UKIP couple have foster children removed from care

[RedRazor]

Are you UKIP, raze?

 

The thought of Farage ever achieving any position of power makes my bowels loosen. Although they have a full manifesto they are essentially a single issue protest party.

 

That would be a 'No' then.

 

They have been clever in appealing to voters on issues of great concern to many.

[Guest Numero Veinticinco]

I don't have a big problem with UKIP personally. I mean, I'm the total opposite of them from a political stand point, but they're actually q political party, with their own views.

[Section_31]

It does annoy me how all discussion of immigration often descends into accusations of racism.

 

The impact of eastern European migration differs depending on your place in society, and indeed so does your view of immigration in general and 'multiculturalism'.

 

I imagine a brickie who's seen his wages halve in 10 years won't like being told how good immigration is for the country.

 

I also don't think people fully appreciate the impact of it. The majority of those coming in were doing low skilled jobs, but in return received NHS treatment and education for their children, I know half a dozen teachers who've had foreign children literally just dumped in their class, with no knowledge of English usually, and been told to just 'get them through their GCSEs', with no support.

 

I seem to remember that Ireland and the UK were the only countries which placed no restrictions on migration, and it's no coincidence that both economies were reliant on the housing sector and construction - i.e something which needed a supply of cheap labour.

 

What then followed was the mass character assassination of the English working class, these people were not needed because they were slave labour, they were needed because our workforce was bone idle.

 

When in actual fact nobody ever seemed to mention the fact that someone leaving benefits to go and work in a warehouse in England could actually be losing money in doing so when you factor in council tax and housing benefit, while a Polish worker coming here in 2004 - even on minimum wage - would be earning at least 850 a month, while the average wage in Poland was about 150 a month - so it's like someone here going to Poland and getting eight grand a month to pick cabbages. Hardly a fair comparison, is it?

[xerxes]

Rotherham Council’s actions play into UKIP’s hands- and UKIP know it.

 

Few British people support political, financial and commercial union with Europe. Most support what amounts to the original idea of a Common Market, but that is no longer what the EU is about. UKIP tap into the views of a significant minority in decoupling from Europe altogether, and many in being broadly Euro-sceptic.

 

The distinction between wanting immigration curtailed and being racist is rarely explored. The people who have most to gain from immigration are the rich- it offers cheap labour and oven ready skills. The people who have the most to lose are the poor and recent immigrants who see scant resources stretched further to their detriment.

 

It is a big mistake to see immigration in racial terms, although there are those who will exploit immigration simply because they either don’t like people who are not like themselves or are suspicious of the effects of economic migration on the indigenous population.

 

It is true that hitherto UKIP has seemed like the respectable wing of the Monster Raving Looney Party. But make no mistake, if the Tories and Labour do not get to grips with popular unease on Europe and immigration, UKIP have the potential to make progress.

[Stu Monty]

That picture of Farange all smashed up will never not be funny.

[melons]

Why? Please explain.

 

If the cap is 50,000 per year there will not be many "cheap" workers coming. These will be doctors, nurses, pharmacists, IT specialists, scientists or other skilled professionals. All trained at the expense of a relatively poor economy to our benefit. Wouldn't it be better if they stayed at home and helped their own country develop?

 

Why? I don't even think that's worthy of a response? Surely you're being pedantic?

 

It would totally be to their own countries benefit to stay there, i never said it wouldn't. If you believe that we should only accept the cream of the crop.

 

Your logic appears to be that we should all get rid of our burglar alarms so that it is easier for the burglar to break in because if they are determined to break the law they are going to find a way. But we can put in better cameras so we can watch it in HD. My logic is to make it as difficult as possible so they don't even try.

 

Scaremongering? You are right that we have problem people here already. That does not justify us opening the doors to allow someone elses problem to become our problem.

 

Illegal immigrants are exploited because they are illegal immigrants. If they weren't illegal immigrants then they wouldn't get exploited. They made the choice - tough if they don't like it. And to a lot of them this is the promised land.

 

Links to policies I have already read and a definition of the word prejudice that I didn't need. What is your point? Which aspect of which policy do you object to?

 

You and i have differing views on how much people will persevere, and that i also feel the deterrent can be so strong it will prevent people in genuine need.

 

They are illegal for a reason, they couldn't be here legally.

 

I object to inequality. Simple really.

 

We clearly have polar views on this, i'm not likely to change my mind. I also look forward to seeing more information coming out over time as to the genuine reason of the children being removed.

[Fowlers God]

I'm not looking at it like that, i suppose. I'm looking at it as a parent and would i want my children placed in a care environment that doesn't promote equality.

