Sevilla (a) CL - Match Thread

[Barnesey]

You do realise what the word 'probably' means, right? Stop taking things literally when they are not posted in such a way.

 

Grow up. Everyone knows what you're saying. Stop trying to hide behind semantics

[Guest Pistonbroke]

Grow up. Everyone knows what you're saying. Stop trying to hide behind semantics

 

I'm really not. But thanks for the irony. 

[El Rojo]

In the cold light of day, we probably deserved everything we got for Bobby's no-look open goal finish.

[G Richards]

Still not happy about the second half collapse the day after. Fortunately going through is still in our hands though stupidly we’ve made it harder than it needed to be. If we progress we have the attack to scare anyone, but at the same time we have the defence to encourage everyone. I actually think we will do better against a better team because they will expect to take us on and win, and that will give us the space to play our game.

 

There’s not a lot to say about last night that hasn’t been said. Everything good and everything bad was on display. The match represented this team in a nutshell.

 

We have to move on and turn up for the Chelsea game. They look strong at the moment.

[Jockey]

I have been trying to think of another team that has had to pull two players off the pitch in the space of a month because their heads had gone. 

 

But i cannot think of one! That is seriously worrying - two players, who've needed to be subbed because they have been shot - within a month. 

 

Five times we have lost a 2 goal (or more) lead - that doesn't happen very often to teams, I can't think of any other team that has lost 2 goal leads 5 times in 3 seasons.

 

Beating teams in high pressure matches is not displaying a winning mentality - I think it is playing well. Our mentality is worrying - and that is not changing with a formation, or a manager, it will change when stronger players are brought in.

 

That is what i think. Don't know who they are, where they play. But I think our mental strength has proven time and time again, to be weak. 

[VERBAL DIARRHEA]

I have been trying to think of another team that has had to pull two players off the pitch in the space of a month because their heads had gone. 

 

But i cannot think of one! That is seriously worrying - two players, who've needed to be subbed because they have been shot - within a month. 

 

Five times we have lost a 2 goal (or more) lead - that doesn't happen very often to teams, I can't think of any other team that has lost 2 goal leads 5 times in 3 seasons.

 

Beating teams in high pressure matches is not displaying a winning mentality - I think it is playing well. Our mentality is worrying - and that is not changing with a formation, or a manager, it will change when stronger players are brought in.

 

That is what i think. Don't know who they are, where they play. But I think our mental strength has proven time and time again, to be weak.

 

Agree, you only had to read Moreno's comment about how they were thinking at half time, negatively.

[3 Stacks]

I have been trying to think of another team that has had to pull two players off the pitch in the space of a month because their heads had gone. 

 

But i cannot think of one! That is seriously worrying - two players, who've needed to be subbed because they have been shot - within a month. 

 

Five times we have lost a 2 goal (or more) lead - that doesn't happen very often to teams, I can't think of any other team that has lost 2 goal leads 5 times in 3 seasons.

 

Beating teams in high pressure matches is not displaying a winning mentality - I think it is playing well. Our mentality is worrying - and that is not changing with a formation, or a manager, it will change when stronger players are brought in.

 

That is what i think. Don't know who they are, where they play. But I think our mental strength has proven time and time again, to be weak. 

 

It's mostly a tactical issue. Saying the players are mentally weak or lack balls is a cop out and supposes there is no other fix than to get better players, which simply can't be true. We have an objectively decent squad, yet are probably the worst team in Europe at holding leads.

 

We've seen the scenario time and time again: We gain a lead, drop deep into a supposed "shape" where we try to play on the counter, we get totally pegged back and invariably concede. 

 

This happens so often. 

[dockers_strike]

You expect some from your captain.

 

I do not disagree with that but if Henderson shows leadership does that stop Moreno having a mare and giving away a stupid free kick and a penalty. Does it stop the Sevilla player being unmarked for the last goal when we mark zonally, does it change the team tactics that let Banega run around free to run the show in the 2nd half. At the end of the day the whole team including the manager need to show leadership is the point I am making.

