Liverpool Crime

[Arniepie]

32 minutes ago, Antynwa said:

The more time goes on, the more the poverty issue is becoming less and less of a reason.

 

Decent people live in the same communities as those committing these crime, who are arguably worse off and come from worse backgrounds, yes different things affect different people I get that.

 

Liverpool has a huge problem because this culture has been glamorized for years, at various levels. Its depressing, it angers me. We are meant to be better than this but we're not. 

 

 

 

 

Poverty is a huge factor but there are other issues involved.

Education,lack of opportunities etc

Like I said yesterday its hardly a coincidence that crime, drugs and violent are much worse in deprived areas than more prosperous places.

[Paulie Dangerously]

4 minutes ago, Strontium said:

 

Any and all definitions of normal apply.

 

When you criminalise normal human activity, you will create criminals.

 

You could criminalise bread tomorrow, and people would be killing each other over slices of toast.

 

What's on the toast though? 

 

3 minutes ago, Chairman Meow said:

 

We've been shaming those in it since the war on drugs began. It's not been even close to effective.

 

Not all are, but the majority of addicts are a product of trauma and the drugs become self medication. Heaping shame on top of them, demonising them and treating them as sub human is not a solution to that.

 

Seriously, how many people on this forum have actually looked at the changes made in Portugal and Switzerland and seen what occurred?

 

Or indeed, as we are on a Liverpool forum, the work of John Marks which actually happened in the city loads of TLW users are from?

 

The only examples of prohibition we have are alcohol in the 1920's and the drug war which followed that. Neither of which worked. Yet the examples of decriminalisation have seen improvements and typically seen the number of users go down.

 

So we have a 100% record of failing with prohibition and a 100% record of decriminalisation achieving something approaching what we apparently want to happen, albeit without being a perfect solution. And people are arguing we need more of the former.

 

 

Conversation being increasingly pulled towards curing drug use as a society. My initial comment was intended that individuals have the choice to contribute or not to the drug culture. Every weekend you have once a week users flooding the city centre sharing a bag with their mates. They return to their jobs on Monday and are appalled when someone gets shot when they're contributing to the drug culture of crime in the region. Good post though. 

 

2 minutes ago, Chip Butty said:

Big ups to da’ sowja, who was nearly shot and killed, who then ran past a dying child who subsequently died and our Sowja, refused point blank to help the 5-O who were trying to find the rat-slag-maggot who tried pop him but who did some kid instead, He’s no grass. Legend in the jug this kid. 

 

His Ma n’ Da must be well proud. 

 

Blap blap. When he's shivved he'll be with the angles 

[dockers_strike]

7 minutes ago, Arniepie said:

We did when alcohol was illegal

 

We have decades of evidence that the lock them up and throw away the key approach clearly doesn't work.

Talking about the US because I dont recollect any prohibition in the UK?

 

Im all for trying to rehabilitate crims but that relies on at least two conditions: 1, the crim is willing to be rehabilitated and reform and not just 'join the programme' to get early release and 2, crims serve their time, yes, as punishment, and dont get out after serving half of their term.

 

We're too fucking soft on crims in this country (UK) especially the hardened type.

[TheSire]

13 minutes ago, Strontium said:

 

Any and all definitions of normal apply.

 

When you criminalise normal human activity, you will create criminals.

 

You could criminalise bread tomorrow, and people would be killing each other over slices of toast.

Only if the toaster dial was turned up beyond level 7/10

[Anubis]

45 minutes ago, Baresi said:

And it can't be classed as Manslaughter as it was premeditated, correct?

Yes. Murder requires the intention to kill or cause GBH. 

[Paulie Dangerously]

[Lurtz]

1 hour ago, Baresi said:

And it can't be classed as Manslaughter as it was premeditated, correct?

I find there's definitely something premeditatedish about firing a gun at someone. 

[Lurtz]

1 hour ago, Baresi said:

And it can't be classed as Manslaughter as it was premeditated, correct?

I find there's definitely something premeditatedish about firing a gun at someone. 

[Lurtz]

1 hour ago, Baresi said:

And it can't be classed as Manslaughter as it was premeditated, correct?

I find there's definitely something premeditatedish about firing a gun at someone. 

[littletedwest]

1 minute ago, Redder Lurtz said:

I find there's definitely something premeditatedish about firing a gun at someone. 

Do have any feelings about the premeditated aspect of firing a gun at someone?

[Arniepie]

39 minutes ago, dockers_strike said:

Talking about the US because I dont recollect any prohibition in the UK?

 

Im all for trying to rehabilitate crims but that relies on at least two conditions: 1, the crim is willing to be rehabilitated and reform and not just 'join the programme' to get early release and 2, crims serve their time, yes, as punishment, and dont get out after serving half of their term.

 

We're too fucking soft on crims in this country (UK) especially the hardened type.

I think you either believe in rehabilitation or you don't.

What's the alternative?lock people up for life?

