Would you vote BNP?

[Dirk]

I'm not a big fan of prejudice.

 

Me neither. Somebody who is close to me is of Arabic descent, he's as English as you or I. He went to town to watch the England Vs Turkey match, the one where Beckham skied the pen. On the train back, he was the recipient of vile abuse, calling him all the "Turks and Pakis" possible. The irony was he went to watch England. It went off, he managed to get a beer bottle and he threatened them with it and he managed to get off the train at Bebington without having a fight. Another time, somebody spat in his girlfriend's face after he'd dropped her in Birkenehead and called her a "Paki shagger", she was with their daughter.

 

I'm not having it that it's the fault of the foreigners. One, he's not foreign, he's English, two, he's not a trouble causer but because of the colour of his skin he receives dogs abuse. Is anybody telling me that it's his fault or that it's because of an inability to intergrate when he's fully assimilated? It seems, from my perspective, that there are a lot of vile, racist and narrow-minded people who like to latch onto the justification of some bombings to abuse others. They'd be vile, racist scum irrespective of the current political climate. Sorry if that offends but that's just my opinion.

[Neil G]

This thread is a perfect microcosm of the current ‘debate’ on immigration in this country. Different issues get confused and conflated, sweeping generalisations are made, assertions are put forward without any facts to back them up, and people make no effort to understand why others hold different opinions from themselves. The temperature rises until people end up hurling abuse at each other, positions are hardened and the gaps between different people and groups grow wider. There’s no real harm done here, this is just an internet forum, but this sort of exchange is going on in communities up and down the country.

 

Paul – I agree with half of your statement ‘fuck the BNP and fuck anyone who votes for them’. The BNP are a racist and fascist party, and any free election that returned a BNP government would be the last one in this country for a long time. However I don’t believe that most people who vote for them are racist. They are misinformed and often prejudiced, but they can change their minds when confronted with the facts. I know this because I’ve had friends and colleagues who’ve reconsidered their anti-immigration views once they’ve been asked to question where these views come from. Some of them had considered voting BNP as a protest. I’m not necessarily saying that anyone on this forum can be reached like that, but the very small sample of people on here aren’t automatically representative of all BNP voters nationwide.

 

What do you think, say and do when you meet someone who believes Liverpool fans were responsible for Hillsborough? (Not just you Paul, anyone on here.) Do you write them off as a brainless cunt and have nothing further to do with them? Or do you make every effort to find out why they think what they think, and then present the facts to them and ask if it’s changed their mind? I go for the latter, and I take the same approach to people who are anti-immigration and even support the BNP. I want people who vote BNP to change their views and not vote for them, and I presume you do too. Saying ‘fuck them all’ doesn’t achieve this.

 

atk – I’m not going to judge you or have a pop at you like others on here have been doing. I’m not going to try to persuade you not to vote BNP, as I’ve already agreed with you earlier in this thread that the three main parties don’t care about you. I’m not going to try and get you to accept that immigration is a good thing. I just want to find out where you get your opinions from and ask you whether you think the sources are reliable.

 

A few pages back someone likened you to a S*n reader and you took offence. Why was that? I assume it’s because you don’t want to be compared to someone who believes lies and unfounded rumours, which caused and still cause a lot of hurt and damage, and then presents them to other people as fact so that more people believe them. Is that fair enough?

 

Here are a couple of things you’ve presented as fact in this thread.

 

My question is why are there thousand's of people in the north of France trying to get to England to claim asylum.I thought that as soon as you reached a safe country you claim asylum there.If this was the case we would be the last country they reach.Yet why are they dying to get to england.As you know it's to do with the benefit's they get.

 

it's just a case of telling the government,we pay far to much tax etc and it seem's that we are in the minority(old age pensioner's struggling to make ends meat.yet these immigrant's come over and get hands out right left and centre)

 

Do you know how much money is available in benefits for immigrants, whether asylum seekers or otherwise? You’re stating it as fact that they receive generous state handouts, which is why they come here. Where have you got your information from? Is it definitely accurate? Do the sources have any kind of agenda which might mean they don’t present the full truth? If so, are there any other sources you can check which are more objective, or are at least approaching the subject from a different angle so that you can compare?

 

Do you really believe that benefits are the main reason people from other countries choose the UK as their destination, whether they’re fleeing persecution or just seeking a better standard of living? If so, why? Have you thought about other reasons and tried to work out whether they might be more valid ones?

 

You’ve also referred a couple of times to the fact that you're a taxpayer, and said that you and other taxpayers are being shafted. Does this mean that you think immigrants overall are a burden on the economy, and that if there were none you would either pay less taxes or could see more of your taxes spent on public services? Again, if you do think this, what information are you basing this view on? How reliable is it?

 

On the speedbumps issue, you have every right to be fucked off with the council for not helping you out. Maybe the bloke you know who’s standing for the BNP will get it sorted if he's elected. But aside from that, do you know why the councillor who spoke to you off the record said what he said? Did he say it was official council policy to give preferential treatment to non-whites? How much did he know about this – had he been involved in any similar cases where he’d seen this preferential treatment in action? Did you follow up his answer, or did you just take his word for it? Also, which party was he from? The BNP aren’t the only party who have racist councillors. Could it just have been an uninformed, off-the-cuff comment based on prejudice?