[Jockey]

It's mostly a tactical issue. Saying the players are mentally weak or lack balls is a cop out and supposes there is no other fix than to get better players, which simply can't be true. We have an objectively decent squad, yet are probably the worst team in Europe at holding leads.

 

We've seen the scenario time and time again: We gain a lead, drop deep into a supposed "shape" where we try to play on the counter, we get totally pegged back and invariably concede. 

 

This happens so often. 

 

Sorry mate, completely disagree! It isn't tactics - no tactical awareness can legislate or accommodate a team who surrender the initiative and lack leadership. When teams are in their face, they wilt. And they have done for a number of years (this mentality was evident under Kenny). 

 

I am very carefully pointing out that getting in new players such as a 'DM' or a keeper will not solve this. For example I'd say Henderson offers more as a player than Lucas, but who do you think would cope with the second half onslaught better? 

 

Not quite sure how tactics are at fault when the team were 3 nil up. As usual people see what they want - and confirmation bias takes over. 

 

I think the evidence points to a mentality problem - more than tactics, more than no DM, more than VVD, a new keeper, a striker. 

[3 Stacks]

Sorry mate, completely disagree! It isn't tactics - no tactical awareness can legislate or accommodate a team who surrender the initiative and lack leadership. When teams are in their face, they wilt. And they have done for a number of years (this mentality was evident under Kenny). 

 

I am very carefully pointing out that getting in new players such as a 'DM' or a keeper will not solve this. For example I'd say Henderson offers more as a player than Lucas, but who do you think would cope with the second half onslaught better? 

 

Not quite sure how tactics are at fault when the team were 3 nil up. As usual people see what they want - and confirmation bias takes over. 

 

I think the evidence points to a mentality problem - more than tactics, more than no DM, more than VVD, a new keeper, a striker. 

 

0-3 up or not, we were never ever in control of that game. We scored from a ball over the top and two dreadfully defended set-pieces. In terms of the actual play they were miles better than us, regardless of the score. This was unbelievably apparent. They had nearly 3/4's of the possession and were creating clear-cut chances. It's incredible for a big club like us to be dominated to such an extent by a side no one would consider elite.

 

Frankly, if you watched that entire game, not just the second half, and believed there wasn't an issue with tactics, it's you who is biased.

[Tony Moanero]

Still not happy about the second half collapse, as I was convinced we would end up losing 4-3 and didn't.

[Jockey]

0-3 up or not, we were never ever in control of that game. We scored from a ball over the top and two dreadfully defended set-pieces. In terms of the actual play they were miles better than us, regardless of the score. This was unbelievably apparent. They had nearly 3/4's of the possession and were creating clear-cut chances. It's incredible for a big club like us to be dominated to such an extent by a side no one would consider elite.

 

Frankly, if you watched that entire game, not just the second half, and believed there wasn't an issue with tactics, it's you who is biased.

 

As I said, not judging this on one game, I am looking at a number of games over the past few seasons alone and there seems to be a lot more evidence to support the argument for a problem with our mental strength - than the tactics. 

 

I did watch the game. I also watched the other games we lost 2 goal leads, Bournmouth, Southampton, Newcastle and Southampton - games we were in complete control of. 

 

I saw the final - a game we were in complete control over until the second half. None of those games were down to tactics - but the mentality and inability to withstand a team getting at them and putting them under pressure. The only common denominator in all these games is the way we lost control - tactically we were in complete control. 

 

I don't see it as Klopps fault - yet in a way it is as he has seen this as much as we have and yet still plays the same players with the same shortcomings, so not because of his tactics or the shape of the team. If you watched the game last night and thought any of their goals were down to tactics - then, fine. I disagree. Interestingly prior to the game last night they showed the Spartak game where Sevilla had been caught out up the pitch, and suggested Liverpool hit them on the break - which we did! 

[3 Stacks]

You seem desperate for it to be Klopps fault - and in a way it is, but not because of his tactics or his shape. If you watched the game last night and thought any of their goals were down to tactics - then, fine. I disagree. 

 

If you can explain to me why it was good tactics to let them have the ball for the entire game and try to defend deep with a back four made up of a right back who isn't a right back, a lost cause, a mid-table Bundesliga player and a player who didn't play all year last year because the manager didn't rate him, then go ahead. I'll wait.

