McParland and Borrell sacked?

[LFC64]

I honestly can't see why the focus of the discussion has focused so much on whether we're getting enough lads through the academy or not, because I don't think that has anything to do with them getting the axe.

 

There's a lad who posts on Reddit who's part of the academy coaching setup who says that he was approached about being a part of Man City's new American team for 4x what he earns at LFC a month or two ago.  Then another person who has a relative in the academy (though his credentials are possibly fraudulent) says that Borrell and McParland were quietly feeling people out about moving with them there.  Put that together with the City ITK who says that he's heard whispers that Borrell/McParland's departure has some sort of connection to City ... well, to me, the tea leaves read like this has nothing to do with Rodgers "exerting control" or the owners not seeing enough players through the academy or any of that.  It could just be that they were offered another job for a lot more money and by the simple act of discussing the job, were in breach of contract.

 

I mean, this could all be a load of internet bollocks, but something about it says to me that there's some fire there behind all the smoke.  I doubt we'll ever know (unless McParland's next job is running the NYCFC's academy or something) but it's my guess that there's something there.  I can't see them being sacked based on performance, if that's true then Rodgers has made a big mistake IMO given where the academy is now compared to 4 years ago when they took over.

 

Neither can I. This has to be something other than performance related. 

[Rotpeter]

The problem with bringing players through is from ages 18 to 21. We have no strategy for stretching players to their full potential during those ages. Benitez pointed it our years ago and we've talked and talked and done the square root of fuck all apart from arrange some shit loans to lower league team benches. The academy is up to 18yrs old, so that particular problem isn't there. It's from the reserves onwards and that is under Rodgers' control.

 

Tom Ince showed how you maximize your development post academy. Leave Liverpool.

[Pidge]

Fuck me, take a break or something if you're getting that wound up by a simple discussion and analysis of the situation. I haven't mentioned the coaching itself (Borrell has always done well on that side, but McParland is removed from that in my understanding), but have been looking at the management of these players on a wider scale. What is their progression? Where are they going?

 

I haven't seen a single post suggesting the production of "great young players" was anything other than "fanciful", in fact I specifically stated that producing a high number of LFC players was "nigh on impossible", but we aren't even getting players to an acceptable professional level.

 

Also, I stated that we have produced good young talents (pro-coaching) and have actively defended the players continuously when others cast judgement (because I think they've got talent and opportunity), but there's more needed to push them beyond that level. Which is where you look to the academy senior management to be actively planning for these kids' futures. I don't see that enough when I look at Sama, Morgan or Adorjan. Like I said, pretty clearly, these are minor concerns. But it is a very real issue.

 

I've always been an advocate of an early loan to give players a sense of perspective. Morgan goes away to League 2 and doesn't make an impression? So what, it's experience, it's a lesson. You have to do all you can to build on that, not just look past him to Sinclair, because you'll be doing is setting up another player to fail when it comes down to it. League 2 is a great league for young, athletic defenders to get some game time and most teams can't afford depth so why can't a player get down there for a month here and there. If Joe Rafferty can play down there at 19, Sama woud've been fine and then he knows he's better than that and, more importantly, scouts from better leagues know it too.

 

I think you're overstating how critical people are being when, on the whole, this situation is just bringing concerns into sharper focus.

[Bobby Hundreds]

Hope this has nothing to do with operation yewtree.

[The Guest]

You got 2 rep points for that...fucking what?

You're right, Wisdom is boss, my bad. He'd probably walk into the Man City and Arsenal teams.

I don't completely disagree with a lot of what you said. I dont think he will ever be good enough to be a starter for us. He is only 20 though and there aren't many centre backs standing out anywhere at that age. Plenty of the good ones don't start showing it until they are 23. He's is a bit of a strange one to pick on though. You were having a pop at him and using the fiction that he'd been left out of the U21's to back your argument up. He hadn't, he was banned and is still the captain. I was just pointing that out.