 

Lots of questions I know, but seriously – read them one by one, ask them to yourself and answer them honestly. If not to me and the rest of the forum, then at least to yourself.

 

I'm sure you have other reasons why you vote BNP as well as the ones you've mentioned in this thread - other posters have spoken about different problems that can be linked to immigration. I can only respond to what you've written though.

 

Like I said, I’m not having a go at you, and I don't mean to sound condescending. I just want to ask you what information you base your opinions on, and whether you’ve made every effort to check that it’s accurate and complete. I’d do the same with someone who blamed Liverpool fans for Hillsborough, and I hope you would too. If you wouldn’t, if instead you’d just tell them to fuck off and refuse to speak to them, then that’s really no different from Paul saying that all BNP voters are selfish racists and refusing to ask why they think what they think.

[mattyq]

Neil - top quality post.

Must admit my first reaction to this post was along the same line as Pauls' but i'm coming around to your point of view ie the BNP are racist cunts but not all the people who vote for them are. I reckon a lot are suffering from shit left right and centre and want to protest. Also, most are probably fairly dim but instead of being villified and driven further into the arms of those nasty little chancers they should be educated/helped and given the confidence to see that they are not as useless and marginalised as they think they are.

I realise that this is a very patronising view of a certain class of society but it's better than labeling them as mongos which their actions invite

[aws]

I'm very happy to condemn the BNP,their acolytes and everything they stand for.In fact I got arrested years ago for defending myself against one of their marchers after a demo clash in Manchester.I didn't get charged as the police saw the knife the fat fuck pulled on me.

 

But I'm not happy to simply condemn en masse the people who get pulled into voting for them because the other parties don't really offer solutions to what many people see as real problems which the liberal consensus prefers to sweep under the carpet.Desperate people reach for desperate solutions.

[sh#t waffle]

I agree that it is wrong to condemn every single person that votes for the BNP regardless of circumstance, however there does come a point where social and cultural relativism ends and individual responsibility begins. There are a lot of disenfranchised people who don't vote BNP nor hold the outmoded, reactionary and ill founded views that they espouse.

[Neil G]

Neil - top quality post.

Must admit my first reaction to this post was along the same line as Pauls' but i'm coming around to your point of view ie the BNP are racist cunts but not all the people who vote for them are. I reckon a lot are suffering from shit left right and centre and want to protest. Also, most are probably fairly dim but instead of being villified and driven further into the arms of those nasty little chancers they should be educated/helped and given the confidence to see that they are not as useless and marginalised as they think they are.

I realise that this is a very patronising view of a certain class of society but it's better than labeling them as mongos which their actions invite

 

I agree that the frustration and desperation that comes from social exclusion is definitely a factor, and no-one who hasn't experienced it has any right to dismiss its influence on people's views and actions. But I don't agree that working-class people who vote BNP do so because of a lack of intelligence. For me that’s just as big a generalisation as saying they’re mostly or completely racist. I know plenty of very intelligent people, some with university degrees, some who have well-paid and responsible jobs, who hold ill-informed and hostile views on immigration - views that they’ve clearly based on tabloid news reports, urban myths and the conventional ‘wisdom’. These people are less likely to vote BNP than people in deprived urban areas though, because they’re generally better off and have less of an axe to grind with society.

 

It’s not a lack of intelligence, it’s a lack of curiosity, and it’s not determined by a person’s level of intellect or social group – not solely anyway. I don’t know how it is determined – how any two given people of similar social background and level of education can have such varying ability and/or willingness to look beyond headlines and rumour to find out the facts for themselves. Perhaps YKI or another psychology type can offer some explanation in layman’s terms.

[Dirk]

Social conformity is a large factor in the rising to power of any extremist group. Group psychology is very different to the psychology of the individual. Good people can do horrific things. It's difficult for us to accept as we like to think that, in essence, we are decent, law abiding and big enough to go against the prevailing sentiment(s). Ever witnessed a road accident? Most pedestrians stand around looking at the crash and it's usually one person who wills to act, and call for assistance. Would you say that all those that stood around gazing are bad or fundamentally lacking in any manner?

 

That is a flimsy example in comparison to the disgusting nature of fascism. However, Milgram performed some conformity experiments about forty years ago, ones that wouldn't pass ethical clearance today. He gathered his participants and stated that they were to induce small electric shocks to a person in another room that they couldn't see. They were told that they could leave whenever they wanted to. There was a man in the room with them whilst they were performing the experiments. He was wearing a white coat and had a clip board. They were asked to gradually increase the size of the shocks.A few kept on going higher and higher, even when the person was screaming in pain. They were cajoled into continuing by the experimenter. Nothing overly untoward, just requests to continue with the treatment. Had they actually been connected to the machine, and not been actors, they would have killed them. Afterwards there were some participants who couldn't come to terms with the fact that they had, within them, the ability to do great harm to people. The point being that we defer responsibility to those in positions of power and prestige, such as politicians.

