Carra

[lebron]

Because your "analysis" is completely subjective, and largely imo, wrong.

 

Nail your colours to the mast then, what part is wrong. Is it the strengths or the weaknesses, and which ones?

 

Football is subjective, we've established that, as neither caps nor medals count:whistle:

[Carvalho Diablo]

Nail your colours to the mast then, what part is wrong.

 

The words.

[AussieRed]

Because your "analysis" is completely subjective, and largely imo, wrong.

 

Let me know which part is wrong. Probably the most subjective part of the "analysis" is around his strengths. But, I am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.

[lebron]

The words.

 

With such eloquence it's no wonder you've racked up 3000+ posts in a little over a year... Speaking of which, I've amassed 50+ about Carra now... Think I'll call it a night.

 

Aussiered knows though...

[Carvalho Diablo]

With such eloquence it's no wonder you've racked up 3000+ posts in a little over a year... Speaking of which, I've amassed 50+ about Carra now... Think I'll call it a night.

 

Aussiered knows though...

 

Ouch.

 

3001

[dirk grout]

With such eloquence it's no wonder you've racked up 3000+ posts in a little over a year... Speaking of which, I've amassed 50+ about Carra now... Think I'll call it a night.

 

Aussiered knows though...

 

Get to bed. (This is not a joke).

[AussieRed]

The words.

 

Wow. That was embarrassing. Probably would have been better to not respond at all.

[piscinin]

Fair enough. He is making big mistakes. He is 34, he will not get better. He was brilliant he is not brilliant anymore. It's time to move on. He should be dropped for Skrtel or Coates. If the question is: Who should play CB for Liverpool? The answer is: Not Carra.

 

Current weaknesses

1. Little aerial ability
   
2. Slow
   
3. Gets pushed off ball
   
4. Wastes possession
   
5. Plays deep
   
6. Leaves his feet frequently taking him out of play
   
7. Doesn't like being rested which slows young player development
   

 

Current strengths

1. Vocal presence
   
2. Still brilliant at last second blocks etc
   
3. Organises defence
   

 

Objectively speaking. I think the weaknesses outweigh the strengths. If anyone can argue with those points, I would be very surprised.

 

Whoscored.com derive a player profile based on optastats. Carragher's is quite funny.

 

 

BTW Good post, I don't agree with a great many of the weaknesses you cite though. For example, he's not as slow as made out and the way we defend it's not an issue as he almost always plays as the sweeper/last man. So declining pace, which TBH I haven't even seen, is a non-issue.

 

Likewise with going to ground, he does do it, but unlike Riise, he does it in areas and at times when it's not a problem.

 

You didn't mention that if he gets isolated one on one, in space, he is easily turned and that whenever we change our defensive scheme, it takes him longer than others to adapt.

 

Carragher has in the recent past started the season slowly. None moreso than 09-10; he was atrocious then, played like a drunk. But he settled down and did OK by seasons end. This season will be the same I'm sure.

 

The reality is that while the team is still adapting to this new scheme and the new players, there's no point buggering around with the defence. Carragher will improve on his performances of the last couple of games. The rest of the team will improve and we'll be in a much better position to make changes in defence, which will in themselves require changes in how we setup etc. There's no point trying to change everything at the same time.

[Carvalho Diablo]

Wow. That was embarrassing. Probably would have been better to not respond at all.

 

Get a sense of humour mate, now I'm off to bed n'all.

 

All the best.

[stringvest]

Well, no; what you said was that another poster "believed Shankly's hype".

 

I'm sad probably because I'm reaching an age same as my dad where there's a certain intolerance even to implied criticism of past greats; say anything about his heroes and he'd say I wasn't big enough for a thick eat!

 

In fact, bollocks to it; I'm putting Raisbeck in my list.

 

You know what I was referring to there though - the invitation Shankly gave to the pressmen when Yeats signed ' come and take a walk around my new centre-half', and the referral to Yeats as a 'colossus'. That was great stuff from Shankly, and it paints a strong picture of him, and while Yeats did a fantastic job for the club in dragging them from second division into a team to be reckoned with, imo he wasn't as good as Carragher. He was less mobile and not as good on the ball for a start.

