Should Corbyn remain as Labour leader?

[AngryOfTuebrook]

1 hour ago, Red Phoenix said:

Fuck the IHRA definition of antisemitism.

 

 

I think I read somewhere that even one of the authors of the IHRA Working Definition warned that it shouldn't be misused to suppress freedom of speech in that way.

[Rico1304]

Just now, AngryofTuebrook said:

I think I read somewhere that even one of the authors of the IHRA Working Definition warned that it shouldn't be misused to suppress freedom of speech in that way.

Aren’t they just saying they can’t guarantee someone won’t say something racist?   Low bar. 

[moof]

2 minutes ago, AngryofTuebrook said:

I think I read somewhere that even one of the authors of the IHRA Working Definition warned that it shouldn't be misused to suppress freedom of speech in that way.

You did

 

https://docs.house.gov/meetings/JU/JU00/20171107/106610/HHRG-115-JU00-Wstate-SternK-20171107.pdf

[Strontium]

4 minutes ago, AngryofTuebrook said:

I think I read somewhere that even one of the authors of the IHRA Working Definition warned that it shouldn't be misused to suppress freedom of speech in that way.

 

Quite.

 

That won't stop those with an axe to grind from misrepresenting the IHRA definition.

[Numero Veinticinco]

I don’t think the IHRA definition of antisemitism is very good at all, to be honest. That said, it’s an academic issue and somewhat pedantic, so that shouldn’t be used to get in the way of it’s intended purpose of defining and stopping antisemitism. It could do with revision though. 

[Numero Veinticinco]

23 minutes ago, moof said:

Yes of course. If we want to change the way this country is structured we need to put an end to corporations and capitalists profiting off the basic needs of the civilians. That’s a priority. 

I don’t see it as a pressing concern to socialise trains and electricity companies. Honestly, I don’t. I share your general principle, that basic needs should be met and available from the state and they should do so without a small group of extremely wealthy people profiting from it. However, I think calling for revolutionary changes could i the short term makes things dramatically worse for the people you’re trying to help, and I’m the medium to long term only provide moderate gains. That’s why I say be pragmatic and do what works rather than barging through on principle. 

 

That and I think we have much bigger fish to fry at the moment. 

[moof]

3 minutes ago, Numero Veinticinco said:

I don’t think the IHRA definition of antisemitism is very good at all, to be honest. That said, it’s an academic issue and somewhat pedantic, so that shouldn’t be used to get in the way of it’s intended purpose of defining and stopping antisemitism. It could do with revision though. 

Yeah, I’m not certain it’s all that useful in stopping antisemitism. It’s certainly handy for stifling pro Palestinian activism, though

[AngryOfTuebrook]

Just now, Sixtimes Dog said:

 

Quite.

 

That won't stop those with an axe to grind from misrepresenting the IHRA definition.

Or others with a different axe* pretending that the Labour NEC's proposed Code of Conduct didn't contain the Working Definition and all but half a sentence of one of the examples.

 

(*That's not intended as an attempt at a personal dig: I genuinely can't remember your opinion on this. )

 

It still pisses me off that Labour never stood their ground over what would have been a very valuable weapon in the fight against anti-Semitism. 

[AngryOfTuebrook]

12 minutes ago, Numero Veinticinco said:

I don’t think the IHRA definition of antisemitism is very good at all, to be honest. That said, it’s an academic issue and somewhat pedantic, so that shouldn’t be used to get in the way of it’s intended purpose of defining and stopping antisemitism. It could do with revision though. 

That's pretty much why it's referred to as a Working Definition: even the IHRA don't intend for it to be set in stone.

[Red Phoenix]

50 minutes ago, Section_31 said:

Genuine question. But that stuff in the echo this week about the Liverpool Lord mayor posting something about monkeys and black people, why wasn't that Corbyn's fault but anything antisimetic is?

 

How come said mayor wasn't part of Corbyn's vile racist troll army?

 

I think they're just focusing on antisemitism smears because to start adding in other stuff would be too obvious and people would start seeing how much bullshit it is a lot faster. Fortunately some of them have still been going so over the top that it seems to have allowed more people to see the truth of it lately. Maybe the panorama thing was a bit of a tipping point where they went too far.

 

[Red Phoenix]

33 minutes ago, Nelly-Torres said:

It's negged you. 

 

It turns out that Captain Freedom stops short of fighting for freedom of speech. In certain circumstances. 

 

It's ok, will hopefully pay for a sub again shortly and go back to randomly neg some of his old posts from 2010 or something (joke.)

[Anubis]

10 hours ago, Boss said:

A vote for 16 year olds is the dumbest thing ever. As if the country doesn't have enough uninformed people voting as it is. 