 

There have been other experiments with mock up prisons, and they had to be stopped because, even though they were experimental role play, so to speak, there was an actual social hierarchy and the guards did treat the prisoners highly unethically. It's those at the top who tend to be scum, the people below tend to follow orders due to the dynamics of group psychology. Even that is a slight generalisation.

[cochcaer]

There are a lot of disenfranchised people who don't vote BNP nor hold the outmoded, reactionary and ill founded views that they espouse.

 

It's one-policy politics and pretty much doomed to failure. The Libs got great milage out of their anti-war/Iraq stance but it looks to be running out of momentum now (think the BNP got more new councillors last night). The BNP have had surges in the past when they've tapped into social unrest but should Blair sort himself out and look to the working classes again they'll be frozen out once more.

 

Always recall my bro telling me there was a fair few on them at Heysel stirring up trouble outside the stadium. Was probably C18 knobs with flyers.

[Guest tommy tank]

Responding to Neil G.

 

Thanks for your reply Neil. am i a racist? maybe.But would a racist hate all ethnic people,Black,Jews etc.Well i don't.

There is a lad who follows Liverpool everywhere Europe,Japan, everywhere.I'm not going to mention his name but if most people on this thread go the game there is a good chance you may know him.The lad (it's hard for me to call him lad as i class him a mate) is Half Cast.He was 2 years above me at school and is somebody i am glad to call a mate.

 

I don't hate ethnic people,I hate the people who are in this country illegally, and there are hundreds of thousands of them,there the people i hate.

 

If you go to many cities in England or maybe where you live you know the one's i mean.

 

I used to be a taxi driver and many times i picked up people who worked at Relliance House in Water Street.It's where people come looking for what i call hand out's.The people tell me about how bad it is.The people who turn up looking to stay in the country,know exactly what to say and do,so they get looked after.

 

Please tell me you cannot believe that most of the people who where in the Sangatt Refuge centre in France, Where comming to England to see Buckingham Palace those people know what benefit's they get in this country.They are my problem.

 

In Bootle last week a family from Pakistan were deported back.Now i could tell the family did not deserve this.The father was a school Governor,His children you could see understood and possibly liked the western culture, payed there taxes,and just wanted a better life.Whilst keeping there identidy.I was sad when they were deported completly wrong.When there are hundred's of thousands in here illegally.

 

I vote BNP because it looks like none of the big 3 will realise this is a problem if they where in charge.I disagree with a few of the things the BNP want but there are some things that they say are correct.

 

Just a quick question if the BNP would not have done well in the local elections would Charles Clarke have been sacked.I don't think so,but i have listened to so many people saying they voted BNP as a protest vote as they want the immigration problem solved.

 

That's what i want and i want the government and local council to stop wasting money of shite thing's like,the dome , the london eye.etc.

 

A few months back a mobile police station got set up by mine,I said to an old lady "isn't it great to see the gangs not about see was delighted and felt safe.It lasted 2 weeks,they then moved it and the little twats came back causing mayhem.I asked the police why move it when it worked.The answer,as you will know was Funding and resorces.It's wrong.

 

 

You want to try living in another country and accept how lucky you actually are. Tell me in you determination to seek a better future for your family for your actions can you not see that is all those 'illegals' are trying to do. Then look at those 'gangs' you mention and notice how white they are, hold them close as they are your own. They also know exactly how to work the system.

 

Are you only concerned about yourself in life and if that is the case do not expect others to be any different.

 

People like you have always got one black mate, always. It's as if that is the case because it gives you some sort of authority to comment. So you can be close but not to close for comfort.

 

The problem is as I have already said many times people are coming into the country illegally the BNP wouldn't be able to stop this anyway and most who come in here legally get turned back. You've already seen entirely legitimate family being sent out of the country and yet you wish to focus your prejudices on what other people have told you who work with these people. People who empty bins for a living tire of people who litter, people who work in dole offices despair of the people they must deal with in regard to claimants they know are sponging, the same with the people who work with these immigrants, what's new here?

 

You have a perception that there are hundreds of thousands of illegal aliens in this country but where did you get that unqualifiable information from??

 

You don't know whether you are racist or not? Well make a decision and stop hip to the hopping, at least be bold and consistent....

[Guest tommy tank]

Another thing Tommy Tank

 

I have my own company.I have been self employed for 6 years.I pay 40% of my money in tax.I get quite annoyed when cars have come into my garden and get fuck all off my council.Yet i see the immagrant's getting plenty.That is my problem.If you cannot see this you need to get in the real world and get your head out of your arse.

 

Well done. You own your own company but are incapable of moving?

Your head is up your arse as you can't qualify your beliefs with what is actually happening you simply decide what is happening because you are already prejudiced and need someone to blame and someone who is going to help you.

 

You are wrong on both counts. No one is saying you haven't got a right to be upset but you may as well go and become a serial killer and say that that is justified because you are having a hard time getting the council to listen. In other words it doesn't mean you are right in your assumptions just because you see yourself as a victim.

