Should the UK remain a member of the EU

[Arniepie]

2 minutes ago, Gnasher said:

No, but they inadvertently let the Genie out of the bottle. I do believe however Cummings factored it in and knew it'd confuse and split the left, especially in the North, which it has. Its good for Labour Cummings is gone.

So if it wasnt their intention, in fact the opposite, wont they do everything in their power to suppress it?

[TD_LFC]

Not sure desperation increases that pull workers from one sector to another and will, ultimately, go back down again (either in bottom line wages or erosion of benefits) is something to celebrate.

 

Looks good on paper early on, but when it stabilises and the the conservatives get around to gutting workers rights it's going to be really easy to get rid of those 'high earners' for people on a lower wage.

 

All we're seeing at the moment is crisis management.

[magicrat]

I'm shocked. Who would have thought Johnson would have gone into reverse over visas for drivers and claim credit for pushing up wages,

 

On a serious point I can never recall being at the point where I genuinely don't believe a word that comes out of the Governments mouth and I mean any government we have had since the seventies,  We have always had spin and people being economical with the truth but the outright lies and suppression of facts is off the fucking scale with these fuckers. They treat the public with utter contempt and millions still lap it up can come back for more.   Desperate times.

[Moctezuma]

1 hour ago, Gnasher said:

No, but they inadvertently let the Genie out of the bottle. I do believe however Cummings factored it in and knew it'd confuse and split the left, especially in the North, which it has. Its good for Labour Cummings is gone.

He'll be back at some point 

[Gnasher]

1 hour ago, Arniepie said:

So if it wasnt their intention, in fact the opposite, wont they do everything in their power to suppress it?

Yeah probably after the election. It'll be what Angry warned about, that's the danger.

[deiseach]

I recently happened upon a blog post at the eye-rollingly titled 'Freethinking Economist' - I've yet to encounter anyone who brags about how closed-minded they are - which was a good analysis of the idea that you can increase wages by reducing labour supply. It's well worth reading in full, but the money quote is right at the end:

Quote

Run the economy hot but only by raising demand. Higher demand that raises the value of labour, and induces employers to find ways of getting more from each hour worked, is a good thing. Restrictions on labour supply that cut the potential of the economy and damage people’s opportunities are not.  Self-induced privations are not a good policy tool, even if they give you some incentive to innovate. After all, perhaps the best known example of lower labour supply raising wages was meant to be the Black Death (1346-8?), which I was taught was great news for the peasants that survived, as it boosted their bargaining power (although this work suggests wages didn’t start rising for 30 years.)  But, seriously – can anyone really sit back and say the Black Death was a Good Thing?

[Arniepie]

29 minutes ago, magicrat said:

I'm shocked. Who would have thought Johnson would have gone into reverse over visas for drivers and claim credit for pushing up wages,

 

On a serious point I can never recall being at the point where I genuinely don't believe a word that comes out of the Governments mouth and I mean any government we have had since the seventies,  We have always had spin and people being economical with the truth but the outright lies and suppression of facts is off the fucking scale with these fuckers. They treat the public with utter contempt and millions still lap it up can come back for more.   Desperate times.

Agreed. 

Almost everything that comes out of that's cunts mouth is a lie.

I genuinely think this lot will do more damage than Thatcher.

[Gnasher]

39 minutes ago, Moctezuma said:

He'll be back at some point 

Oh I don't know, I think Marie Antoinette has her feet firmly under the table.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

4 hours ago, Gnasher said:

Large parts of the Labour movement (that was supposed to be set up to champion and promote the case of low paid workers) seem very lukewarm now low paid workers are being delt a stronger hand through Brexit, which is probably why the Tories are so far ahead in the polls and will once again unfortunately walk the next election.

This is not what is happening.

 

Wage increases are always welcome, but when they're limited (in terms of sectors and in terms of durability) and they're a side-effect of two things (Brexit and Covid) that are, overall, harmful to our Econ and society, then we're not celebrating or thinking our work here is done.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

4 hours ago, Gnasher said:

The workers yet to receive pay rises ( and I agree Angry, millions haven't) are now in a stronger position to demand employers appreciate their labour than they have been for decades, simple case of supply and demand, labour over capital and labour has the upper hand.

This is simply untrue; pure fantasy fiction. The opposite is closer to the truth. Millions of workers whose services we all depend on - NHS workers, local council workers, public transport workers, etc. - are being offered yet another real-terms pay cut. The Government's justification for this is the same old blather about tightening belts, all in this together, unprecedented times, blah, blah, blah; empty shelves and petrol stations just makes it easier for them to sell that bullshit.

