Should the UK remain a member of the EU

[magicrat]

4 hours ago, Barry Wom said:

Yep. It's almost like none of them are really taking it seriously and just think they're playing in the apprentice or something. 

Apparently Gove has taken it seriously hence his backing for May

 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6425479/Michael-Gove-backed-hearing-UK-run-drinking-water-DAYS-No-Deal.html

[Strontium]

45 minutes ago, rico1304 said:

Richard Burgon just said the age of the expert is over.  Labour will get a better deal.  Madness. 

 

Insane or lying? A tough one.

[House of Dirk]

43 minutes ago, Strontium Dog said:

 

Insane or lying? A tough one.

 

This differs from developments thus far, how ?

[Denny Crane]

2 hours ago, skend04 said:

So the EU once again tell everyone listening that the agreed deal is the best it gets if leaving. 

 

It's the best deal with the red lines that the Tory party have in place.

 

 

Jon Stone

 

@joncstone

 

"Given the positions of the United Kingdom this is the only possible deal. Given the red lines.” senior EU official says

[Section_31]

Always makes me laugh when the Spanish go on about colonialism. Half of Souh America is called Martinez.

[Strontium]

19 minutes ago, Denny Crane said:

 

It's the best deal with the red lines that the Tory party have in place.

 

 

Jon Stone

 

@joncstone

 

"Given the positions of the United Kingdom this is the only possible deal. Given the red lines.” senior EU official says

 

The biggest red line is ending freedom of movement, which Labour shares, so don't be pretending Labour could do any better.

[Numero Veinticinco]

Give it Cleggseh.

[Denny Crane]

1 hour ago, Strontium Dog said:

 

The biggest red line is ending freedom of movement, which Labour shares, so don't be pretending Labour could do any better.

I agree on the biggest red line hence me saying put FoM to the people on a referendum if we have to have one and not the fix some are advocating. I obviously don't agree on your second point. 

 

A reminder of one the tests set by Labour. So at some stage Labour have to put some more meat on the bones and maybe go for an EEA style deal plus customs union. Their red line being to do with state aid and all it entails.  I wouldn't be at all surprised if that happens when the Tory deal gets voted down. 

 

Does it deliver the “exact same benefits” as we currently have as members of the Single Market and Customs Union?

[Denny Crane]

Incidentally SD you only have 12 mps and it looks like two of them may support Mays deal. The pro Europe party... Highlights how divided and complex it all is. 

 

A Liberal Democrat MP is facing calls to have the party whip removed over he vowed to vote for Theresa May's Brexit deal.

Stephen Lloyd provoked fury among party members he would break from the rest of his party in order to back the agreement when it is MPs are given a "meaningful vote" on the deal next month

 

 

Another of the party's MPs, Norman Lamb, has also refused to say how he will vote on the deal. His constituency, North Norfolk, voted 59 per cent to 41 per cent in favour of Leave

 

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-news-lib-dem-stephen-lloyd-theresa-may-deal-vote-parliament-vince-cable-whip-a8643396.html%3famp

[moof]

The Tories need some new bedfellows for their confidence and supply deal. Step forward yellow liberals, now’s your time to shine 

[Babb'sBurstNad]

Bit of a minefield for any MP representing a constituency that voted leave. If you vote the deal down you risk being seen to ignore the supposed people's will, and with it democracy, which will likely result in you being booted out at the next opportunity. 

 

It feels like the kind of shitstorm many are happier commenting on that being directly involved with. The premise of the referendum was flawed to begin with, and no one can deliver the undeliverable.

 

[Don Balon]

19 hours ago, Strontium Dog said:

 

The biggest red line is ending freedom of movement, which Labour shares, so don't be pretending Labour could do any better.

Yes, which is the reason why millions of people voted Leave, so to ignore that facet in discussions would not only be stupid but...well...basically just fucking oafish stupidity, like Chris Farley in Chris Farley films, that level of acumen.

 

 

 

The British people have spoken, and the government has to listen. 

Just because ta subset of the British people said "fuck off spicks and gypsies", doesn't mean the government can turn around to the EU and go "look, they didn't mean that, they were drunk, spirits were high, so here's what they really meant to say..."

 

We have a few million people with deeply questionable ethical foundations.

 

The 65 and overs, imagine what their life has been like:

 

Born 1948, say, what events have shaped their lives and their subsequent world view? 

A lot of people in this country were brought up in their formative years with the death penalty, and corporal punishment in schools, and wanton prejudice against gays, blacks, asians, disabled people going unchecked by society, and no culture of health and safety , or environmental responsibilities, and very lax attitudes towards how women are treated both in and out of the house.  