 

Take out some insurance or MOVE if you are not happy. There are many options open to you.

 

You think the BNP could handle running the country? You are having a laugh.

 

You know what happend when Robert Mugabe got rid of all the rich white people off the white owned farms? His people starved because they didn't know how to run these farms. The same is applicable here or elsewhere where certain people are needed.

 

You think illegal immigrants are a huge burden when the facts show otherwise. They are simply a drop in the ocean and make no differrence to the economy. BNP would waste more of your taxes building gigantic walls around the coasts of whatever extreme measures they'd undertake to stick to their principles of 'send the buggers back'. They'd still fail. Most immigrants come from former soviet bloc countries or Kosovo, you can't tell by the colour of their skin their ethnicity but again you wouldn't know them facts and figures or care to check them would you?

[Guest tommy tank]

20 years ago there was no problem.Yes we had black people in our city,and maybe as a kid it was strange to see black people in my area.

 

I remember in 1990 watching the world cup and the fella next door to me was as black as the ace of spades.Before the match he told me he was from Camaroon,i slagged him off told him england would give it to them.

 

When they scored he bangned on our house.I took it as a laugh,a lovely fella still see him today.I alway's go across and shake his hand.

 

As for being a racist maybe i am, but how do you define racists.

Because if a scouser hates a manc.calls him a manc twat is that not racism.

 

I don't hip hop as you say.I've already told you i fuckin hate the immagrant's ie kosovan's etc.illegal people i want them fucked

 

 

Sorry I didn't see this. Why do you hate people you've never met?

 

I used to call black people niggers to their faces when I was a kid because I grew up in Bootle, thought it was normal and never questioned it.

[Neil G]

I don’t think you’re a racist atk – I haven’t thought that at any point during this thread.

 

To me a racist is someone who thinks that people of other races are inherently inferior to them, and who judges all people purely by the colour of their skin. Your comments about your mate and about the Pakistani family prove to me that you’re capable of accepting people on their individual merits even when they’re of a different ethnicity, and therefore that you’re not a racist.

 

I do however think you’re badly misinformed about a lot of issues regarding immigration, and that you believe a lot of lies that are spread by the press because they confirm your existing prejudices. For starters, you’ve repeated your belief that many immigrants come to the UK because we give them generous benefits. I can guarantee you that the people from Sangatte who came to the UK to claim asylum didn’t do it because of the benefits on offer. Have you had a think about how much money asylum seekers receive in benefits? If you don’t know, have a look on the web, or failing that take a guess.

 

I’m not saying that everyone who came from Sangatte was genuinely in danger of persecution in their home countries. But whether they were or not, I’d argue that they chose the UK as their destination because they thought there was a better chance of getting work and making a life for themselves there than anywhere else in Europe. The British economy has been one of the strongest in Europe for the best part of a decade now, and as Hermes pointed out earlier, it’s easier to get a job and fit in in a foreign country if can you speak some of the lingo. Those who weren’t genuine refugees were using the asylum system as it’s the only way they could legally remain in the country for any length of time.

 

Which brings us to illegal immigrants, who you say you hate. I can promise you that the vast majority of people who are here working illegally would prefer to be here legally – earning at least the minimum wage, paying taxes, having their rights as employees protected, and not having to worry about being deported at a moment’s notice. Wouldn’t you if you were in that position? So why do you think they do it? The answer is that for a lot of people it’s simply impossible to get work in the UK legally. Even so working here illegally offers many of them a better quality of life than in their own countries.

 

A question for you. How would you feel if the government offered an amnesty to everyone who’s here working illegally – if they promised not to deport them, but instead to let them work and pay taxes? It’s not likely to happen any time soon, but in that hypothetical situation, would your hatred for those people remain? Which part of illegal immigration do you really hate – the illegal part, or the immigrant part?

 

Of course there will be some immigrants who try to fleece the system and get benefits they’re not entitled to. But for every one that does that, I can show you twenty British people who do the same. This isn’t an immigration issue, it’s a benefits issue, and the system should be strengthened against frauds and freeloaders whether they’re British or foreign. It’s only an immigration issue if the percentage of immigrants that abuse the system is significantly higher than the percentage of Britons who do the same. If you’re going to make the subject of benefits for foreigners an immigration issue, you need to prove that that’s the case.

 

Of course you want the government to spend your tax money properly and not waste it. But again, that’s only an immigration issue if immigration is a major contributor to the problem. I’ll repeat (or rephrase) another of my questions to you from my earlier post: what percentage of your tax bill do you think goes to support immigrants?

 

Your post suggests to me that you believe the following:

 

- People who come to this country should be welcomed if they’re prepared to work hard, support themselves, play by the rules and make a positive contribution to society and the economy

 

- People who are only here to milk the system have no right to be in this country

 

- People who come to this country should be expected to make an effort to fit into British society, but this needn’t be at the expense of their own cultural or national identity

 

Fair comments?