I think you have more to worry about if your children are being put into care-

 

Which is my point really. Children are put into care for their safe keeping, whether its physical, social or mental well being. We cannot judge on a couples political views to safegaurd a child. I bet if this couple where Muslim and their faith was the motivation behind it their would be outrage.

[Phoenix]

UKIP is full of the usual right wing bigots.

[Section_31]

 

 

[RedRazor]

Why? I don't even think that's worthy of a response? Surely you're being pedantic?

 

It would totally be to their own countries benefit to stay there, i never said it wouldn't. If you believe that we should only accept the cream of the crop.

 

You and i have differing views on how much people will persevere, and that i also feel the deterrent can be so strong it will prevent people in genuine need.

 

They are illegal for a reason, they couldn't be here legally.

 

I object to inequality. Simple really.

 

We clearly have polar views on this, i'm not likely to change my mind. I also look forward to seeing more information coming out over time as to the genuine reason of the children being removed.

 

We are a country of 60 million people, there are billions of people in the world who have a standard of living lower than that in the UK. In your simplistic, and unrealistic, idealism you propose that we solve the problem by letting them all come here if they want to. Good luck with that but it won't be getting my vote.

 

Please do not attempt to gain the moral high ground with statements such as "I object to inequality" implying that I don't.

 

Clearly the reasons given by the woman who made the decision are not enough for you. Please feel free to start your own consipracy theory.

[melons]

I think you have more to worry about if your children are being put into care-

 

Which is my point really. Children are put into care for their safe keeping, whether its physical, social or mental well being. We cannot judge on a couples political views to safegaurd a child.

 

Try reading my first post in the depression thread again. And yes i would still massively kick off. Children are always put into care for those reasons? And those reasons can be picked up after a one off visit can't they? You would not believe the puppeteering act social fucking services can have a parent playing in order to get their children back, it's genuinely them there pulling the strings and you dancing to whatever tune they want. You do it too, you do it because you'd do anything to have your children back home. It's emotional blackmail and they get away with it.

 

I'll be honest - i simply wanted to tell you to get fucked with that naive sentence.

 

Personal experience if you can be arsed reading:

Warning! The following content is NOT WORK SAFE. Click the Show button to reveal.

A classic line in my case before we went to case conference was the social worker stating " the other agencies will vote to place the kids on the register because we're social services and they'll do what we tell them to do." Clearly a level of arrogance is needed for the job, but fuck me... Not only that, when they realised my HV, school, and CPN were going to vote against their proposal they drafted in others who are able to vote - people who had never had any contact with me or my family but were able to sit around a table and agree with social services. Non of this ever gets out, all of this is confidential other then a parent sharing their story. Sadly the school didn't turn up and it was 4:3 in their favour so my 2 younger kids (1&2), not the older (6&10) ones were placed on the register and had my ex not returned to the family home to care for the kids and me booted (as i was never to be allowed to be alone with the kids) out they would have gone into care. I spent the next 3 months sofa surfing jumping through every hoop and over coming every obstacle they put in my way, going through every evaluation going. All of this was based on an hour long visit to my house and their view of my mental health.

 

When social services want to do something, they'll do it.

 

Mine were on the register for 3 months, we went back to case conference where only 4 people turned up and it was 2:2, I was given the opportunity to put my view point forward to the chair, i had kept a diary too and was able to point out every unprofessional comment, every missed appointment on their part, every time they had moved the boundaries in regard to my contact with the kids and so on. Pointing out i had been co-operative at every step. The chair took the decision (as they had the right too when its a locked vote) to take the kids off the register on the proviso that social services maintain contact and I continue to be co-operative. That afternoon i collected my on my own from nursery for the first time, I had 3 more visits from social services before they closed the case. Think about it, they believed the kids should have on the register for another 3 months for fear of emotional harm, yet because they didn't get that suddenly my kids are safe?

 

My kids were safe in the first place, all i needed was some sleep and the chance to recover from some severe postnatal depression.

 

We are a country of 60 million people, there are billions of people in the world who have a standard of living lower than that in the UK. In your simplistic, and unrealistic, idealism you propose that we solve the problem by letting them all come here if they want to. Good luck with that but it won't be getting my vote.

 

Please do not attempt to gain the moral high ground with statements such as "I object to inequality" implying that I don't.

 

Clearly the reasons given by the woman who made the decision are not enough for you. Please feel free to start your own consipracy theory.

 

 

Family courts are full of secrecy, you be part of or even hear some of the stories or experiences i have and tell me that it's that simple and i will tell you as i have here that i don't believe it for a second. Whether you go through the fathers for justice stories or families who have been subject to their children having care orders upon them or worse adoption there is enough evidence out there (even if it is one sided as bureaucracy keeps the rest hidden) to make a reasonably thought out theory that children's services can be a mine field full of manipulating bullies, and yes - that's just the social workers.