[Gnasher]

56 minutes ago, AngryOfTuebrook said:

This is simply untrue; pure fantasy fiction. The opposite is closer to the truth. Millions of workers whose services we all depend on - NHS workers, local council workers, public transport workers, etc. - are being offered yet another real-terms pay cut. The Government's justification for this is the same old blather about tightening belts, all in this together, unprecedented times, blah, blah, blah; empty shelves and petrol stations just makes it easier for them to sell that bullshit.

But it's plainly true, what the 'government offers' is irrelevant; they'll always offer the lowest price, its up to workers and unions to stand their ground and argue the value of their labour. Never has it been so transparent the value of ordinary workers in working class jobs. This really should be stardust for unions and the Labour Party, never in my lifetime has the balance between capital and labour so favoured labour, its up to the unions, workers's, Labour Party and us all not to dismiss it.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

3 minutes ago, Gnasher said:

But it's plainly true, what the 'government offers' is irrelevant; they'll always offer the lowest price, its up to workers and unions to stand their ground and argue the value of their labour. Never has it been so transparent the value of ordinary workers in working class jobs. This really should be stardust for unions and the Labour Party, never in my lifetime has the balance between capital and labour so favoured labour, its up to the unions, workers's, Labour Party and us all not to dismiss it.

Reality disagrees.

[Moctezuma]

1 hour ago, Gnasher said:

Oh I don't know, I think Marie Antoinette has her feet firmly under the table.

Agreed, what I meant was post Johnson when things get more tricky for them with the demographics in the late 2020s/early 2030s

[Arniepie]

33 minutes ago, Gnasher said:

But it's plainly true, what the 'government offers' is irrelevant; they'll always offer the lowest price, its up to workers and unions to stand their ground and argue the value of their labour. Never has it been so transparent the value of ordinary workers in working class jobs. This really should be stardust for unions and the Labour Party, never in my lifetime has the balance between capital and labour so favoured labour, its up to the unions, workers's, Labour Party and us all not to dismiss it.

Workers are normally shit scared to lose their jobs.

We have had 2 ballots here and both rejected strike action.

They have also made it much harder to go on strike.

[Gnasher]

8 hours ago, Arniepie said:

Workers are normally shit scared to lose their jobs.

We have had 2 ballots here and both rejected strike action.

They have also made it much harder to go on strike.

True.

[Gnasher]

9 hours ago, AngryOfTuebrook said:

Reality disagrees.

Does it? Workers have never in my lifetime been held in such high regard, from key workers helping us though covid to lorry drivers and agricultural workers putting food on out plates because of the labor shortage. That's the reality, its up to us whether we want to run with it or dismiss and reject it.

[skend04]

4 minutes ago, Gnasher said:

Does it? Workers have never in my lifetime been held in such high regard, from key workers helping us though covid to lorry drivers and agricultural workers putting food on out plates because of the labor shortage. That's the reality, its up to us whether we want to run with it or dismiss and reject it.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/oct/02/i-used-to-love-being-a-gp-now-i-feel-useless-scarred-for-life-fears-as-staff-quit-after-abuse

 

It's as though you live in an alternate reality. 

[Gnasher]

2 minutes ago, skend04 said:

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/oct/02/i-used-to-love-being-a-gp-now-i-feel-useless-scarred-for-life-fears-as-staff-quit-after-abuse

 

It's as though you live in an alternate reality. 

One sectre, and we are coming out of a pandemic. I think most fair minded people appreciate our NHS workers.

[skend04]

5 minutes ago, Gnasher said:

One sectre, and we are coming out of a pandemic. I think most fair minded people appreciate our NHS workers.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/jan/10/uk-supermarket-staff-say-they-have-become-the-forgotten-key-workers

 

More key workers facing abuse. A different sector this time.

[Gnasher]

2 minutes ago, skend04 said:

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/jan/10/uk-supermarket-staff-say-they-have-become-the-forgotten-key-workers

 

More key workers facing abuse. A different sector this time.

Idiots. Dosnt mean they are any less regarded. A lot of workers are in a stronger position to ask for pay rises/better working conditions because of the labour shortages, sorry but that's the way it is, a load of num nuts do not change that.

[Colonel Bumcunt]

If Amazon workers went on strike for pay then I would fully expect the Tories to pull the army in to complete orders. 

 

[AngryOfTuebrook]

11 hours ago, Gnasher said:

. A lot of workers are in a stronger position to ask for pay rises/better working conditions because of the labour shortages, sorry but that's the way it is, 

That's not true for most workers, though.

 

That would only be true if the only - or even the main - determinant of wages was supply and demand. It's not. The power balance between employers and employees is the main factor and that has not changed in any fundamental, positive way; on the contrary, Johnson's Brexit government exist primarily to shift power and money away from workers in favour of their class.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

 

[No2]

Johnson and the Tories must have been following Gnasher. He was 3 months ahead of them but they're on the same page now. It was always about appreciation for the lowly paid.

[Moo]

Should be renamed to The Cognitive Dissonance thread.