 

I agree with all of those. I honestly don’t think we’re that far apart on the basic principles of immigration. Where we’re miles apart is in our perception of the situation. I believe that the people covered by the first of those three points far outnumber those covered by the second, while your comments on this thread indicate that you believe the opposite – to such an extent, in fact, that you perceive immigration as a major problem and are prepared to vote for an extremist party which you think will remove the problem. As for illegal workers, I put it to you that the vast majority want to be in that first category but aren’t given the opportunity. In order to support themselves they have to break the law, which in your eyes puts them on a level with those in the second category.

 

As I’ve already said, I can understand you voting BNP as a protest against what you see as the main parties’ failure to address a major problem. But if you’d actually want a BNP government, read their policies carefully and have another think about the questions I’ve asked you in this and the previous post. If you’re going to vote in a government that would take such a radical step as deporting all immigrants, you’ve got a responsibility to make sure that your reasons for doing so are sound.

[Neil G]

YKI – I read Milgram’s book a few years ago, fascinating stuff and pretty fucking scary to boot. The experiments were actually about obedience rather than conformity though. The difference is that obedience involves an equal relationship between a superior and a subordinate, and is usually explicit (i.e. orders are given and followed), whereas conformity generally entails a relationship between equals, such as peer pressure in a group of friends, and is more implicit.

 

The question I was asking, about why certain people are more likely to believe what they read in the papers and hear from friends and colleagues about immigration, is more a question of conformity than of obedience – you can’t actually order anyone to think in a particular way unless you’ve already brainwashed them. I wouldn’t say that Milgram’s experiments really apply to this question (although they would be very relevant if the BNP ever got into power).

 

Conformity within a group of people similar to yourself is a very powerful way of subconsciously confirming both your identity and your security. In that sense it’s part of the herd instinct that all humans still possess to some degree or other. I would guess that conformity is a strong reason why many people instinctively accept rumours and half-truths they hear from friends in the office or down the pub. This applies especially when the people being talked about are perceived as being different by you and the rest of your group, and even more so if they have a negative stereotype attached to them (immigrants, chavs, Scousers for a lot of the country). Why challenge your peers and stick up for people that they’re suspicious of and dislike, when this will put you at odds with the rest of your group?

 

Obviously not everyone conforms to the same extent though, and there must be psychological reasons why person X is less susceptible to certain types of external pressure than person Y. As I said before, I don’t accept that it’s simply a case of your IQ or your social status. It’s something in your character. What I was really looking for was to see if you or anyone else was aware of any scientific explanation for this – not how conformity works and why it happens at all, but why it affects different people to different degrees.

[Neil G]

I've already told you i fuckin hate the immagrant's ie kosovan's etc.illegal people i want them fucked

 

I said I didn't think you were racist, but having just defended you I can't let that one go. The skin colour test may not apply, but judging someone purely by their nationality is effectively the same. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt after your comments about the Pakistani family, and assume that you didn't think properly before you posted that.

 

Do you hate all Kosovans, everywhere? If so, why? Another question to ask yourself and answer honestly. I know Kosovans who are hard-working respected members of their local communities in this country, and whose kids are settled and doing well at school. Just like the Pakistani guy.

 

There are decent people in all races, nationalities and ethnic groups, just as there are wankers in all of them. I'm assuming you get that really. If not, I can only suggest that you heed your own advice to TT and get out into the real world.

[Dirk]

You're right, Milgram was obedience and not conformity. However, to conform, an individual must first be compliant and obedient but that's another discussion altogether. In answer to your question, I don't have any definitive answers as there are numerous factors which could account for an individuals' unwillingness to conform and be obedient. Some people might have a greater awareness than others, both morally and emotionally. Some people display empathy more often than others whereas some individuals are inherently more selfish than others.

 

That in itself isn't the whole answer though, as with a lot psychological aspects it's impossible to state without equivocation the reason, as there are likely to be reasons. An individuals' upbringing might have something to do with it and by that I am not talking solely about parenting, though I suppose at some stage it could play a part. For instance, interactions with ethnic minorities and the outcome of those interactions at an early age might be a factor or lack of them. Again, I am not implying that it is the answer as there is obviously more than that occurring. The ability to arrive at conclusions independently is possibly a major factor because by the very definition of independence, they wouldn't have conformed. They mightn't be original thoughts but they would have been arrived at without coercion.

 

Then there is the idea of externality; that is there are those who are more likely to blame others for their problems. They see their problems as the results of others and struggle to gain a sufficiently healthy sense of self in order to correct their ills. There'll be a problem and they'll try to find an explanation for their troubles, i.e. "I've got no work, it's all dem foreigners taking our jobs" when the real reason is that they are lazy and don't really want to work. I am not implying that the unemployed are lazy before anybody takes that the wrong way.