 

As for objecting to inequality, you waded in with questioning why i have no issue with the children being removed, and it is simply that i don't agree with their political view points and in an ideal world if the parents of said children don't then depending if those views have merit that should be enough for the children to be placed elsewhere. However, this won't be the reason, as I said previously, there is and will be more too it. There is a massive shortage of foster carers so they wouldn't have taken this decision lightly.

 

Oh and i would never run for local office let alone prime minister, so you've no worry there.

[RedRazor]

 

 

 

That first pic is really quite horrific. I hadn't realised it had been as bad an accident as that. I assume that the bare foot belongs to the pilot - did he get out OK?

[RedRazor]

Try reading my first post in the depression thread again. And yes i would still massively kick off. Children are always put into care for those reasons? And those reasons can be picked up after a one off visit can't they? You would not believe the puppeteering act social fucking services can have a parent playing in order to get their children back, it's genuinely them there pulling the strings and you dancing to whatever tune they want. You do it too, you do it because you'd do anything to have your children back home. It's emotional blackmail and they get away with it.

 

I'll be honest - i simply wanted to tell you to get fucked with that naive sentence.

 

Personal experience if you can be arsed reading:

Warning! The following content is NOT WORK SAFE. Click the Show button to reveal.

A classic line in my case before we went to case conference was the social worker stating " the other agencies will vote to place the kids on the register because we're social services and they'll do what we tell them to do." Clearly a level of arrogance is needed for the job, but fuck me... Not only that, when they realised my HV, school, and CPN were going to vote against their proposal they drafted in others who are able to vote - people who had never had any contact with me or my family but were able to sit around a table and agree with social services. Non of this ever gets out, all of this is confidential other then a parent sharing their story. Sadly the school didn't turn up and it was 4:3 in their favour so my 2 younger kids (1&2), not the older (6&10) ones were placed on the register and had my ex not returned to the family home to care for the kids and me booted (as i was never to be allowed to be alone with the kids) out they would have gone into care. I spent the next 3 months sofa surfing jumping through every hoop and over coming every obstacle they put in my way, going through every evaluation going. All of this was based on an hour long visit to my house and their view of my mental health.

 

When social services want to do something, they'll do it.

 

Mine were on the register for 3 months, we went back to case conference where only 4 people turned up and it was 2:2, I was given the opportunity to put my view point forward to the chair, i had kept a diary too and was able to point out every unprofessional comment, every missed appointment on their part, every time they had moved the boundaries in regard to my contact with the kids and so on. Pointing out i had been co-operative at every step. The chair took the decision (as they had the right too when its a locked vote) to take the kids off the register on the proviso that social services maintain contact and I continue to be co-operative. That afternoon i collected my on my own from nursery for the first time, I had 3 more visits from social services before they closed the case. Think about it, they believed the kids should have on the register for another 3 months for fear of emotional harm, yet because they didn't get that suddenly my kids are safe?

 

My kids were safe in the first place, all i needed was some sleep and the chance to recover from some severe postnatal depression.

 

 

 

 

Family courts are full of secrecy, you be part of or even hear some of the stories or experiences i have and tell me that it's that simple and i will tell you as i have here that i don't believe it for a second. Whether you go through the fathers for justice stories or families who have been subject to their children having care orders upon them or worse adoption there is enough evidence out there (even if it is one sided as bureaucracy keeps the rest hidden) to make a reasonably thought out theory that children's services can be a mine field full of manipulating bullies, and yes - that's just the social workers.

 

As for objecting to inequality, you waded in with questioning why i have no issue with the children being removed, and it is simply that i don't agree with their political view points and in an ideal world if the parents of said children don't then depending if those views have merit that should be enough for the children to be placed elsewhere. However, this won't be the reason, as I said previously, there is and will be more too it. There is a massive shortage of foster carers so they wouldn't have taken this decision lightly.

 

Oh and i would never run for local office let alone prime minister, so you've no worry there.

 

Based on your previous posts in this thread you don't like Tories, Lib Dems, Labour, UKIP and BNP. If social workers share your attitude then it is no surprise that their is a shortage of foster carers.

 

I prefer not to comment on your depression related posts and your personal experiences. What I would ask is that you consider the position of the social services in similar situations. They are damned if they do and damned if they don't. They are being asked to make a judgement call but should always be acting solely in the best interests of the children involved. If they get it wrong and fail to remove children that should be removed then the outcomes can be tragic. Shouldn't they always err on the side of caution if there is any doubt in their minds? However, I do recognise that removing children who don't need to be can also be damaging for all involved.