 

They didn't see the horrors of war, but they lived with the people who had, which must have been tough at times. That said, they were front and centre for when the state, under Labour, gave out free education, raised those standards, built houses, created jobs, and encouraged the arts.  

 

I still can't believe that the Tories managed to get away with reducing the voting age from 21 to 18 back in 1970.  

 

I also can't believe that people can have lived through the sales of national companies back in 1986, and still consider giving them a vote these days.  

 

 

• Start from the beginning, it's post WW2 and we're rebuilding under a Labour government, so there's immense optimism and jobs popping up everywhere, and houses being built at the highest rate in our history. 
• Parents have been shaped by the war, not quite sure it's a good thing or a bad thing.  Quite how that affects someone is open to interpretation, but post-war saw a huge amount of divorces for the first time.  Bear in mind there's next to no law with regard to how you can treat your other half, or your kids....
• School leaving age is 15.
• First flood of immigrants from the commonwealth from 1948, when the Windrush came in.
• NHS established in 1948.
• UK population is 50m in 1951.
• First scheduled flight by a commercial jet in 1952.
• The King dies, and Queen Elizabeth II coronated in 1953.
• Elvis, 1953.
• Food rationing ends in 1954.
• Tories lose the Suez Canal in 1956, with Eden resigning. 
• Sputnik 1 launched in 1957.
• First contraceptive pill in 1957.
• First part of motorway opens in 1958.
• Tories win general election in 1959 with the slogan "you've never had it so good".
• Russia shoots down US aircraft in U-2 incident, East v West tensions rise.
• 44% of households own a washing machine by 1960.
• 17 African nations get independence in 1960.
• Berlin Wall built in 1961.
• Marilyn Monroe dies in 1962.
• Cuban missile crisis in 1962.
• Assassination of JFK in 1963.
• Martin Luther King has a dream in 1963.
• The Beatles, from 1963.
• Britain tries to join EU (ECM) in 1963, vetoed by France who claim we lacked committment to integration.
• Universities boom and students get state support from 1963.
• 90% of households own a tv by 1964
• First up-close images of Mars in 1964.
• Comprehensive schools replace the old system. 
• Death penalty abolished in 1965. 
• Churchill dies in 1965.
• England wins 1966 World Cup.
• Abortion and Homosexuality are legalised in 1967.
• Martin Luther King and Robert Kennedy murdered in 1968.
• Man on the moon in 1969.
• Stonewall riots for gay rights in 1969.
• First flight of the 747 in 1970.
• School leaving age raised to 16 in 1970.
• Voting age is lowered from 21 to 18.
• First British soldier dies in Northern Ireland troubles in 1971.
• UK population is 55m in 1971.
• Decimilisation introduced, which is blamed for the increase in inflation, in 1971.
• North Sea oil rights are auctioned off in 1971. 
• Munich massacre at Olympics in 1972.
• Bloody Sunday 1972.
• Britain joins the EU (EEC).
• Britain borrows from IMF due to crisis in Sterling, first Western state to be forced into this.  IMF demand cuts in government spending.
• Unemployment stands at one million by 1975, the highest since the war ended. 
• Elvis dies 1977. 
• Strikes paralyse Britain in 1978/79 during Winter of Discontent. 
• First test tube baby 1978.
• Thatcher seizes power in 1979.
• Recession hits in 1980, unemployment hits 2 million.
• 1980 Mount St Helens erupts.
• John Lennon murdered in 1980.
• MTV launched in 1981.
• AIDS epidemic begins in 1981.
• Brixton and Toxteth riots in 1981.
• Recession in 1982 leads to 3 million out of work, known worldwide as the Volcker Deflation, the deepest post-war global recession. 
• Falklands War 1982.
• Thatcher wins general election in 1983.
• Ethopian famine 1983-85
• National miners strike in 1984.
• IRA bomb Tory conference in 1984.
• Ghandi murdered in 1984.
• Live Aid 1985
• British Gas, British Aerospace, Cable and Wireless, Britoil, National Bus Company, British Airways, Rolls Royce, British Steel, British Telecom, electricity and water companies all sold off and privatised in 1986 under the guise of it cutting government expenditure, and reducing the need for state subsidies.  
• Unemployment rate in 1986 is 14%.
• Challenger space disaster 1986.
• Chernobyl disaster 1986.
• Corporal punishment ends in state schools in 1987.
• Prozac launched in 1987.
• Lockerbie 1988.
• Berlin Wall comes down in 1989.
• Hillsborough 1989.
• Climate change first established 1990.
• First website online 1991.
• Kuwait War in 1991.
• End of the Soviet Union in 1991.
• LA race riots 1992.
• Channel Tunnel opens in 1992.
• Sterling removed (by EU) from EU's Exchange Rate Mechanism 
• First woman priest ordained by CofE in 1994.
• Apartheid ends in 1994.
• Dolly the sheep is cloned in 1996.
• Hong Kong returned to China in 1997.
• Good Friday agreement ends troubles in NI in 1998.
• Recession in 2000 as dot com bubble bursts. 
• 9/11
• Britain joins US to invade Iraq in 2003.
• London suicide bomber 2005.
• Same-sex couples legal rights in 2005.
• UK population is 63m in 2011. 