I’ve met plenty of 16 year olds who are more clued-up or who give a shit about the people and world around them, than 30yr+ gobshites who believe anything the Sun tells them and are selfish twats.

[Rico1304]

30 minutes ago, Anubis said:

I’ve met plenty of 16 year olds who are more clued-up or who give a shit about the people and world around them, than 30yr+ gobshites who believe anything the Sun tells them and are selfish twats.

So how does that impact on the age of responsibility, putting 16 yr olds in adult prisons?  

[Strontium]

11 minutes ago, Rico1304 said:

So how does that impact on the age of responsibility, putting 16 yr olds in adult prisons?  

 

They'll all be earning 10 quid an hour, so they won't need to commit crime in the first place.

[Rico1304]

So, the ride wasn’t a problem. It was racists being racists that was the problem. 

 

“Officials told organisers there was a risk speakers might express views which contradicted the council’s policies on community cohesion and equality”

 

 

[Red Phoenix]

9 minutes ago, Rico1304 said:

So, the ride wasn’t a problem. It was racists being racists that was the problem. 

 

“Officials told organisers there was a risk speakers might express views which contradicted the council’s policies on community cohesion and equality”

 

 

 

If you read on that was just what they said to the organisers. Right after your quote there's this :

 

Quote

Behind the scenes, council staff raised fears of a “real risk” that the event and its organisers could be seen to have breached the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance’s (IHRA) working definition of antisemitism because of references on their website to apartheid and ethnic cleansing. One official said there were concerns “not least because of the recent furour [sic] within the Labour party over Anti Semitism [sic]”.

When considering how to explain the decision, one council official said it would be wise to “avoid the anti Semitism aspect ref their website as this could open a can of worms and come back to bite us”. There was no reference to antisemitism in the email to the event’s organisers.

The internal emails, released after a freedom of information request by the Palestinian Solidarity Campaign, revealed the council attempted to assess the Big Ride website according to the rubric of the controversial IHRA definition.

 

[Nelly-Szoboszlai]

26 minutes ago, Rico1304 said:

So, the ride wasn’t a problem. It was racists being racists that was the problem. 

 

“Officials told organisers there was a risk speakers might express views which contradicted the council’s policies on community cohesion and equality”

 

 

 

[Rico1304]

#Yewtree

[Rico1304]

49 minutes ago, Red Phoenix said:

 

If you read on that was just what they said to the organisers. Right after your quote there's this :

 

 

That’s exactly the fucking same thing.  

[AngryOfTuebrook]

3 hours ago, Rico1304 said:

So, the ride wasn’t a problem. It was racists being racists that was the problem. 

 

“Officials told organisers there was a risk speakers might express views which contradicted the council’s policies on community cohesion and equality”

 

 

Where is there any evidence - or even grounds for suspicion - of racism?

 

Nobody is claiming that the IHRA has outlawed bicycles.  Nobody is pretending that the ride was a problem. 

 

The problem is the "electric fence" effect of the IHRA Working Definition;  that council officials saw that it was a pro-Palestinian event and (ignoring the actual wording of the IHRA document) acted as though criticism of the Israeli government is inherently anti-Semitic. 

[sir roger]

20 minutes ago, AngryofTuebrook said:

Where is there any evidence - or even grounds for suspicion - of racism?

 

Nobody is claiming that the IHRA has outlawed bicycles.  Nobody is pretending that the ride was a problem. 

 

The problem is the "electric fence" effect of the IHRA Working Definition;  that council officials saw that it was a pro-Palestinian event and (ignoring the actual wording of the IHRA document) acted as though criticism of the Israeli government is inherently anti-Semitic. 

I assumed that to the likes of LFI & the Jewish Chronicle that was the whole point.

[Red Phoenix]

3 hours ago, Rico1304 said:

That’s exactly the fucking same thing.  

Yeah, sure it is. Where the racists being racists in either?

[aRdja]

15 hours ago, Section_31 said:

Genuine question. But that stuff in the echo this week about the Liverpool Lord mayor posting something about monkeys and black people, why wasn't that Corbyn's fault but anything antisimetic is?

 

How come said mayor wasn't part of Corbyn's vile racist troll army?

Not for the lack of effort from the right.

 

 

[Vincent Vega]

45 seats the Tories currently hold that have a smaller majority than they had in Brecon & Radnorshire and also voted Remain in the referendum. I’d say that whilst Johnson and his current no deal plans may win the Tories a few extra seats, they risk losing more to Labour, the Lib Dem’s and the SNP.

 

 

[aRdja]

 

Corbyn is a full on white supremacist now according the right.