Selling Kuyt

[Manny]

You're not at all old fashioned mate - and even if you are, I totally agree with you. However, humility and world class talent are not mutually exclusive qualities. Our past is littered with examples of world class players who were great men, too. However, for a contemporary example, look no further than our current number nine.

 

Good point, I'm not disputing that the two can go hand in hand. What we want are top class players with attitudes to match. The point I guess I'm trying to make is that if Kuyt carries on his form from last season and builds on his summer performances in Austria/Switzerland (and I see no reason why he can't) then he's worthy of a first team place; and what's more his character over the last few months has earned him the chance to show us he can do it.

[Jose Jones]

A valid question I suppose, albeit a rather strange way of formulating it.

 

I reckon the answer depends on if we’re keeping the same formation and then how many players we need to cover those front 4 positions. It looks like Crouch is off, so I’d have Torres and Gerrard as certainties then Babel and Kuyt who can each play wide on one side and also cover the centre forward position if Torres is injured/rested, then I think we need another two players to fill the wide positions. Yossi can cover the Gerrard position – as well as one of the wide places at a push, so I’d be buying someone who is a shit hot dribbly attacking forward to challenge Babel and Kuyt for the left and right positions.

 

Sell Pennant (£6 million), Crouch (£10 million) and Voronin (£peanuts) and we’d have £17-18 million for that player. I reckon that would be sufficient to get someone good. So we’d have 6 players - Torres, Kuyt, Babel, Yossi, Gerrard, New Player - to cover the front 4 positions. I don’t think this is excessive at all. Selling Kuyt on top of this would necessitate buying another player to fill out his positions and we’d only have the funds for this that we got from selling Kuyt. I don’t think we could get anyone as effective as Kuyt for £10 million-ish.

I’d like to see a suggestion of how we could cover these positions better if we were to sell Dirk though, if anyone (Brownie, Paul?) can come up with something.

 

NB. In event of a major injury crisis we’d still have Lucas to push into Gerrard’s position and Nemeth for a few games as the striker.

[Brownie]

A valid question I suppose, albeit a rather strange way of formulating it.

 

I reckon the answer depends on if we’re keeping the same formation and then how many players we need to cover those front 4 positions. It looks like Crouch is off, so I’d have Torres and Gerrard as certainties then Babel and Kuyt who can each play wide on one side and also cover the centre forward position if Torres is injured/rested, then I think we need another two players to fill the wide positions. Yossi can cover the Gerrard position – as well as one of the wide places at a push, so I’d be buying someone who is a shit hot dribbly attacking forward to challenge Babel and Kuyt for the left and right positions.

 

Sell Pennant (£6 million), Crouch (£10 million) and Voronin (£peanuts) and we’d have £17-18 million for that player. I reckon that would be sufficient to get someone good. So we’d have 6 players - Torres, Kuyt, Babel, Yossi, Gerrard, New Player - to cover the front 4 positions. I don’t think this is excessive at all. Selling Kuyt on top of this would necessitate buying another player to fill out his positions and we’d only have the funds for this that we got from selling Kuyt. I don’t think we could get anyone as effective as Kuyt for £10 million-ish.

I’d like to see a suggestion of how we could cover these positions better if we were to sell Dirk though, if anyone (Brownie, Paul?) can come up with something.

 

NB. In event of a major injury crisis we’d still have Lucas to push into Gerrard’s position and Nemeth for a few games as the striker.

 

It all depends on a lot of variable factors obviously and i've posted a few permutations over the last few days. I don't really like getting too specific with figures, but fuck it, here's some options (going on the premise that we have £20M plus sales to play with):

 

OUT - Crouch (£10M), Pennant (£5M), Riise (£5M), Carson (£5M), Benayoun (£4M), Voronin (£2M), Arbeloa/Finnan (£2M) and Guthrie (£3M) = £36M + £20M = £56M

 

IN - Villa (£25M), Wide Attacking Midfielder/Forward (£20M), Dossena (£7M) and Degen (FREE) = £52M

 

 

Obviously i'm not counting the Barry and Alonso deals because I wouldn't bother with that myself - if we did though it wouldn't make much difference as those deals would pretty much break even. As highlighted there, I wouldn't necessarily sell Kuyt as he'd be a good option to have competing with the New Attacking Midfielder/Forward and Babel, as well as the option of playing Villa and Gerrard in those roles too.

