Has Rafa lost the plot?

[Section_31]

I'm off to watch Coronation Street, David's bird has been on top form of late.

[BatChainPuller]

No it isn't. Not at all. It reasonably apparent if you read this thread and many others like it.

 

Like

 

It's become the 'establishment' line.

[Dirk]

Out of those criticisms number 5 is the one that rings true and I'd like to see a more amicable set up overall.

 

As regards ditching last season's 4-2-3-1 I'm not sure. Firstly I don't know if it was Rafa's long term plan to set the team up this way, and secondly I'm convinced that he's had to alter his approach this season to date because of the Barry saga and other factors. The results justify this decision in my opinion, especially with the defence being tight again.

 

Yesterday was the closest we had been to 4-2-3-1 this season. When both Mascher and Lucas returned. Whatever we think, Rafa does not rate Alonso in this formation, he dropped him loads last season when playing it and looked to sell him. Plessis wasn't up to scratch either in the games he's played. I don't think Alonso would have played had Gerrard been fit.

 

I am not sure points hauls is the best way of measuring improvement because there is a fluctuation in how many points wins a title.The target changes year on year, whereas the team that finishes 1st is a set target, if you finish 1st you finish 1st. Therefore, I think the distance from the winner in points is a better measure of overall fitness in relation to one's rivals. Doing it that way would indicate that we have improved season on season.

 

I agree with regards to his relationships but, not with the points about how he treated Crouch or Xabi, I don't think he owes either of them anything. I do think he can be overly cautious at times and makes decisions based on this like yesterday but I don't think it's a black and white thing. We were scoring much more freely last season. I am not sure about the spreading money thinly either but Paul and I have had this discussion on numerous ocassions and I'm not sure either of us cares to revisit it, I certainly don't. I also think Skrtel has been a huge success.

Edited September 1, 2008 by Dirk

[Kevin D]

No it isn't. Not at all. It reasonably apparent if you read this thread and many others like it.

 

Like

 

You don't think accusing fellow reds of wanting to see the manager , and subsequently the team, fail is out of order? Lads who'll have spent thousands and countless time following this team and because of a few negative comments you believe they want to see something they value very highly do anything other than succed?

[Paul]

I also think Skrtel has been a huge success.

 

I just want to see him in a few more big games against the very best players and I also want to see his timing improve a bit. When I mentioned a couple who could prove their brilliance, he and Keane were the ones I had in mind (although it is conceivable that Dossena and Riera could also do so, I suppose).

[MLB]

I think we will perform a lot better this season and our form will be decent overall, but Rafa's flaws mean we will struggle to ever properly challenge under his leadership. And I say that as someone who was behind what he was trying to do this summer.

[hamstrung]

You don't think accusing fellow reds of wanting to see the manager , and subsequently the team, fail is out of order? Lads who'll have spent thousands and countless time following this team and because of a few negative comments you believe they want to see something they value very highly do anything other than succed?

 

Its nothing to do with people making the odd negative comment.

 

You're missing the point.

[Dirk]

I just want to see him in a few more big games against the very best players and I also want to see his timing improve a bit. When I mentioned a couple who could prove their brilliance, he and Keane were the ones I had in mind (although it is conceivable that Dossena and Riera could also do so, I suppose).

 

Woo, Skeet/Nick Leeson/Gayfella were speaking about Dossena last night. Woo watches loads of Serie A and he thinks he's outstanding, I think he's looked really patchy and I am not sure of him but, going on some of those crosses yesterday, I think he could be the best crosser we have at the club. Whether he settles, in my opinion, will be a case of whether he can adjust to the pace of the Premiership or not. I have my doubts but it's still very early.

[Paul]

Woo, Skeet/Nick Leeson/Gayfella were speaking about Dossena last night. Woo watches loads of Serie A and he thinks he's outstanding, I think he's looked really patchy and I am not sure of him but, going on some of those crosses yesterday, I think he could be the best crosser we have at the club. Whether he settles, in my opinion, will be a case of whether he can adjust to the pace of the Premiership or not. I have my doubts but it's still very early.