 

I'm not desperate for it to be Klopp's fault. I think it's entirely apparent that it was. And I think there is a pattern emerging in these defeats where we drop deep and subsequently get cut open. The shape is wrong, it's that simple.

[VERBAL DIARRHEA]

As I said, not judging this on one game, I am looking at a number of games over the past few seasons alone and there seems to be a lot more evidence to support the argument for a problem with our mental strength - than the tactics.

 

I did watch the game. I also watched the other games we lost 2 goal leads, Bournmouth, Southampton, Newcastle and Southampton - games we were in complete control of.

 

I saw the final - a game we were in complete control over until the second half. None of those games were down to tactics - but the mentality and inability to withstand a team getting at them and putting them under pressure. The only common denominator in all these games is the way we lost control - tactically we were in complete control.

 

I don't see it as Klopps fault - yet in a way it is as he has seen this as much as we have and yet still plays the same players with the same shortcomings, so not because of his tactics or the shape of the team. If you watched the game last night and thought any of their goals were down to tactics - then, fine. I disagree. Interestingly prior to the game last night they showed the Spartak game where Sevilla had been caught out up the pitch, and suggested Liverpool hit them on the break - which we did!

 

Certain players should have gone years ago, the fact they are still here speaks volumes. They don't have it mentally or ability wise. Wether the lack of money or loyalty has stopped the manager replacing them I don't know. But there are better players out there that others have bought than we have, not spending fortunes either. The AOC signing answers a lot of questions for me, we did not need him, committee signing? Appeasement? We should have a head scout who reports to the manager, who in turn should ask the money men yay or nay for the player if he fancies them.

 

You hear Klopp has a say, then you hear he gets players he doesn't want, fuck knows what is true.

[TheHowieLama]

Personally I feel that Pistonbroke could do a little more in the dressing room in these moments.

[Jockey]

If you can explain to me why it was good tactics to let them have the ball for the entire game and try to defend deep with a back four made up of a right back who isn't a right back, a lost cause, a mid-table Bundesliga player and a player who didn't play all year last year because the manager didn't rate him, then go ahead. I'll wait.

 

I'm not desperate for it to be Klopp's fault. I think it's entirely apparent that it was. And I think there is a pattern emerging in these defeats where we drop deep and subsequently get cut open. The shape is wrong, it's that simple.

 

As I say - you are using last night as an example, then suggest it is a pattern. Yet last night was not the same as any of the other examples I gave you. That is obvious and clear as day. There is no pattern of dropping deep because that hasn't happen in 'these defeats' that is a just not true. 

 

I'd love to know what your alternatives to the defence last night was? Lovren played well, as did Klvan and Gomez, as did Karius actually. 

 

Two brain farts are not bad tactics - they are brain farts. 

[3 Stacks]

Just read that we have gone from a winning position to losing or drawing 21 times under Klopp alone...

 

Yeah, but it's not a tactical issue apparently. Must just be a coincidence. 

[Lee909]

And we also got more points from a loosing position last year under Klopp

[Jockey]

Yeah, but it's not a tactical issue apparently. Must just be a coincidence. 

 

No, it isn't. It will be the result of a problem. One you feel is the tactics. 

[Hades]

3 Stacks is to Klopp as Code 72 is to Rafa.

[TheHowieLama]

And the forum is full of half empty glassers...

[VERBAL DIARRHEA]

I don't think yesterday was tactics myself, I think its a mentality problem that is a problem throughout the club, as in if you reward mediocrity then you will get mediocrity.

Bingo!

[Lario]

I'm Brian Of Nazareth, and so's my wife!

[3 Stacks]

3 Stacks is to Klopp as Code 72 is to Rafa.

 

I criticize Klopp when he deserves it. Excuse me for not believing it to be ok for this team to have 30% possession and to look like cannon fodder against only the 5th best team in Spain. 

[Guest]

Still not happy about the second half collapse, as I was convinced we would end up losing 4-3 and didn't.

My stream stopped at 3-3 and I was convinced it was because the person streaming it had seen a fourth goal go in and switched it off.