now that leavers had won, what benefits they felt they would receive from controlling immigration, and, controlling who came into the country?

[Red Phoenix]

My posts were: now that leavers had won, what benefits they felt they would receive from controlling immigration, and, controlling who came into the country?

 

Didn't realise the questions were still based on immigration, sorry. Thought you meant things in general. You asked "what are the benefits and what happens next?" Which made me wonder what the remainers had planned next if we remained.

[kalasoma]

Didn't realise the questions were still based on immigration, sorry. Thought you meant things in general. You asked "what are the benefits and what happens next?" Which made me wonder what the remainers had planned next if we remained.

 

No worries. No I had posed a specific question because the poster had specifically claimed that "uncontrolled immigration" was the main reason for people voting Leave.

[cloggypop]

 

 

Just because i'm paranoid doesnt mean they havent got it in for me.

 

Similary like the steel sutuation. You have a surplus of steel in europe because some eu companies have got so big and efficient at making steel it makes steel so cheap and plentiful. Steel works like port talbot cant sell their steal or no one orders from them then it shuts down.

 

 

The UK blocked the EU from helping.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/apr/12/sajid-javid-uk-blocked-higher-eu-steel-tariffs-fearing-shoe-price-rises

[kalasoma]

Didn't realise the questions were still based on immigration, sorry. Thought you meant things in general. You asked "what are the benefits and what happens next?" Which made me wonder what the remainers had planned next if we remained.

 

To answer the question about what the plan would have been had we remained. I don't know. But I was hoping to find out. I would certainly liked to have seen an attempt at trying to correct what wasn't working by being in the EU.

 

What I would have liked was to address the issues that the leavers were concerned about while still being in the EU (well we still are for the time being). Are the issues mainly about immigration preventing British people from getting jobs, housing and accessing healthcare and education, then how does leaving the EU solve that? I don't think "controlling immigration" suddenly creates new jobs, new housing or improves healthcare or provides better schools and education.

 

How does leaving the EU prevent crime in the UK? I certainly don't think that an immigrant committing a crime is any different to a British person committing a crime nor do I think the impact that has on victims and their families is any different.