 

That's pretty much exactly my view of Dossena: early days have not been awe-inspiring, but there have been some good little glimpses; settling in will be the key (which is why I still think it was bonkers to rest him for the Liege game, even though it was only one match).

[Guest TK-421]

Yesterday was the closest we had been to 4-2-3-1 this season. When both Mascher and Lucas returned.

 

I didn't get to see the game yesterday, I hope we do go with 4-2-3-1 for most of the rest of the season with Torres and Gerrard paired back together and the team built around that. I think there will be times when playing a different formation could suit us, but in the main going with 4-2-3-1. The back four picks itself at the moment in my opinion as long as the clean sheets keep coming in.

 

That's what I'd like to see but it's looking like Keane will be played behind Torres quite often too. I think it would be a mistake to break up the Gerrard and Torres partnership, we'll see what happens.

[Paul]

I didn't get to see the game yesterday, I hope we do go with 4-2-3-1 for the rest of the season with Torres and Gerrard paired back together and the team built around that. The back four picks itself at the moment in my opinion as long as the clean sheets keep coming in.

 

Where does Robbie Keane fit into that equation?

[MLB]

Woo, Skeet/Nick Leeson/Gayfella were speaking about Dossena last night. Woo watches loads of Serie A and he thinks he's outstanding, I think he's looked really patchy and I am not sure of him but, going on some of those crosses yesterday, I think he could be the best crosser we have at the club. Whether he settles, in my opinion, will be a case of whether he can adjust to the pace of the Premiership or not. I have my doubts but it's still very early.

 

 

I reckon Dossena might be the type who'll always be prone to the odd defensive lapse, but will be very valuable going forward. I think he'd benefit from playing alongise Agger more than Skrtel though, and I think our overall play would benefit from Agger's presence right now. It's hard to drop Skrtel though because he has started the season very well, and obviously we can't drop Carra.

[bossy]

I like Dossa, I like his aggression and the sweet left foot. I think he'll be good.

 

I'd also like to see Riera, Mash, Xabi and Gerrard across the midfield. Keane and Torres up front. I hope that Agger comes back and we have Jamie and him as our main 2 central defenders. Not sure about right back till I see Degan.

 

Just watch Xabi go to Arse now..

[Kevin D]

Its nothing to do with people making the odd negative comment.

 

You're missing the point.

 

You've not answered my question. Do you not think accusing fellow reds of wanting to see us fail is out of order? You're basically saying they're not real fans.

[stringvest]

I didn't get to see the game yesterday, I hope we do go with 4-2-3-1 for most of the rest of the season with Torres and Gerrard paired back together and the team built around that. I think there will be times when playing a different formation could suit us, but in the main going with 4-2-3-1. The back four picks itself at the moment in my opinion as long as the clean sheets keep coming in.

 

That's what I'd like to see but it's looking like Keane will be played behind Torres quite often too. I think it would be a mistake to break up the Gerrard and Torres partnership, we'll see what happens.

 

I think that Keane will be played behind Torres, whether that will prove to be a good or bad thing I guess we won't know until the end of the season.

[Guest TK-421]

Where does Robbie Keane fit into that equation?

 

Either side of Gerrard but I see those two as pretty much interchangeable, I just think Gerrard is a better player than Keane so I'd play him more in the centre.

[stringvest]

Paul, just to say that your wordy post was excellent imo, and almost all of your opinions on Rafa chime with mine. Great stuff.

[Moo]

Deep breath, everyone (this should have been an article for Dave rather than a post).