[Dr Nowt]

Just re-reading Rodgers' comments about the kids after the Oldham defeat in January, they seemed at the time related to much more than that game in isolation. That perhaps got a little lost in the blame game over the defeat and point scoring regards him supposedly deflecting blame, but they did strike of him not being convinced the Academy was producing men, particularly in relation to mentality:

“You looked at us and some of our young players and Oldham was a rude awakening. Some have not had that experience of going to the Championship or League One on loan and doing the dirty work,” he added.

“There are certain question marks about their character and I don’t think that’s just over this period. It’s something which goes beyond that. It’s something I am finding out about.

“Being young doesn’t exempt them from criticism. I support them completely and I’m a manager who gives them a chance, but I also believe you can’t be too nice to young players as well, especially the modern player.

“If you’re a young player here who’s going to get a chance you have to step up to those demands. There’s no hiding place at a club like Liverpool, if you are given the chance you have to deliver, and if you don’t you are out.”

For years it's been amazing how our kids are allowed to stall, while the colossal gap from youth team to playing for Liverpool's first team hasn't been sought to be bridged via loans elsewhere as a matter of course in a markedly more planned and slick fashion.

Tom Ince is the obvious example where at the very least you get a pro footballer, many of the others who stayed when he left can barely claim even that at the moment. Kudos to him for the move, but maybe having a successful footballer for a Dad helped in giving him the right mentality and realism about what it takes to achieve a career, and if he hadn't got his tools and walked he'd have rusted during years you never ever get back.

Rodgers has mentioned a lot, especially recently, about these players needing to go on loan at the right age as while not being expected to be ready at 18, by 21 they are. Perhaps there's a disconnect between those who feel the youth players are best retained and coached at The Academy - as it doesn't seem to have been accepted policy there before in the way he apparently wants it to be - and those like Rodgers who feel they need to go out and learn their trade actually playing football, away from the safety of the club's womb.

If that's the case, it certainly makes a lot of sense personally. Pointless exercise training young people and then never letting them off the lead at senior level somewhere, just because they're inevitably not good enough yet to be senior for us. Would be madness in any industry that.

[Wicket]

A couple of people have mentioned the loaning out of players and it appears that these 2 were also responsible for where players went out to

 

It's quite telling that most of our players went out to league 1 or 2 clubs, occasionally the championship like Wisdom has. Are we not producing the players or are we selling our lads short - I think its a mixture of both but 2 of our brighter prospects, Coady and Texeira went to Sheff Utd and Brentford, the latter came back cos he couldnt get in their team and i dont think Coady has really set the world alight either but he's playing in a crap team.

 

i dont suppose its beyond the realms of possibility that the club has woken up and started to realise that they aren't seeing a huge amount of results for the outlay, if we were we wouldnt need to fork out £7m on someone like Ilori who doesnt appear to be anywhere near the first team yet.

[Paulie Dangerously]

We've not produced a serious first teamer in a decade. Change was due

 

Inb4 'b.. B...foreigners blocke. Their path! What about super Jay??'

[red6]

FSG make dogs who chase their own tails  seem more coherent than they are. First they declare they want to spread authority around rather than leave the manager to call all the shots. Then Rodgers refuses to have a DoF. Then he brings in his own men at every level. Now Borrell, who probably irked him by pointing out he was a better tiki-taka man, gets the heave-ho. So we're back to having a manager who calls all the shots. Once more into the Delorean, dear friends, once more! 

 

yea cool story

 

We are 2nd in the league and for a team in transition that is brilliant. In 12-18 months FSG and our manager have cleared out some utter shite and brought in some very good young players.

 

They are doing a shit job eh?

[Babb'sBurstNad]

We're always in transition.

[Rotpeter]

I think you're overstating how critical people are being when, on the whole, this situation is just bringing concerns into sharper focus.