 

If we received a bid of £10M+ for Dirk though (say £11M) you could use that £11M you have, plus the £4M spare from those other deals to go after someone like Ashley Young for instance?

 

I know the reality is that things aren't as simple as I make out there, but it's just to illustrate what I think could be done in either scenario.

[Stu Monty]

It all depends on a lot of variable factors obviously and i've posted a few permutations over the last few days. I don't really like getting too specific with figures, but fuck it, here's some options (going on the premise that we have £20M plus sales to play with):

 

OUT - Crouch (£10M), Pennant (£5M), Riise (£5M), Carson (£5M), Benayoun (£4M), Voronin (£2M), Arbeloa/Finnan (£2M) and Guthrie (£3M) = £36M + £20M = £56M

 

IN - Villa (£25M), Wide Attacking Midfielder/Forward (£20M), Dossena (£7M) and Degen (FREE) = £52M

 

 

Obviously i'm not counting the Barry and Alonso deals because I wouldn't bother with that myself - if we did though it wouldn't make much difference as those deals would pretty much break even. As highlighted there, I wouldn't necessarily sell Kuyt as he'd be a good option to have competing with the New Attacking Midfielder/Forward and Babel, as well as the option of playing Villa and Gerrard in those roles too.

 

If we received a bid of £10M+ for Dirk though (say £11M) you could use that £11M you have, plus the £4M spare from those other deals to go after someone like Ashley Young for instance?

 

I know the reality is that things aren't as simple as I make out there, but it's just to illustrate what I think could be done in either scenario.

 

How do you sell the move to those two big players Brownie? It was something I started a thread about earlier in the week but with the current system, and with Torres being the man, players are going to know that they'll struggle for a game if they can't play in the two wider positions. Would Villa be fine as one of those? Would he want that?

 

I don't think Yossi is going anywhere either; decent enough plan though you've got there.

 

You not working tomorrow?

[Brownie]

How do you sell the move to those two big players Brownie? It was something I started a thread about earlier in the week but with the current system, and with Torres being the man, players are going to know that they'll struggle for a game if they can't play in the two wider positions. Would Villa be fine as one of those? Would he want that?

 

I don't think Yossi is going anywhere either; decent enough plan though you've got there.

 

You not working tomorrow?

 

I'd play Villa predominently in the role just behind Torres. It would mean moving Gerrard back into central midfield and maybe negating his strengths, but it wouldn't harm the team because Villa is fucking awesome and would be able to provide assists and goals whereas Gerrard would be made up to be back in his favourite position.

 

If we signed a wide attacking player, then i'd sell the move to him by telling that he's first choice as long as he creates and scores a lot of goals. Babel and Kuyt would be back up for Torres' role and both wide berths - if the new 'winger' failed to settle then they can easily come in and do a good job.

 

I think it would work - lots of different options and players who can all play in the different roles, but the biggest difference being that the quality would increase. In fact, I think on paper it's an exciting proposition. Four attacking roles with Torres, Villa, Babel, Gerrard and Kuyt as the options. Two central midfield berths with Gerrard, Mascherano, Alonso and Lucas as the options. Degen and Finnnan/Arbeloa for right back. Dossena and Aurelio/Insua for left back. Carra/Agger and Skrtel/Hyypia for centre half. Squad packed full of quality.

 

I don't think Yossi is leaving mate, but i'd sacrifice him myself - how can you tell that tomorrow is my day off?! ;-)

[Stu Monty]

I'd play Villa predominently in the role just behind Torres. It would mean moving Gerrard back into central midfield and maybe negating his strengths, but it wouldn't harm the team because Villa is fucking awesome and would be able to provide assists and goals whereas Gerrard would be made up to be back in his favourite position.

 

If we signed a wide attacking player, then i'd sell the move to him by telling that he's first choice as long as he creates and scores a lot of goals. Babel and Kuyt would be back up for Torres' role and both wide berths - if the new 'winger' failed to settle then they can easily come in and do a good job.