 

This is before we look at the effects of conditioning on social attitudes. The media, as well as govenrments, largely shape the prevailing social norms. We can't all be leaders, so it stands to reason that the average person is a member of the herd. The herd member looks to perceived higher authorities for guidance. When a situation is, rightly or wrongly, distorted in the papers and or by the government, it's conceivable that the herd member can't arrive at any other logical conclusion so they tow the government/media line. This type of distorted journalism preys, in part, of our innate psychological make up, to be frightened of the unknown. I know more about the biology of the brain that I do about social psychology, if I am honest, as I have a greater interest in the neurosciences.

 

Back to the point, we have, at the biological level an innate ability to make snap judgements. LeDoux, I believe, did some studies on racism but they made him discontinue his work. Not because his studies were motivated by racial prejudice but because he was finding that we make snap judgements, unconsciously, before we've make conscious ones and, apparently, it was getting murky so they made him stop. LeDoux is one of the world's foremost neuroscientists. Ever had something fly past your eye and you've jumped before you've even saw what it is, only to find out it was a harmless fly? There are two circuits to the amygdala, the crude route, where our sense modalities project directly to the amygdala. This route makes snap judgements based on little information. The second route is from our sense modalities to the amygdala via the thalamus. This route is slower but a greater amount of processing takes place so fear based judgements made via this pathway occur when the individual has more information. If you're interested, LeDoux has done a lot of work on classically conditioned fear and the amygdala. How we are conditioned to fears is something far different to intellect. I think there are papers on the amygdala and racism but I am not wholly sure. The emotional mind and the rational mind are two different inhabitants of the same house.

 

*edit*

 

I found this.

 

http://jocn.mitpress.org/cgi/content/abstract/12/5/729

[Paul]

Neil G - you're showing too much tolerance and understanding to an evil doctrine. Yes, it's possible to understand why people vote BNP, but that doesn't excuse it. When I said step up or fuck off, I meant it.

 

What do these hate-mongers like Atk (he admits he hates all of these people) actually do to make things better? I know what I do every single day of my working life: challenge this sort of shite and educate children. The thing is, though, they always know, when they're caught throwing casually racist terms around, that what they're saying is wrong.

 

Do you think it was simply a lack of education that allowed the overwhelming majority of German people to allow Hitler to carry out his sick plan for eliminating the Jews? None of them knew it was wrong? Bollocks.

 

The simple fact is that Atk says he hates every single illegal immigrant. I can't conceive of such a thing. To my mind, anyone who willfully makes such a sweeping generalisation is entirely lacking in compassion or empathy and is entirely self-obsessed. Does he hate the new-born baby of parents who were smuggled in the day before her birth? Does he hate the people whose lives are so full of violence, pain and oppression that they only solution they see is to get here by any means possible?

 

I know full well that there are some cynical people who come here to take what they can. However, that does not mean they all do and nor does it mean we should employ racist policies in order to deal with the problem.

 

For the record, I never said all BNP voters were racist (although I suspect a huge majority of them are), but they are certainly prejudiced. How can they be anything else if they vote for a party with that set of policies?

 

My statement is one of anger, and I stand by it. I am angry.

[Paul]

Have a look at this prick getting destroyed by David Dimbleby. It'd be funny if he wasn't such a dangerous hate-monger. (Scroll down to "Oxygen of Publicity" and click on the link).

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/nickrobinson/

[cochcaer]

That is my problem.If you cannot see this you need to get in the real world and get your head out of your arse.

 

Maybe you need to pull your head out of your arse and question who you are supporting. Try typing UDA, UVF, BNP, Bolton into a search engine. You don't like immigrants but a bunch of murders is fine. Fuckwit.

 

They had their funds frozen a while back and it's time they were properly investigated and outlawed before more tits sleepwalk into the notion the BNP are a working-class version of UKIP.

[Neil G]

Neil G - you're showing too much tolerance and understanding to an evil doctrine. Yes, it's possible to understand why people vote BNP, but that doesn't excuse it. When I said step up or fuck off, I meant it.

 

I don’t tolerate the doctrine, and I take great exception to any suggestion that I do. It’s evil and destructive and the antithesis of everything I believe in, and I’ll do everything in my power to see that it never prevails in this country. That’s why I try to understand the people that are seduced by it, so that I can engage them and make some attempt to change their views.

 

At no point have I tried to excuse voting BNP. This question is an almost exact parallel of the terrorism debate which crops up on here regularly. The only way to defeat terrorism is to stop people from wanting to carry it out, and you can’t do that until you understand why they do it. That’s completely different from excusing it. Stu is probably the most vocal proponent of this view on here, and I’m broadly in agreement with him although we differ on some details. For my part I think the conflation of the concepts of understanding and justification is one of the most unedifying and damaging features of modern society, whether the subject is terrorism, crime, anti-social behaviour or voting for a racist party.

 

What do these hate-mongers like Atk (he admits he hates all of these people) actually do to make things better? I know what I do every single day of my working life: challenge this sort of shite and educate children. The thing is, though, they always know, when they're caught throwing casually racist terms around, that what they're saying is wrong.

 

That’s the attitude I’m trying to take, only with adults. I’d imagine that many people would be prepared to write off a lot of the kids you teach, saying that they’re bad ‘uns plains and simple and there’s no point in trying to change anything about them. It’s harder to change adults’ behaviour or views as both are more firmly set, but that doesn’t mean it’s not possible.