Right, but the focus is on the academy. The academy's role is not to produce first team players. It's to produce players who are ready to make the step up to reserve team football. Their focus is primarily skill and technique. Hardening, physically and mentally and teaching those the application of the skills in a properly competitive context is the responsibility of the people who manage the players from 18 upwards.

 

That's not Borrell, it's not Macparland. Segura created an end to end plan which covered every training session from when a kid joins all the way through to leaving the academy. What do the people who manage 18-21 have? Some random loans to other people's benches.

[Rotpeter]

We're always in transition.

And rather than try and address the hard problem, i.e. 18-21, we mess around with stuff that is better developed but easier to dick around with.

[red6]

I think this transition is a little bit more obvious than the past. We have had to replace carra & pepe and we cant build a team around gerrard anymore

 

Also the fact we have a new manager who plays a different way to the ones in the past (houllier, benitez & hodgson were defensive minded. Kenny wasnt here long enough)

 

The mindset of players is having to change from going out not to lose to going out trying to win. Some of the ones we had in the past were just not capable of changing and they had to go.

 

We have addressed the first and are still doing so. They are making a damn good job of it to.

 

If the academy isnt producing players then it should be looked at. Rodgers should be given total backing from top to bottom...he is proving that he knows what he is doing, he has been a youth coach so knows how players should be developing.

[Rotpeter]

The owners are probably casting envious eyes at Southamton's academy and questioning why our academy (which cost millions a year to run) isn't doing the same.

That would be ironic, given that we hired and then fired the southampton academy guy years ago.

[Pidge]

Right, but the focus is on the academy. The academy's role is not to produce first team players. It's to produce players who are ready to make the step up to reserve team football. Their focus is primarily skill and technique. Hardening, physically and mentally and teaching those the application of the skills in a properly competitive context is the responsibility of the people who manage the players from 18 upwards.

 

That's not Borrell, it's not Macparland. Segura created an end to end plan which covered every training session from when a kid joins all the way through to leaving the academy. What do the people who manage 18-21 have? Some random loans to other people's benches.

 

The academy incorporates the U21s.

 

http://www.liverpoolfc.com/news/latest-news/145466-path-works-between-kirkby-and-melwood

[Gym Beglin]

Yes. Inglethorpe works really carefully with the players now. It's more like a bespoke finishing school for the best prospects. I don't where the idea comes from about us just concentrating on beating the likes of Boro.

Inglethorpe's not been sacked though.

 

I can't really comment on how he's doing because it's early days for him, but if your finishing school claim is true then this time next season I'd expect to see this crop of players really pushing on, or being shown the door.

 

Of course, I'm more than patient enough with the likes of Rossiter, Brannagan, and all those lads under 20 years old, but it's those reaching their 20th birthday and above that we have to make a hard decision on and do it a lot sooner than we have been doing.

 

We've got Sama, Robinson, Wisdom, Ward, Flannagan, Sokolik, Adorjan, Coady, Roddan, Texeira, Bijev, Mukendi, Ngoo, and Suso who will all be 21 by this time next year. We're talking about proper contracts at this point, and there's only really two names I'd be interested in keeping and that's Coady and Suso, even then, it's on faith as opposed to they've proven anything substantial.

 

Suso is doing well in Spain, granted, but if he wasn't on our books would be interested in signing him? A few assists for Almeria, good stuff, but by the same token Aspas was much more impressive in Spain last year for an equally small club as well.

[Babb'sBurstNad]

I think this transition is a little bit more obvious than the past. We have had to replace carra & pepe and we cant build a team around gerrard anymore

 

Also the fact we have a new manager who plays a different way to the ones in the past (houllier, benitez & hodgson were defensive minded. Kenny wasnt here long enough)

 

The mindset of players is having to change from going out not to lose to going out trying to win. Some of the ones we had in the past were just not capable of changing and they had to go.

 

We have addressed the first and are still doing so. They are making a damn good job of it to.

 

If the academy isnt producing players then it should be looked at. Rodgers should be given total backing from top to bottom...he is proving that he knows what he is doing, he has been a youth coach so knows how players should be developing.