[L19red]

he survived and was accused of trying to kill farage but was subsequently acquitted

[RedRazor]

It does annoy me how all discussion of immigration often descends into accusations of racism.

 

The impact of eastern European migration differs depending on your place in society, and indeed so does your view of immigration in general and 'multiculturalism'.

 

I imagine a brickie who's seen his wages halve in 10 years won't like being told how good immigration is for the country.

 

I also don't think people fully appreciate the impact of it. The majority of those coming in were doing low skilled jobs, but in return received NHS treatment and education for their children, I know half a dozen teachers who've had foreign children literally just dumped in their class, with no knowledge of English usually, and been told to just 'get them through their GCSEs', with no support.

 

I seem to remember that Ireland and the UK were the only countries which placed no restrictions on migration, and it's no coincidence that both economies were reliant on the housing sector and construction - i.e something which needed a supply of cheap labour.

 

What then followed was the mass character assassination of the English working class, these people were not needed because they were slave labour, they were needed because our workforce was bone idle.

 

When in actual fact nobody ever seemed to mention the fact that someone leaving benefits to go and work in a warehouse in England could actually be losing money in doing so when you factor in council tax and housing benefit, while a Polish worker coming here in 2004 - even on minimum wage - would be earning at least 850 a month, while the average wage in Poland was about 150 a month - so it's like someone here going to Poland and getting eight grand a month to pick cabbages. Hardly a fair comparison, is it?

 

Good post.

 

Personal anecdote: My son was labouring on the Albany refurb in Old Hall Street a few years back. The contractors brought in a small team of Polish lads and got rid of half of the English labourers. After a couple of days working with these guys my son rightly forecast that he wasn't going to be there much longer as the Polish lads were super grafters. They worked tremendously hard and always had a smile on their face. They were being paid the same wage as the English lads they replaced. My son managed to get his old job back at a previous employer and a similar thing happened there also.

 

IMO the difference is that they have come over here solely to make some money and will do whatever they need to do. If they can keep their living costs as low as possible they can achieve their goals faster so they will live in caravans or 10 of them in a two up two down. It isn't too different to the days when British tradesmen were selling their wares on the continent (Auf Wiedersehn Pet?) some years ago.

 

I am sure that Portugal and Spain were also doing a lot of building work at the time hence some of the problems they have.

 

I am sure that once Germany, Holland and the like relax their rules on workers from Eastern Europe (if they haven't already) then most of them will stop coming here if they can get work closer to home.

 

Your point on benefits reflects the ridiculous position this country has got itself into. When people are not better off in work than being on benefits then the system is seriously broken.

 

Multiculturalism, I think it is a crock of idealistic bullshit. To have people ramming it down my throat at every turn pisses me off. It is supposed to be about co-existence but what happens when there is a direct conflict with established social norms? The advocates will show you their Divali lamps and polish up their "I'm a multiculturalist" badges and tell you to change the social norms. Well they can just fuck off because I don't want to eat dogs, or marry my cousin, or have ten wives, or have my daughter circumcised or forced into a marriage, I don't want to see adultresses stoned to death in the street or witness thieves having their hands cut off. When does someone stand up and stay that the social norm is just fine and your cultural beliefs and behaviours are wrong and need to change? Anyway, now that I've got that off my chest.....

[elBooth]

Somewhat random thought on all this but Red Razor, red soul and janmolby are the same person aren't they...

[RedRazor]

he survived and was accused of trying to kill farage but was subsequently acquitted

 

Were Rotherham Council involved in the trial?

[RedRazor]

Somewhat random thought on all this but Red Razor, red soul and janmolby are the same person aren't they...

 

You will have to read the Schizophrenia thread to get your answer.

[Red Soul]

You will have to read the Schizophrenia thread to get your answer.

 

Well said me!.

[RedRazor]

Well said me!.

 

:)

[Red Soul]

RedRazor makes me do bad things.

[G Richards]

 

 

 

In the second picture that is clearly a Polish Potato Picker helping him out of the wreckage.

[janmolby]

You will have to read the Schizophrenia thread to get your answer.

Did you remember to turn the alarm on when I left the house this morning RedRazor?

[RedRazor]

Did you remember to turn the alarm on when I left the house this morning RedRazor?

 

I left that for Red Soul to sort out.

[RedRazor]

In the second picture that is clearly a Polish Potato Picker helping him out of the wreckage.

 

I heard that it was actually a rag and bone man and he was asking Farage to help him get the wing onto the back of his van.