Carra

[AussieRed]

That's how I see it at the moment. Also, you've got to take into account that for mostly 7 years, the team has been set up in midfield to have a fair bit more protection in front of the two centre backs. We are now playing a more expansive game (thank fuck), the result being the back four will be more exposed. I think over the next 12 months he'll be played less and less, but some of the bile being spewed about a club legend from certain 'fans' is shocking.

 

Exactly right. Our CBs under Houllier and Rafa had very little space to cover. Under Houllier, we basically played a flat back 4 with CBs across the back line. Under Rafa, we played with two dedicated DMs who rarely played in the oppositions third.

 

IMHO our CBs have always been slightly overrated because of this. That is why Man U have always picked CBs with mobility and ability on the ball, same as Tottenham.

[lebron]

I want you to think carefully about what you're saying, because you're trying to tell me you could count on sides with those defenders not to concede goals against those strikers, and I don't think you've thought it through.

 

Well, that wasn't what you originally asked though was it. I advise you to reread the first post you made about the subject.

 

I'll comment anyway.... I just said that the defenders I mentioned generally looked a lot better when playing against said strikers. Don't think there's much wrong with that to be honest. I've already established that I rate some of Carra's qualities highly, and his organising at the back and reading of the play may have spared him and our team further humiliation by the likes of Henry. But if you want to make it about the team, should you not then include the job Hamann, Sissoko, Mascherano and Lucas has done to make Carra look better than what he really is too?:| Playing a deep defensive line helps in that respect too...

[goatboy59]

Tottenham ha ha ha ha ha ha!

[goatboy59]

Well, that wasn't what you originally asked though was it. I advise you to reread the first post you made about the subject.

 

I'll comment anyway.... I just said that the defenders I mentioned generally looked a lot better when playing against said strikers. Don't think there's much wrong with that to be honest. I've already established that I rate some of Carra's qualities highly, and his organising at the back and reading of the play may have spared him and our team further humiliation by the likes of Henry. But if you want to make it about the team, should you not then include the job Hamann, Sissoko, Mascherano and Lucas has done to make Carra look better than what he really is too?:| Playing a deep defensive line helps in that respect too...

 

But not Hyypia eh?

[kalasoma]

I wouldn't think that any of Carragher or his contemporaries, in general, would fare well against Henry, van Nistelrooy or Drogba. Carragher v Drogba? Carra looked great against him in the last two matches we've played though.

[lebron]

Either your're implying that woodgate and king are better than carra, or you're raising the completely fucking irrelevant point that the various fucktards to manage england over the years prefer to pick spurs players over liverpool ones. Either way, its a total waste of everyones time.

 

Granted I've not seen too many games with said players involved, but both are physically (irony I know - at least in theory then) better equipped to deal with the Premier League attackers I mentioned earlier. Must admit I have a soft spot for King. I think would've been regularly 3rd choice for England, even pushing Terry for a starting spot if he wasn't Aggeresque injurywise. He's got (or had) both the pace and the leap to deal with most attackers both on the ground and in the air. Decent on the ball as well, could be coloured by the fact that he always seems/seemed to play well against us too.

 

Woodgate wasn't courted by half of Europe for no reason either, he was majestic for Leeds before injury (or lifestyle, or both?) took it's toll. He'll still have games now, probably completely unfit, where he'll dominate because of his timing and heading. Not qualified to rate them against each other, but it's a strange one that no England manager have rated Carra as highly as most of our Liverpudlian fanbase do. It couldn't possibly be because he's not quite as sensationally good as we/you think though, could it?:whistle:

[lebron]

But not Hyypia eh?

 

Of course. His lack of pace was probably one of the reasons we brought Hamann in, as we needed to protect him. I just think that Hyypia's physical presence and heading ability makes him quite a bit better defender than Carra (atleast in the league), and for those silly enough to appreciate ball control for a defender he was a bit better there too. They have/had pretty much the same strengths/weaknesses in other areas of the game.

 

Imagine if you could have paired Hyypia with Ferdinand for example, that would have been mouthwatering, as Sami was well better than that Serbian thug.

[AussieRed]

Either your're implying that woodgate and king are better than carra, or you're raising the completely fucking irrelevant point that the various fucktards to manage england over the years prefer to pick spurs players over liverpool ones. Either way, its a total waste of everyones time.

 

Don't know about Woodgate as he has never been healthy enough, but yes I think King was a better player than Carra. Before injuries cut him down I think only Sol Campbell would have been ahead of him. He had pace, strength, decent in the air and good on the ball.

[kalasoma]

I don't think being selected (or not) to play for England, is the benchmark by which a player's talent should be measured. Can we keep this to discussing players playing at club level since the issue of Carragher's performance was raised in relation to Saturday's match.

[Carvalho Diablo]

Not qualified to rate them against each other, but it's a strange one that no England manager have rated Carra as highly as most of our Liverpudlian fanbase do. It couldn't possibly be because he's not quite as sensationally good as we/you think though, could it?:whistle:

 

Can't really be arsed getting into the strengths and weaknesses of Jamie's play, but seriously, who gives a flying fuck what fucking England managers think ?!