Can you imagine the type of hell holes prisons would be 

 

[Kepler-186]

There’s a reason the book Zero Zero Zero by Roberto Saviano features Liverpool and London in the introduction.
 

The Liverpool crime families have an international rep, and the East End barrow boys and public school fops in the City use cocaine as a fuel to power them through the day and night while they wash the proceeds from the sale of the product. 
 

Rinse and repeat. 

 

 

[dockers_strike]

11 minutes ago, Arniepie said:

I think you either believe in rehabilitation or you don't.

What's the alternative?lock people up for life?

Can you imagine the type of hell holes prisons would be 

 

Some people need locking up for life. And no, believing or not in  rehabilitation isnt the question. It's whether crims are prepared to be rehabilitated and reform their ways.

[Antynwa]

53 minutes ago, Arniepie said:

Poverty is a huge factor but there are other issues involved.

Education,lack of opportunities etc

Like I said yesterday its hardly a coincidence that crime, drugs and violent are much worse in deprived areas than more prosperous places.

Then how come the majority of the population within the same economical, societal and opportunity demographic of which we are talking about are law abiding? I am feeling very conscious of the fact that I do not want to trivialize issues that do affect life chances of people and how that impacts.

 

But kids are being stabbed by other kids, kids are being shot in their own home.  To indicate wider economical and societal challenges are a key cause of this actually does a disservice to the wider population who are law abiding, talented and ambitious who live lives in spite of the shared challenges.

 

We as a city have to change how we glamorize this underworld of drugs, knives and take ownership of the problem. The government aren't going to help, so there needs to be a concerted multi agency approach to this.

 

It angers me beyond belief, we like to think of ourselves as better, we take pride in our city and shout down any criticism with gusto. It's been like this for years, its poignant that the Rhys Jones anniversary has come around and absolutely fuck all has changed since. 

 

 

 

 

 

[Arniepie]

5 minutes ago, Antynwa said:

Then how come the majority of the population within the same economical, societal and opportunity demographic of which we are talking about are law abiding? I am feeling very conscious of the fact that I do not want to trivialize issues that do affect life chances of people and how that impacts.

 

But kids are being stabbed by other kids, kids are being shot in their own home.  To indicate wider economical and societal challenges are a key cause of this actually does a disservice to the wider population who are law abiding, talented and ambitious who live lives in spite of the shared challenges.

 

We as a city have to change how we glamorize this underworld of drugs, knives and take ownership of the problem. The government aren't going to help, so there needs to be a concerted multi agency approach to this.

 

It angers me beyond belief, we like to think of ourselves as better, we take pride in our city and shout down any criticism with gusto. It's been like this for years, its poignant that the Rhys Jones anniversary has come around and absolutely fuck all has changed since. 

 

 

 

 

 

Because like I said its not a simple issue.

I know a lad who had a decent job and got mixed up in and ended up doing 20 years.

It's like asking why when 2 people come from poor backgrounds one ends up doing well and one ends up in the gutter.

I don't think there are simple answers but I think when you.go to war on your own people you shouldn't expect a rosy ending

 

[Arniepie]

15 minutes ago, dockers_strike said:

Some people need locking up for life. And no, believing or not in  rehabilitation isnt the question. It's whether crims are prepared to be rehabilitated and reform their ways.

Can't say I disagree. 

The killer of Sarah everard for example should spend the rest of his life inside but does that mean locking every murderer up for life?

[TheSire]

10 minutes ago, Antynwa said:

Then how come the majority of the population within the same economical, societal and opportunity demographic of which we are talking about are law abiding? I am feeling very conscious of the fact that I do not want to trivialize issues that do affect life chances of people and how that impacts.

 

But kids are being stabbed by other kids, kids are being shot in their own home.  To indicate wider economical and societal challenges are a key cause of this actually does a disservice to the wider population who are law abiding, talented and ambitious who live lives in spite of the shared challenges.

 

We as a city have to change how we glamorize this underworld of drugs, knives and take ownership of the problem. The government aren't going to help, so there needs to be a concerted multi agency approach to this.

 

It angers me beyond belief, we like to think of ourselves as better, we take pride in our city and shout down any criticism with gusto. It's been like this for years, its poignant that the Rhys Jones anniversary has come around and absolutely fuck all has changed since. 

 

 

 

 

 

Just because most people don't deal drugs or are involved in gangs doesn't mean there isn't a clear correlation. 

 

Its a lot more likely that poorer kids will be easier to pull into that shitty world because they see no hope and an opportunity for easy money and what they perceive to be a glamour filled world.

 

People who are better off have more to lose and live a more comfortable life so they're much less likely to risk losing relative comfort for a quick few grand.

 

Most people regardless of social standing are law abiding and have no interest in getting involved with organised crime but there's still a strong link between economic status and crime.

 

We can't fix this ourselves. This drugs business is highly lucrative. People don't just give up power because someone taps them on the shoulder and asks them to stop selling drugs.

 

It'll only go away with BOTH a different legal approach and a fairer society without inequality and the working classes being fucked by each successive government. 