[AussieRed]

Whoscored.com derive a player profile based on optastats. Carragher's is quite funny.

 

 

BTW Good post, I don't agree with a great many of the weaknesses you cite though. For example, he's not as slow as made out and the way we defend it's not an issue as he almost always plays as the sweeper/last man. So declining pace, which TBH I haven't even seen, is a non-issue.

 

Likewise with going to ground, he does do it, but unlike Riise, he does it in areas and at times when it's not a problem.

 

You didn't mention that if he gets isolated one on one, in space, he is easily turned and that whenever we change our defensive scheme, it takes him longer than others to adapt.

 

Carragher has in the recent past started the season slowly. None moreso than 09-10; he was atrocious then, played like a drunk. But he settled down and did OK by seasons end. This season will be the same I'm sure.

 

The reality is that while the team is still adapting to this new scheme and the new players, there's no point buggering around with the defence. Carragher will improve on his performances of the last couple of games. The rest of the team will improve and we'll be in a much better position to make changes in defence, which will in themselves require changes in how we setup etc. There's no point trying to change everything at the same time.

 

Can't agree with the pace issue. Case in point, Altidore walking past him for USA v England.

 

However, I thank you for posting a logical response to my post. Your point is valid. He did seem to get better as the year progressed. The question is: Do we want to wait for this to occur when he is already 34 years old?

 

From a strategic point of view, the time is now. Skrtel can not be that poor, that he can't be used as a transitional player to play until Coates is ready.

[kalasoma]

I'm sure someone has pointed this out already, but if Carragher, like Ferdinand (and less like Terry) had won a few league titles, then I think we'd be able to forgive his weaknesses. I just am not into this "Carra out" cry at the moment. 4 games into the season for pete's sake. It's too damn early.

[kalasoma]

Can't agree with the pace issue. Case in point, Altidore walking past him for USA v England.

 

However, I thank you for posting a logical response to my post. Your point is valid. He did seem to get better as the year progressed. The question is: Do we want to wait for this to occur when he is already 34 years old?

 

From a strategic point of view, the time is now. Skrtel can not be that poor, that he can't be used as a transitional player to play until Coates is ready.

 

If I remember correctly, Skrtel was beaten for pace against Aaron Lennon last season at White Hart Lane which gave them a last minute winner. So I don't see how having Skrtel instead of Carragher would serve us. Although, he did score against Tottenham in the same fixture, so that was a plus.

 

I feel Coates still isn't ready yet, but could be used instead of Carragher in our match against Brighton in the CC fixture. Might be a better way to ease him into English football.

[moof]

If I remember correctly, Skrtel was beaten for pace against Aaron Lennon last season at White Hart Lane which gave them a last minute winner. So I don't see how having Skrtel instead of Carragher would serve us. Although, he did score against Tottenham in the same fixture, so that was a plus.

 

I feel Coates still isn't ready yet, but could be used instead of Carragher in our match against Brighton in the CC fixture. Might be a better way to ease him into English football.

 

I thought it was the Konch who Lennon breezed past to score??

[piscinin]

Can't agree with the pace issue. Case in point, Altidore walking past him for USA v England.

 

However, I thank you for posting a logical response to my post. Your point is valid. He did seem to get better as the year progressed. The question is: Do we want to wait for this to occur when he is already 34 years old?

 

From a strategic point of view, the time is now. Skrtel can not be that poor, that he can't be used as a transitional player to play until Coates is ready.

 

I know what you mean but my point on pace was not that he has it, but that I haven't seen it declining and unlike england it's rarely an issue for us because we nowadays setup to avoid it becoming one.

 

For me, now is not the time, the time to ask the question is in 3 months. Once the team is settled we can then tweak the defence. And I really believe it will add a new dimension to our play. I'm really looking forward to it.

[kalasoma]

I thought it was the Konch who Lennon breezed past to score??

 

Paul bloody Konchesky. You're right. Skrtel wasn't anywhere near Lennon. My bad. Got my bald heads mixed up.