 

I know this is a highly emotive subject, but it shouldn't be beyond fellow Reds to debate it without resorting to abuse. Aside from loving the club, the universal theme amongst almost everyone on this issue is that they like Rafa as a bloke. Why then can't people recognise that those Reds who are critical of his management are not grinding some personal axe? There isn't a Red alive who doesn't love the bloke for Istanbul; does anyone think it's possible to feel that way but also make an unfair assessment of his overall record in charge? I don't. Let's cut out the abuse eh, boys?

 

 

Maybe I've read it wrong I dunno but that opening paragraph is so wrong Paul.

 

There are plenty of Reds, on here and in 'real life' who don't love Rafa for Istanbul - how often have we heard the line that he got "lucky with the half time subs/chaos". People can be very, very grudging in their praise.

There's plenty who do seem to have a personal axe to grind, attributing the most ridiculous things to the manager and creating wild speculation then treating it as fact.

There's some who can't hide their dislike for him as a man, even referring to him as snide and accuse him of "turning into Houllier".

So yes, I can easily believe that many Liverpool supporters exist who do make an unfair assessment of his management, and that's what some of us find hard to stomach.

Not that you are one of those but I am amazed you can't see it in others.

 

(Again if I have read that paragraph wrong I sincerely apologise)

[Moo]

You've not answered my question. Do you not think accusing fellow reds of wanting to see us fail is out of order? You're basically saying they're not real fans.

 

I've seen and heard fellow fans admit they wanted us to lose and not qualify for the CL when GH was in charge so he'd get the sack.

It's not hard to imagine some people saying similar at some point (soon?) in RB's reign.

[hamstrung]

You've not answered my question. Do you not think accusing fellow reds of wanting to see us fail is out of order? You're basically saying they're not real fans.

 

No, I don't.

 

Stop getting in tiz over nothing. I am talking about a handful of jerkoffs on a message board.

[WaltonRed]

I wanted GH out with a passion towards the end but Ive never ever wanted us to lose.

 

As for Skrtel I think you have to say he's been a success and he'll be a Liverpool player for a long time.

 

IF and its a big IF Rafa goes at the end of the season the next manager wont be lookinh at buying any centre halves thats for sure.

[Kevin D]

I've seen and heard fellow fans admit they wanted us to lose and not qualify for the CL when GH was in charge so he'd get the sack.

It's not hard to imagine some people saying similar at some point (soon?) in RB's reign.

 

That was when he was well beyond the point of no return. Rafa still has the backing of the great majority. Even those who doubt whether he'll win the league are not calling for him to be sacked.

[Paul]

Maybe I've read it wrong I dunno but that opening paragraph is so wrong Paul.

 

There are plenty of Reds, on here and in 'real life' who don't love Rafa for Istanbul - how often have we heard the line that he got "lucky with the half time subs/chaos". People can be very, very grudging in their praise.

There's plenty who do seem to have a personal axe to grind, attributing the most ridiculous things to the manager and creating wild speculation then treating it as fact.

There's some who can't hide their dislike for him as a man, even referring to him as snide and accuse him of "turning into Houllier".

So yes, I can easily believe that many Liverpool supporters exist who do make an unfair assessment of his management, and that's what some of us find hard to stomach.

Not that you are one of those but I am amazed you can't see it in others.

 

(Again if I have read that paragraph wrong I sincerely apologise)

 

I meant it as you read it mate. However, if you see these other assessments as unfair and the likes of mine as otherwise, then why not just address the people you feel you can have a debate with and ignore the rest? That's basically what I do all the time on here, these days. Maybe that's why I'm unaware of these unfair anti-Rafa fans: I tend to ignore at least 75% of what's on here these days.

[RoboRiise]

It's like every season we start from scratch and make the same old mistakes.

 

Nail on head.

 

You know how they say goldfish have a memory of about 20 seconds? I reckon Rafa's might be about 364 days.

[Moo]

That was when he was well beyond the point of no return. Rafa still has the backing of the great majority. Even those who doubt whether he'll win the league are not calling for him to be sacked.

 

 

Subjective.

 

The fact remains there are supporters who have willed us to lose.