[Captain Turdseye]

This shit makes me glad I moved away. In the little town where I live now, there’s outrage on Facebook when there’s an incident of fly tipping. 
 

Drugs are still readily available though. 

[johnsusername]

17 minutes ago, Captain Turdseye said:

This shit makes me glad I moved away. In the little town where I live now, there’s outrage on Facebook when there’s an incident of fly tipping. 
 

Drugs are still readily available though. 

Should be hung, drawn and quartered. 

[dockers_strike]

21 minutes ago, Arniepie said:

Can't say I disagree. 

The killer of Sarah everard for example should spend the rest of his life inside but does that mean locking every murderer up for life?

It's a pertinent question, is one life more valuable than other so the sentencing should be far harsher?

 

I dont profess to know the right answer to such a profound question. However, some of these crimes are seriously heinous acts of depravity and \ or outright cruelty.

 

Should every murderer be locked up for life? Im not sure but Im tending towards I dont think so because there might be some mitigating circumstances.

 

What I do think, at the moment, is multiple acts of murder by the same person or violent murder should see the perp serving a very long time.

[johnsusername]

[Captain Willard]

5 hours ago, lifetime fan said:

As I said, you are deliberately conflating two (actually more) completely separate issues. 
 

‘Mexico’ is a completely different issue to tory government policy here directly causing an increase in antisocial behaviour/drug use/misuse of drug deaths/knife crime etc. 

 

Careful, someone might think you might have a reason to try and deliberately conflate the two. 

I think my views are pretty clear but to repeat, I think this is about personal choice, consequences and culpability. 10,000s of mainly teenage kids die in Mexico every year because of the illegal drugs trade and our seemingly insatiable Western appetite for cocaine. That is undeniable. If the drugs trade was wholly legalised in every country in the world of course these kids wouldn’t die but that’s never going to happen in our lifetime so it’s not an option.

 

However what we have seen in the US is that 750,000 healthy people died in the last 15 years because opioids were legally supplied to them by the medical profession colluding with big pharmaceutical companies to make profits but that’s a different debate.

 

Where all of us (myself included) have a choice right now is to stop buying illegal recreational drugs. I'm not talking about or trying to shame addicts, I'm talking about your average Joe who buys a few cheeky grams for a night out. We saw with South Africa in the 1980s that mass consumer boycotts work and if people associated their weekend recreational drug use with the deaths of teenagers in Mexico (and sometimes here like this awful murder) then maybe just maybe this carnage would start to end.  But people don't want to make that association because it’s not comfortable or convenient. We live in an age where everything bad that happens is somebody else’s fault, generally the Tories, Brexit or the Americans.

 

In the last 20 years, up to 6 million people have died in the Congo wars funded mainly the West’s demand for rare earth metals but we still relentlessly buy new phones, laptops and now electric cars. We are killing the planet with carbon dioxide emissions from aviation but we still buy £25 flights to go to stag dos in easterrn europe. We, us, me and you are responsible for all of this shit happening around us but we’d much rather blame somebody else.

 

So when I say that the reason gangsters are running around our cities killing innocent kids is because the great British public increasingly buy their drugs for a night out, I am not conflating or avoiding anything, I am pointing out an uncomfortable truth.  Our personal behavior has consequences on the other side of the world but I acutely aware I am shouting into the void. A minority of people don’t want to hear it hence the childish personal abuse and negs on here though I've hard far worse when I've bought this subject up in pubs in the square mile. 

[an tha]

I see they have made an arrest over that little girls killer...some rat from Huyton.

[Kepler-186]

Article about Birkenhead’s heroin crisis in the early 80s from The Guardian in 2004, and more recently in The Post about Bootle’s, again in the 80s. 

The Post article mentions Dr John Marks, and the Mersey model of addressing the problem. 
 

Chasing The Dragons is an account of how Merseyside Police reacted in Birkenhead. 
 

Both places, like Liverpool and Merseyside overall in the 80s, had record high unemployment as people were thrown on

the scrap heap in the wake of Thatcher’s “modernisation” economic reforms. 

 

Guess people should’ve shown some personal responsibility and got  on their bike, if it hadn’t been stolen by a smack head. 

https://amp.theguardian.com/theobserver/2004/may/30/features.magazine27

 

https://www.livpost.co.uk/p/how-do-you-tackle-a-heroin-crisis?r=7i95q&s=r&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web&utm_source=direct

[Ezekiel 25:17]

3 hours ago, Paulie Dangerously said:

 

What's on the toast though? 

 

 

Conversation being increasingly pulled towards curing drug use as a society. My initial comment was intended that individuals have the choice to contribute or not to the drug culture. Every weekend you have once a week users flooding the city centre sharing a bag with their mates. They return to their jobs on Monday and are appalled when someone gets shot when they're contributing to the drug culture of crime in the region. Good post though. 

 

 

Blap blap. When he's shivved he'll be with the angles 

BEANS.