 

What's the collective noun for a group of failures again...? Oh yeh, a fight cunt of spastics they all are.

[Guest ShoePiss]

Granted I've not seen too many games with said players involved, but both are physically (irony I know - at least in theory then) better equipped to deal with the Premier League attackers I mentioned earlier. Must admit I have a soft spot for King. I think would've been regularly 3rd choice for England, even pushing Terry for a starting spot if he wasn't Aggeresque injurywise. He's got (or had) both the pace and the leap to deal with most attackers both on the ground and in the air. Decent on the ball as well, could be coloured by the fact that he always seems/seemed to play well against us too.

 

Woodgate wasn't courted by half of Europe for no reason either, he was majestic for Leeds before injury (or lifestyle, or both?) took it's toll. He'll still have games now, probably completely unfit, where he'll dominate because of his timing and heading. Not qualified to rate them against each other, but it's a strange one that no England manager have rated Carra as highly as most of our Liverpudlian fanbase do. It couldn't possibly be because he's not quite as sensationally good as we/you think though, could it?:whistle:

 

Yeah that's it, we only rate him because he's Scouse. Same goes for Fowler and his international record proves your point very well.

 

Fucking hell.

[lebron]

I wouldn't think that any of Carragher or his contemporaries, in general, would fare well against Henry, van Nistelrooy or Drogba. Carragher v Drogba? Carra looked great against him in the last two matches we've played though.

 

Well, there's a reason why they were desperate to get hold of our treacherous no 9:-).

 

As I said, the players that weren't physically in awe of Henry/vns pace or Drogba's strength would be better equipped to deal with them. Ferdinand has/had the pace and the strength, so did King, and Terry/Carvalho were in tandem strong/quick enough to deal with those players reasonably well too (even Campbell/Keown). If Carra had been playing next to King or Ferdinand his flaws may have not been so obviuos, but as I said, I'd rather Hyypia then (and judging from the poll results pretty recently, so would 80 % on this site).

[lebron]

Yeah that's it, we only rate him because he's Scouse. Same goes for Fowler and his international record proves your point very well.

 

Fucking hell.

 

I actually work with the man mostly responsible for Robbie's decline (apart from himself that is) these days, but no way has Carra ever been close to the talent displayed by Robbie Fowler during the mid-90s, so pretty shit comparison really. The only real reason Fowler didn't earn shitload of caps was his lack of discipline/poor training, as none of the injuries he got should have taken the toll on him that they did. You could of course blame the club, its doctors and managers, but with the talent he had, he really only has himself to blame. He's third in my list of all-time favourite players though, so excuse me for being a bit dismissive...

[dirk grout]

Can't really be arsed getting into the strengths and weaknesses of Jamie's play, but seriously, who gives a flying fuck what fucking England managers think ?!

 

What's the collective noun for a group of failures again...? Oh yeh, a fight cunt of spastics they all are.

 

Lebron, read this. Especially the highlighted bit.

[kalasoma]

I actually work with the man mostly responsible for Robbie's decline (apart from himself that is) these days, but no way has Carra ever been close to the talent displayed by Robbie Fowler during the mid-90s, so pretty shit comparison really. The only real reason Fowler didn't earn shitload of caps was his lack of discipline/poor training, as none of the injuries he got should have taken the toll on him that they did. You could of course blame the club, its doctors and managers, but with the talent he had, he really only has himself to blame. He's third in my list of all-time favourite players though, so excuse me for being a bit dismissive...

 

I think this is in response to your using the fact that managers of England didn't rate Carragher as a means by which we could measure his talent. Fowler wasn't called up regularly, Carragher wasn't called up regularly. I think that's the comparison being made here.

[lebron]

Can't really be arsed getting into the strengths and weaknesses of Jamie's play, but seriously, who gives a flying fuck what fucking England managers think ?!

 

What's the collective noun for a group of failures again...? Oh yeh, a fight cunt of spastics they all are.

 

Don't you think they are relevant to our club's chances of getting back into the top 4, nevermind the contention for the league then?

 

Wasn't meaning to bring the England thing up anyway, but it's not one boss that has neglected him, it's 4 or 5 isn't it? Oh, and I would think what England managers think (as they are generally people that have been in the game a while, some of them successful even) is just as relevant as "Italians" that was bandied about earlier in the thread. Not that you were the one bringing that up...

 

If you can't use medals or caps or clean sheets, a +/- column to judge a player, you're really only left with what you see. I see a player that has kept a pretty high standard up til the last year and a half, but who we now have to upgrade on to keep up with the three leading clubs in the league. If that pisses on somebody's chips, I'll survive that (even if I think all the red bars are a bit undeserved:()

[AussieRed]

I don't think being selected (or not) to play for England, is the benchmark by which a player's talent should be measured. Can we keep this to discussing players playing at club level since the issue of Carragher's performance was raised in relation to Saturday's match.