 

I think it would work - lots of different options and players who can all play in the different roles, but the biggest difference being that the quality would increase. In fact, I think on paper it's an exciting proposition. Four attacking roles with Torres, Villa, Babel, Gerrard and Kuyt as the options. Two central midfield berths with Gerrard, Mascherano, Alonso and Lucas as the options. Degen and Finnnan/Arbeloa for right back. Dossena and Aurelio/Insua for left back. Carra/Agger and Skrtel/Hyypia for centre half. Squad packed full of quality.

 

I don't think Yossi is leaving mate, but i'd sacrifice him myself - how can you tell that tomorrow is my day off?! ;-)

 

Sounds like a plan. I'm not sure that Gerrard in the centre is playing to his strenghts though mate; in that system it's very much a holding a covering for the full-backs role and not really an up and down the pitch role as he probably prefers.

 

It's quarter to two mate, either it's your day off or you are being pretty hardcore about defending your transfer ideas. I guessed the first. I've been on nights all week so I'm not tired. Sat here browsing and chilling to that Bon Iver album, you want to get on it mate, nice stuff.

[Brownie]

Sounds like a plan. I'm not sure that Gerrard in the centre is playing to his strenghts though mate; in that system it's very much a holding a covering for the full-backs role and not really an up and down the pitch role as he probably prefers.

 

It's quarter to two mate, either it's your day off or you are being pretty hardcore about defending your transfer ideas. I guessed the first. I've been on nights all week so I'm not tired. Sat here browsing and chilling to that Bon Iver album, you want to get on it mate, nice stuff.

 

Yeah just saw that over on t'GF. I'll probably have a look at that Johnny Foreigner album too.

 

You heard any Tokyo Police Club at all?

[Jose Jones]

It all depends on a lot of variable factors obviously and i've posted a few permutations over the last few days. I don't really like getting too specific with figures, but fuck it, here's some options (going on the premise that we have £20M plus sales to play with):

 

OUT - Crouch (£10M), Pennant (£5M), Riise (£5M), Carson (£5M), Benayoun (£4M), Voronin (£2M), Arbeloa/Finnan (£2M) and Guthrie (£3M) = £36M + £20M = £56M

 

IN - Villa (£25M), Wide Attacking Midfielder/Forward (£20M), Dossena (£7M) and Degen (FREE) = £52M

 

 

Obviously i'm not counting the Barry and Alonso deals because I wouldn't bother with that myself - if we did though it wouldn't make much difference as those deals would pretty much break even. As highlighted there, I wouldn't necessarily sell Kuyt as he'd be a good option to have competing with the New Attacking Midfielder/Forward and Babel, as well as the option of playing Villa and Gerrard in those roles too.

 

If we received a bid of £10M+ for Dirk though (say £11M) you could use that £11M you have, plus the £4M spare from those other deals to go after someone like Ashley Young for instance?

 

I know the reality is that things aren't as simple as I make out there, but it's just to illustrate what I think could be done in either scenario.

 

So we're not really selling Kuyt then? Ace.

I'd keep Yossi for the extra £4 million spare in your budget I think as well.

Swapping those two (Kuyt and Yossi) for one (Young) would leave us a bit short I think.

[Stu Monty]

Yeah just saw that over on t'GF. I'll probably have a look at that Johnny Foreigner album too.

 

You heard any Tokyo Police Club at all?

 

I recognise the name so I'd imagine I've heard a few bits on the radio and not really paid it much attention. In fact, I reckon you might have suggested them to me before at some point.

[WaltonRed]

I recognise the name so I'd imagine I've heard a few bits on the radio and not really paid it much attention. In fact, I reckon you might have suggested them to me before at some point.

 

If you dont mind me gegging in on this convo, Tokyo Police Club are ace, Your English is good is an ace tune.

[Stu Monty]

So we're not really selling Kuyt then? Ace.

I'd keep Yossi for the extra £4 million spare in your budget I think as well.

Swapping those two (Kuyt and Yossi) for one (Young) would leave us a bit short I think.

 

Yes, but have you heard of Tokyo Police Club?