 

As I’ve already said, I’ve seen people’s views on immigration soften when I’ve engaged them constructively on it. I can’t know whether atk will change any of his views as a result of this thread, as an internet forum is no substitute for face-to-face conversation with people where you can address points one by one as soon as they arise. I can only hope that he might take some of what he reads on here away with him, even if it doesn’t show in his posts.

 

Do you think it was simply a lack of education that allowed the overwhelming majority of German people to allow Hitler to carry out his sick plan for eliminating the Jews? None of them knew it was wrong? Bollocks.

 

No, it wasn’t a lack of education. In a previous post I’ve said that I know intelligent, educated people who hold prejudices against immigrants and ethnic minorities, based on a lack of information and a propensity to accept stereotypes. Rather it was a lack of empathy. If the German people had viewed the Jews as human beings rather than animals or parasites, the Holocaust could never have happened. Which leads neatly on to...

 

The simple fact is that Atk says he hates every single illegal immigrant. I can't conceive of such a thing. To my mind, anyone who willfully makes such a sweeping generalisation is entirely lacking in compassion or empathy and is entirely self-obsessed. Does he hate the new-born baby of parents who were smuggled in the day before her birth? Does he hate the people whose lives are so full of violence, pain and oppression that they only solution they see is to get here by any means possible?

 

This is exactly what I’m trying to establish by engaging with him Paul. I want to understand why he says what he says, and more importantly I want him to understand why he says what he says. That’s why I’ve been asking him so many questions about where he gets his views from. His comments about the Pakistani family suggest that he is capable of recognising immigrants as human beings with dignity and worth. In that case he was able to see it for himself – that’s a first step. The next step is to try and get him to use imagination and reasoning to ask whether people he doesn’t see and knows less about might be every bit as decent as that Pakistani family, which I’ll do in my next post.

 

I know full well that there are some cynical people who come here to take what they can. However, that does not mean they all do and nor does it mean we should employ racist policies in order to deal with the problem.

 

Agreed. That was one of the points I was trying to make to atk last night.

 

For the record, I never said all BNP voters were racist (although I suspect a huge majority of them are), but they are certainly prejudiced. How can they be anything else if they vote for a party with that set of policies?

 

You’re right, apologies if I misrepresented you.

 

I agree that BNP voters are prejudiced. Virtually all human beings have prejudices about some group or other. Usually these prejudices are mild and harmless, sometimes they’re heavier and more damaging. In every case though they’re born of a lack of understanding of, and meaningful contact with, the group who are the subject of prejudice.

 

However I think it’s a mistake to assume that BNP voters are actually fully aware of the party’s policies. I would guess that many of them, when asked what they think the BNP would do about immigrants, would give a pretty vague answer along the lines of ‘get tough’, ‘sort them out’ or ‘stop giving them handouts’, rather than be able to name specific policies. Just a guess though, as they don’t have a big presence where I live and so I haven’t been subjected to their campaign literature or canvassing.

 

My statement is one of anger, and I stand by it. I am angry.

 

I share your anger Paul. I just choose to channel it in a different way. I won’t try to persuade you or anyone else to engage with BNP voters, but I want you to understand why I and others choose to do so.

 

Over the past few years I’ve volunteered for several charities that work with refugees and asylum seekers. I’ve met a lot of brave, compassionate and inspirational people who’ve been through hell in their own countries, then again trying to get here, and yet again trying to cope with the challenges they face to become accepted and integrated into British society. Throughout it all they’ve retained a humanity and a determination to make the best of their lives that would put most people in this country to shame.

 

I too am angry that people like atk don’t seem to understand or empathise with people like the ones I’ve met. I’m angry that they are often unable or unwilling to see immigrants as human beings with exactly the same needs, desires and worries that they have. Above all I’m angry that they don’t appreciate how ridiculously lucky they are, how lucky we all are, to live in a free and prosperous country such as Britain. But my anger isn’t directed at people like atk in the first instance – it’s directed at those in positions of responsibility who could do so much to change his attitude but don’t. My anger is directed at the sections of the press who scorn the notion that free expression is something to be treasured and exercised responsibly, not something to be abused by profiting from fear and prejudice. And it’s directed of the politicians of all stripes who lack the backbone to counter the press’s lies and make the moral and practical case for immigration to the British people without shame or reservation.

 

I want people like atk to take a look at the question of immigration from my point of view, and if I’m asking them to do that then I have an obligation to take a look at it from theirs. I can only get angry with BNP voters themselves if I’ve made my case to them and they refuse to consider it. If atk refuses to listen to anything I’ve got to say and to even think about the questions I’ve put to him, then there’s no point me continuing a dialogue with him as he’ll have confirmed your view of him. But I’ve seen too many people change their minds once they’ve been forced to confront their prejudices to write people like atk off without trying.