 

I get what you're saying, but I just don't believe we're in much more of a transition than we've been before.

 

I like the idea of backing the manager, but don't you think that backing a manager to change things that would ordinarily fall outside of his remit is asking for further transition when he goes, which is inevitable with all managers.

 

The idea of the DoF/Technical Director position was to avoid individual managers shaping too much outside of the first team, so that the instability and continual cycle of change could be broken.

 

I like Rodgers, but i really hope this whole story isn't centred on some kind of power struggle within the club as the rumours will inevitably paint it, as that tends to end badly.

[Bobby Hundreds]

It is some what hard to give a fuck. The cost of these academy's running them paying the wages of staff and young players and at the end getting fuck all back its cheaper to just pilfer other clubs rising stars. Tired of these players who have done fuck all having top end sports cars because I'm jealous mainly but mostly because they haven't done fuck all to earn it yet.

[Rotpeter]

The academy incorporates the U21s.

 

http://www.liverpoolfc.com/news/latest-news/145466-path-works-between-kirkby-and-melwood

Interesting, seems we've been dicking around with it for a while.

[red6]

I get what you're saying, but I just don't believe we're in much more of a transition than we've been before.

 

I like the idea of backing the manager, but don't you think that backing a manager to change things that would ordinarily fall outside of his remit is asking for further transition when he goes, which is inevitable with all managers.

 

The idea of the DoF/Technical Director position was to avoid individual managers shaping too much outside of the first team, so that the instability and continual cycle of change could be broken.

 

I like Rodgers, but i really hope this whole story isn't centred on some kind of power struggle within the club as the rumours will inevitably paint it, as that tends to end badly.

 

Yea i hope its not a power struggle issue. I hope Rodgers isnt trying to be overly controlling in every department but i don't think he is.

 

I see your point about what we do if Rodgers goes but i don't see that anytime soon. Maybe i just have too much faith in him but i think he is a brilliant manager and i think he will win the league for Liverpool sooner than most think.

 

He needs to be able to shape things out of the first team because his style and system needs to be used through the whole club from top to bottom. The u16's should be playing exactly like the first team because that's the only way we will really get young players into the first 11.

 

I think Rodgers time as youth coach for chelsea is another reason why he should be given more control, he has had experience in developing kids before.

[Joey8FrogsLegs]

I think we've had some decent prospects the last 5 years and none of them seem to be able to take the final step. I also fear Wisdom, Robinson and Kelly will never make it, Even if in Kellys case injuries is maybe the main reason. Coady has been highly rated, now he can't even get in the team at Sheffield U.

 

We've got Ibe, Rossiter, Smith, McLoughlin, Yesil, Sinclair, Wilson and probably others I Forgot who seem to have a lot of potential. If our setup is not able to bring top players through something needs to be done now. And hopefully this is a step in the right direction.

 

Probably nice and knowledgeable blokes McParland and Borrell, but as we don't have city or chelsea money we need to be not just good but excellent in developing young players if we are to get back where we belong.

[gkmacca]

yea cool story

 

We are 2nd in the league and for a team in transition that is brilliant. In 12-18 months FSG and our manager have cleared out some utter shite and brought in some very good young players.

 

They are doing a shit job eh?

 

 

Nurse, he's out again.

[xerxes]

This is a difficult one to read.

 

A mid season change makes little sense operationally.

 

Has Ayre got wind that they are talking to another club and sacked them in order that they cannot take talent with them?

[Major Tom]

This is a difficult one to read.A mid season change makes little sense operationally.Has Ayre got wind that they are talking to another club and sacked them in order that they cannot take talent with them?

How does sacking them stop them from taking people with them?

[Fugitive]

This is a difficult one to read.

 

A mid season change makes little sense operationally.

 

Has Ayre got wind that they are talking to another club and sacked them in order that they cannot take talent with them?

 

Heard a whisper this afternoon that City have been sniffing about.