 

I'm youtubing that tune now Walton Red.

[Jose Jones]

Yes, but have you heard of Tokyo Police Club?

 

I'm youtubing that tune now Walton Red.

 

I like their Nature of the Experiment song, any song with the work increments in the lyrics can’t be bad. Haven’t heard too much else I don’t think, and I’m in work at the mo so can’t really get on anything else right now. Have you got the Panics over there? Have a listen to Get Us Home MySpace.com - The Panics - AU - Rock / Alternative / Indie - www.myspace.com/thepanicsmusic - got to dig that drum intro.

[Stu Monty]

I like their Nature of the Experiment song, any song with the work increments in the lyrics can’t be bad. Haven’t heard too much else I don’t think, and I’m in work at the mo so can’t really get on anything else right now. Have you got the Panics over there? Have a listen to Get Us Home MySpace.com - The Panics - AU - Rock / Alternative / Indie - www.myspace.com/thepanicsmusic - got to dig that drum intro.

 

Its alright that Panics stuff, not too shoddy at all. I agree on Nature of the Experiment; good tune.

[Brownie]

'Citizens of Tomorrow' is their best tune I reckon (Tokyo Police Club) followed closely by 'Juno'.

[Red_Jim83]

No way, why should we sell a player who's come back into some good form...WE ARE NOT A SELLING CLUB.

[Owen]

Correct again and further to your point on the other thread Ive made the point (3tmes on this thread) that if Rafa decided to sell Kuyt then most of those would are singing his praises would be happy to see him sold and then justify the reason for his sale

 

Fuck me, Nick. You mean other people can be rational, and see both arguments for and against the vast majority of decisions and choices made? Well I never.

[RedinSweden]

If we buy Villa for 12m, we can take Barry and Young then sell the rest to cover the 12m.

 

That is a genius plan. I would rep you, but yesterdays scatternegging has left me unable to dish out rep and neg. Can we sack MON too? Sack the fuck out of him. I am not sure we'd get 12m for the rest of Villa though, unless we sold the stadium.

[Himsett]

Look at the game today...

 

Kuyt 1 - France 0

;)

[spider-neil]

sell kuyt?

 

FUCK OFF!!

[Shabado]

I can only imagine how excited we'd have been at signing him two years ago if he was half as good at the World Cup as he has been so far at the Euros.

[Guest TK-421]

He works hard but if we want to win the league he's just not good enough etc.

[Thants]

He works hard but if we want to win the league he's just not good enough etc.

 

There IS no telling some, TK. Just pity them.

[Brownie]

It's interesting to see how the dynamics of the team changed a bit when Dirk went off. He was fucking excellent with his tireless work rate, but he doesn't have the ability to beat players with pace like Robben and Van Persie do, and I think you can see the difference.

 

Please, please do not jump on me and start a fucking war, it's a valid point. Dirk is a different type of player to the likes of Robben and Van Persie and I think this game in the second half has encapsulated the point that people make when they advocate the signing of attacking wide players.

[Shabado]

The reason Robben (VP didn't offer much for me other than the goal) made such a difference was that he took pressure off the defense, which Kuyt obviously doesn't offer.

The Dutch weren't keeping the ball and Robben offered an outlet as much as anything, allowing them to get back in the game.

 

When Holland were on the front foot Kuyt offered plenty for me.

 

Edit: I reckon RVP shot was going wide if the keeper doesn't get a touch too :p

[Brownie]

The reason Robben (VP didn't offer much for me other than the goal) made such a difference was that he took pressure off the defense, which Kuyt obviously doesn't offer.

The Dutch weren't keeping the ball and Robben offered an outlet as much as anything, allowing them to get back in the game.

 

When Holland were on the front foot Kuyt offered plenty for me.

 

Edit: I reckon RVP shot was going wide if the keeper doesn't get a touch too :p

 

That's the point for me, those players stretch the defence because they are worried about the space in behind, With Dirk, he causes you problems, but it's not in the same manner. I'm not saying it isn't effective or impressive just a different style.

 

I feel that sometimes we lack that threat in behind on the right side and the player who can just change a game in an instant.