[Neil G]

atk:

 

I remember reading about the Pakistani family a while back. It’s the Dar family, right? I hadn’t been keeping up to date with the story, but I’m sorry to hear they’ve been deported. This sort of thing happens regularly. Every week I read another story about people being deported, and their British friends, neighbours and colleagues expressing regret and incomprehension that the government is getting rid of such fine people who give so much to their community.

 

The reason the government deports people like these is that it is panicked into being seen to be tough on immigration. It does this in a misguided attempt to satisfy people like yourself, when in my view it should be giving you more information about immigration and the benefits that it can bring. I’m not excusing the government’s actions, but your attitude to immigration is part of the reason those people were sent back to Pakistan to face who knows what fate. Sorry if that makes uncomfortable reading for you, but that’s my sincere opinion.

 

When the family first came to the UK they weren’t the recognised members of your local community that you now have respect and sympathy for. They’d have simply carried the label ‘asylum seekers’ and attracted derision and suspicion from most native people, possibly including you. Did you know them when they first arrived in the UK? If you had, what would your feelings about them have been? Nothing about them as people changed between them arriving and leaving – they had just been given the chance to prove themselves able and willing to give something to this country.

 

Now, have a think about the illegal immigrants that you’re vilifying and ask yourself whether, given the chance, they couldn’t prove to you that they’re every bit as deserving of your respect as the Pakistani family were. Ask yourself which position they’d rather be in – working shitty, low-paid and sometimes dangerous jobs to make ends meet while dodging the authorities, or earning a fair wage legally, paying taxes and being accepted by the society they live in. Ask yourself which position you’d rather be in if you had to flee the UK and seek refuge in another country, or if the UK economy was so fucked that you had to go abroad to provide a decent life for yourself and your family.

 

You’ve asked us to put ourselves in your shoes over your concerns about the speedbumps and your kids. I’ve been trying to do that, and so to be fair have a few others on here, by explaining why we understand your reasons for voting BNP. So, how about returning the gesture? Put yourself in the shoes of an illegal immigrant and then tell me why you hate him. Give me a valid answer to that in your next post and prove to Paul that I’m not wasting my time discussing this with you.

[Paul]

Neil, you're obviously a man of integrity, thought and compassion, all of which is laudable. However, I've read quite enough from Atk on this thread to write him off. It was the line (and I paraphrase) "I hate all illegal immigrants" that sealed it for me. Hatred transcends reason; ergo, fuck him.

 

...unless of course his statement was mere posturing in the midst of a heated debate - but only he knows that. I'll give him one thing though - at least he's got the fucking stones to put his name to this filth. Where the fuck are the other people who voted with him?

[Strontium]

Yeah, quite, 10 fucking people on here said they would consider voting BNP... now I expect some of those were taking the piss, but where are the ones who meant it? Come on lads, put your money where your mouth is.

[Neil G]

Neil, you're obviously a man of integrity, thought and compassion, all of which is laudable. However, I've read quite enough from Atk on this thread to write him off. It was the line (and I paraphrase) "I hate all illegal immigrants" that sealed it for me. Hatred transcends reason; ergo, fuck him.

 

...unless of course his statement was mere posturing in the midst of a heated debate - but only he knows that. I'll give him one thing though - at least he's got the fucking stones to put his name to this filth. Where the fuck are the other people who voted with him?

 

Fair enough about writing him off. The part of your post that I've highlighted is the key for me, and the reason I've continued to reply to him.

 

My questions to him about where he gets his views from are also valid for the others who voted yes, which is another reason why I've continued the exchange. Everything I've posted in my replies to atk can equally be addressed to them, whoever they may be.

[Strontium]

TBH, I feel atk is probably as much a product of his upbringing as anything else. His use of the now-taboo term "half cast" (sic) is pretty strong evidence that he's been hanging around people with pretty simple and out-of-date opinions.

[Paul]

About half a million 15 and 16 year olds study this for their English GCSE every year:

 

Halfe–Caste by John Agard

 

Excuse me

standing on one leg

I'm half-caste

 

Explain yuself

wha yu mean

when yu say half-caste

yu mean when picasso

mix red an green

is a half-caste canvas/

explain yuself

wha yu mean

when yu say half-caste

yu mean when light an shadow

mix in de sky

is a half-caste weather/

well in dat case

england weather

nearly always half-caste

in fact some o dem cloud

half-caste till dem overcast

so spiteful dem dont want de sun pass

ah rass/

explain yuself

wha yu mean

when yu say half-caste

yu mean tchaikovsky

sit down at dah piano

an mix a black key

wid a white key

is a half-caste symphony/

 

Explain yuself

wha yu mean

Ah listening to yu wid de keen

half of mih ear

Ah looking at u wid de keen

half of mih eye

and when I'm introduced to yu

I'm sure you'll understand

why I offer yu half-a-hand

an when I sleep at night

I close half-a-eye

consequently when I dream

I dream half-a-dream

an when moon begin to glow

I half-caste human being

cast half-a-shadow

but yu must come back tomorrow

wid de whole of yu eye

an de whole of yu ear

and de whole of yu mind

 

an I will tell yu

de other half

of my story