 

Fair enough. He is making big mistakes. He is 34, he will not get better. He was brilliant he is not brilliant anymore. It's time to move on. He should be dropped for Skrtel or Coates. If the question is: Who should play CB for Liverpool? The answer is: Not Carra.

 

Unfortunately, the errors he makes speaks to his physical decline. He is grabbing players more frequently than ever because he cannot match them physically. He was doing this last year as well. He rarely ever contests the ball in the air. Against bigger forwards, he allows them to bring the ball down rather than attack the ball in the air. Sami had little pace, but his strength and aerial ability cut off many of the long balls that start attacks for teams like Stoke.

 

Current weaknesses

1. Little aerial ability
   
2. Slow
   
3. Gets pushed off ball
   
4. Wastes possession
   
5. Plays deep
   
6. Leaves his feet frequently taking him out of play
   
7. Doesn't like being rested which slows young player development
   

 

Current strengths

1. Vocal presence
   
2. Still brilliant at last second blocks etc
   
3. Organises defence
   

 

Objectively speaking. I think the weaknesses outweigh the strengths. If anyone can argue with those points, I would be very surprised.

[lebron]

Lebron, read this. Especially the highlighted bit.

 

I'll excuse myself by being way past bedtime (1.30 here) and being a 2nd language user for not understanding that line (or is it a joke?)

[Carvalho Diablo]

Don't you think they are relevant to our club's chances of getting back into the top 4, nevermind the contention for the league then?

 

 

Yes I do, but the England shit is not relevant in any way; never has been and never will be. Thank fuck.

[Carvalho Diablo]

Fair enough. He is making big mistakes. He is 34, he will not get better. He was brilliant he is not brilliant anymore. It's time to move on. He should be dropped for Skrtel or Coates. If the question is: Who should play CB for Liverpool? The answer is: Not Carra.

 

Unfortunately, the errors he makes speaks to his physical decline. He is grabbing players more frequently than ever because he cannot match them physically. He was doing this last year as well. He rarely ever contests the ball in the air. Against bigger forwards, he allows them to bring the ball down rather than attack the ball in the air. Sami had little pace, but his strength and aerial ability cut off many of the long balls that start attacks for teams like Stoke.

 

Current weaknesses

1. Little aerial ability
   
2. Slow
   
3. Gets pushed off ball
   
4. Wastes possession
   
5. Plays deep
   
6. Leaves his feet frequently taking him out of play
   
7. Doesn't like being rested which slows young player development
   

 

Current strengths

1. Vocal presence
   
2. Still brilliant at last second blocks etc
   
3. Organises defence
   

 

Objectively speaking. I think the weaknesses outweigh the strengths. If anyone can argue with those points, I would be very surprised.

 

Code lite and highly disrespectful.

[lebron]

I think this is in response to your using the fact that managers of England didn't rate Carragher as a means by which we could measure his talent. Fowler wasn't called up regularly, Carragher wasn't called up regularly. I think that's the comparison being made here.

 

I understood what he meant, I just disagreed with it. I'm not using England managers to slag Carra off either. I just think some of the praise and now sympathy handed out to Carra wouldn't have come so easily if it was an OOTer (our slovak friend being case in point), but again, my original post here was to comment on that Carra was among our greatest ever defenders. That's very high praise considering who's pulled on our shirt during the last decades. I don't think he's quite up there, while I'll gladly include Robbie next to Ian Rush among our best attackers. That Robbie's career didn't pan out the way it should have is probably mostly his own fault. Fowler was called up regularly until he got his first seriuos injury though... The fact that the Sheringham/Shearer partnership clicked at about the same time Robbie peaked probably delayed his time a bit, but if he had kept himself fit he would atleast have had 60 caps to his name.

[Guest ShoePiss]

I think this is in response to your using the fact that managers of England didn't rate Carragher as a means by which we could measure his talent. Fowler wasn't called up regularly, Carragher wasn't called up regularly. I think that's the comparison being made here.

 

Correct.

[AussieRed]

Code lite and highly disrespectful.

 

Is that sarcasm? How is that disrespectful? Let me know. I am a Carra fan but he is 34, it's time to move on. John Barnes may be my favourite player of all time but if he decided to lace up his boots again, I would not want him playing on our left wing.

 

Perhaps people should be more respectful to the club. What do I want? I want us to win....

[Carvalho Diablo]

Is that sarcasm? How is that disrespectful? Let me know. I am a Carra fan but he is 34, it's time to move on. John Barnes may be my favourite player of all time but if he decided to lace up his boots again, I would not want him playing on our left wing.

 

Perhaps people should be more respectful to the club. What do I want? I want us to win....

 

Because your "analysis" is completely subjective, and largely imo, wrong.

[lebron]

Code lite and highly disrespectful.

 

Haha, answer him properly before talking about being disrespectful! Love how that word gets bandied about too. It's a football player on the wane we're talking about here, not someones relative dying. Also, imagine the outcry if someone had been dishing out the sort of abuse to Carra that Lucas has gotten/still gets on here, a player that has done exactly the same thing Carra has been doing; his best for the club.