[moof]

Paul bloody Konchesky. You're right. Skrtel wasn't anywhere near Lennon. My bad. Got my bald heads mixed up.

 

Haha easily done, i've tried to wipe all memory of Konchesky being at the club. Alas, he'll be ingrained in my memory forever.

[AussieRed]

I know what you mean but my point on pace was not that he has it, but that I haven't seen it declining and unlike england it's rarely an issue for us because we nowadays setup to avoid it becoming one.

 

For me, now is not the time, the time to ask the question is in 3 months. Once the team is settled we can then tweak the defence. And I really believe it will add a new dimension to our play. I'm really looking forward to it.

 

Alot of games get played in 3 months. For our sake I hope it's not too late.

[moof]

Alot of games get played in 3 months. For our sake I hope it's not too late.

 

It's Carragher for fucks sake, not Titus Bramble.

[piscinin]

Alot of games get played in 3 months. For our sake I hope it's not too late.

 

Obviously, if he inexplicably degenerates to Josemi levels of performance things will change, but his mistakes are like the buses, 2 or 3 come along at once and then there's none forever. His limitations are a bigger issue for me than his average performance level.

[s(k)aturation]

Stick away just 2 or 3 of our 16 goal attempts, and Carra/the penalty is a relative non-issue.

 

Inability to finish will cost us more than the odd clumsy spot kick conceded, I'd say.

[billypilgrimnz]

Really hate all this shite. People shouldn't be putting players on all time lists when they're still playing. The only relevant question to be asked of carra at this moment in time is whether or not he should still be first choice. It is a valid question to ask, and anyone asking it isnt 'disrespecting a legend'. Also, who gives a fuck if hes better than yeats? Why the fuck are people arguing about that?

 

Exactly. Questioning the position of someone in the team is not disrespecting them. It's what any manager worth their salt does every single bloody week.

 

THis whole bullshit discussion has all come about because a certain subset of posters here are unable to divorce discussion about how the club is run from supporting the club itself.

 

The fact that where Carra ranks in the all-time greats is being used as an excuse to shut down discussion about whether he deserves a starting place right here right now is simply proof that some people simply aren't able to rationally discuss footballing matters when it comes to Liverpool, and thus probably shouldn't be frequenting a forum where discussion of footballing matters happens quite a bit.

[zigackly]

Well, that wasn't what you originally asked though was it. I advise you to reread the first post you made about the subject.

 

Actually it was exactly what I asked:

 

Tell me, which defenders amongst his contemporaries could you count on not to get beaten by Henry, Van Nistelrooy and Drogba?

[zigackly]

Continuation to my last post:

 

I've seen Torres (and Drogba) absolutely rip the piss out of most of those defenders you mentioned (not all of them were playing at the same time as Van Nistelrooy and Henry), and yet Torres has never had as good a season as the best seasons those three had. All of those players could score against any defence and beat any defender on their day, so to criticise Carra for being done by them is neither here nor there.

 

It's fair to criticise him for mistakes he makes, but let's at least try to be intellectually honest when discussing him in the context of his peers. For a few seasons under Benitez he was world class as a defender, despite his limitations on the ball. He's clearly not at that level any more, but don't try to whitewash his record just because you think it's time for a change now.

Edited September 12, 2011 by zigackly

[s(k)aturation]

Continuation to my last post:

 

I've seen Torres (and Drogba) absolutely rip the piss out of most of those defenders you mentioned (not all of them were playing at the same time as Van Nistelrooy and Henry), and yet Torres has never had as good a season as the best seasons those three had. All of those players could score against any defence and beat any defender on their day, so to criticise Carra for being done by them is neither here nor there.

 

It's fair to criticise him for mistakes he makes, but let's at least try to be intellectually honest when discussing him in the context of his peers. For a few seasons under Benitez he was world class as a defender, despite his limitations on the ball. He's clearly not at that level any more, but don't try to whitewash his record just because you think it's time for a change now.

 

Exactly, zigackly.

 

On that basis you could write off Vidic, who a few times has been made to look a complete simeon by that also-ran Torres.