[SasaS]

And the point is?

[Don Balon]

1 hour ago, SasaS said:

And the point is?

To make your own mind up based on that, whether or not Labour could change the mindset of millions of people who were massively entrenched in their viewpoints on our growing population and the correlation with what they deem to be a decline in our living standards. 

 

For them, not being in the EU seemed to correlate with the times when things were brilliant for them, notably the 1960's. 

 

It's a bit like us as Liverpool supporters insisting that times were better before the advent of the premier league, because we won shit and crowds were great, and all that. Nobody in the PL could make a good argument to convince the majority of older Liverpool fans against that entrenched viewpoint. 

 

The Tories let the genie out of the bottle by calling the referendum.  At that point, there was no stopping the inevitable airing of the older people's viewpoint on modern society, and what they consider to be a contributing factor to that, ie, that we were spending billions on this 'useless thing' (EU) when it could be spent making the country better again, like it was in 1970 just before we joined Europe. 

 

We may as well have had a referendum on whether or not to believe in God.  It doesn't matter who does what campaigning, there would be a large chunk of people who were not going to listen to 'experts' or common sense.  

 

The Tories, notably the nefarious bastards behind the scenes, pushed the issue based on these personal views, this yearning for yesterday, and Cameron was a soft fat shite who caved-in.

 

It's laughable that some people in business claim they voted Leave because they had some insight into the way markets would work and how it would help them and the economy.  It's bullshit, and everyday we see further evidence that they were wrong the economy is going to tank. 

 

It's rediculous to claim that Labour could have stopped this, it wasn't in their gift to stop it, it was a wild animal that the Tories let out of the cage. 

[ZonkoVille77]

So @Don Balon, old Brits are basically cunts and the ones that voted Tory are even bigger cunts?

[Don Balon]

2 minutes ago, ZonkoVille77 said:

So @Don Balon, old Brits are basically cunts and the ones that voted Tory are even bigger cunts?

No, old Brits aren't basically cunts, they're lucky bastards and society has developed to support them at every turn in their life.  It's just a curve that starts from the end of WW2 and continues to this day, more or less.  They were born at the right time, it's just that simple, and yes it's easy for me to be very envious of that. 

 

The Tory party panders to this.  The I'm Alright Jack brigade.

 

In the same way that villagers in Germany were made to help clear out the concentration camps after the war, I think a lot of the older generation could do with a month of visiting facilities and places that the Tories have fucked.  They can start with Grenfell, and then they can have a tour of the midlands, and the North, and visit schools, and speak to working class 18-45 year olds who have been mangled-up by the Tories twice. 

[clangers]

1 hour ago, ZonkoVille77 said:

So @Don Balon, old Brits are basically cunts and the ones that voted Tory are even bigger cunts?

Not all but a large enough proportion. The baby boomers are a real problem, they've done very well out of the last 50 years and have effectively cut the ladder for later generations so stick to their beloved Tory Party and vice versa.

 

Another issue is the makeup of the Tory Party itself now, old selfish bastards and obsessive young activists.

[TheBitch]

I'm gonna wait for two more pages of this, read it all the way through and then make a decision on this one way or the other.

[cloggypop]

2 hours ago, SasaS said:

And the point is?

Live Aid was pretty grim like. 

[Mook]

16 minutes ago, cloggypop said:

Live Aid was pretty grim like. 

My Auntie Lynda (pictured below with Tony Iommi) said Live Aid was fucking magic.

 

[magicrat]

Don Balon sounds a lot like San Don.  Just saying

[aRdja]

14 minutes ago, magicrat said:

Don Balon sounds a lot like San Don.  Just saying

DM me @El Rojo

[El Rojo]

13 minutes ago, aRdja said:

DM me @El Rojo

PM’d.

[cloggypop]

52 minutes ago, magicrat said:

Don Balon sounds a lot like San Don.  Just saying

Plus ratcatcher is a fucking balloon. 

[Bjornebye]

Is Grandmaster Gammon against all odds going to torpedo Brexit?