Immigration

[Jairzinho]

I didn't say it had pushed them down I said they had been kept low, in other words they hadn't risen in accordance with how a massive housing/building boom should dictate they should have done.

 

I've seen it first hand with polish mostly accepting less money then going rates and therefore undermining the going rates at the time

 

It's the arrogance of some though that has seen the rise of mongs like ukip, the ones in the middle like myself who can see the pros and cons just get swept to one side, you either want all foreign workers banned or unlimited immigration when the truth is most would like a bit of both

 

But is there any evidence that this would have actually happened?

 

I guess I just find the emphasis on immigration to be rather detracting from any scrutiny of those that actually make lots of money out of the housing/building market.

[Tyler Durden]

But is there any evidence that this would have actually happened?

 

I guess I just find the emphasis on immigration to be rather detracting from any scrutiny of those that actually make lots of money out of the housing/building market.

Evidence that wages would have risen higher?

 

It's supply and demand isn't it, if the market isn't flooded with labour (which in my experience will accept lower rates) then rates rise.

 

If anything that doesn't detract from the people making money it emphasises it because they are the ones which benefit mostly from cheaper labour.

[PestiRed]

Evidence that wages would have risen higher?

It's supply and demand isn't it, if the market isn't flooded with labour (which in my experience will accept lower rates) then rates rise.

If anything that doesn't detract from the people making money it emphasises it because they are the ones which benefit mostly from cheaper labour.

Wouldn't the demand have been filled from domestic labour? ie like the urban myths that hundreds of law students were quitting university to become plumbers in London

[Tyler Durden]

Wouldn't the demand have been filled from domestic labour? ie like the urban myths that hundreds of law students were quitting university to become plumbers in London

Well most firms don't want to pay to train people up although if the rates went higher then perhaps there would have been people from other industries moving into it but that all takes time and training, you can't just decide to be a plumber, in the mean time the rates should have risen.

 

Having a lack of labour would have forced firms to invest in more apprentices also I'd think.

[Strontium]

Immigrants from the 10 countries which joined the EU in 2004 contributed more to the UK than they took out in benefits, according to a new study.

 

They added £4.96bn more in taxes in the years to 2011 than they took out in public services.

 

That is according to the calculations of the report by University College London's Centre for Research and Analysis of Migration.

 

The analysis includes migrants' share of all public services costs.

 

It includes costs that increase when the population increases, such as health and education, and those that stay fixed, such as the armed forces and defence.

 

If the fixed costs are excluded, the net benefit of immigration from countries such as Poland, Hungary and the Czech Republic would more than double to £10.5bn.

 

"The net benefits of immigration from the rest of the European Union (the richer more developed countries) was £15bn, with full costs allocated, and £18bn without," wrote BBC Economics Editor Robert Peston in his blog.

 

Just confirming what some of us have been saying for years:

 

If anything, it's the opposite. Immigrants are net contributors to the economy.

I'm fairly confident that the stats will show that immigrants are net contributors to the economy

[Dr Arthur De Sabre]

The comparison of emigrants and immigrants is often unjust. My mate lives in Australia and he programs software for a mining company, there's only a couple of dozen people in the world who can do it and he's on mega bucks. There's a difference between that and letting 10,000 unskilled lads from Gateshead suddenly descend on Melbourne literally overnight to do low skilled work, undercut local wages and get full access to finite resources like healthcare and education. Eastern European Economic migration and immigration to an extent are different debates in my opinion, the former seems to go hand in hand with doing what's best for anyone who doesn't like to pay an honest wage, 'English people are lazy' translates as 'I enjoy the fruits of capitalism but the free market principle of supply and demand should apply to everyone else except me, therefore I won't attract people to a shit job with an extra three quid an hour - which I want for myself - I'll access this slave labour force instead and demonise the locals as an excuse for doing so'.

 

Really does depend on what you consider to be 'low skilled work' tho mate, hairdresser was listed on the skills shortages, plus plenty of the manual trade skills - plumbers, chippys etc. nothing to stop a Kid from l6 it Gateshead or mossside getting his skills up to scratch and coming over, but for the fact as far as I'm aware there is no longer. Building trade back home for an apprenticeship.

 

We've been well looked after over here, mainly due to my missus having good skills in a niche market, I'd been in IT for 7 years when we moved over, but was and still am competing against people with similar skills from India and Asia, I do slightly better due to English being my first language, though a lot of people still stare open mouthed if I talk to quickly due to my scouse accent.

 

Not so long ago, there was an advert over in Perth, for a job, with 'no Irish' specified, that's a fucking disgrace in the modern world.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

Pretty much how I see it, being from the construction industry and seeing first hand how wages have been kept pretty low by the influx of Eastern Europeans over the 12 or so years I've been in it and this during what was a massive boom in the construction industry (untill 2008/9 that is).

 

I'd best not say that too loud though or I might get called a little englander

That's not the full story, though.

 

As I recall from the "British jobs for British workers" bullshit from a few years back, wages were kept low by cunt bosses, blacklisting trade-unionists and circumventing local pay arrangements by bringing in workers from abroad (not just Eastern Europeans) and by a shithouse, corrupt, Tory-lite New Labour Government that maintained all the anti-union laws and were happier to join in with the xenophobia than to support workers in the struggle for decent pay and conditions.

 

For what it's worth, I work in the public sector and I haven't seen a real-terms pay rise in almost a decade - Hell, until we got 1% last April, I hadn't seen any pay rise since 2009.  It's not the immigrants who are keeping my pay low.

[Dr Nowt]

Not so long ago, there was an advert over in Perth, for a job, with 'no Irish' specified, that's a fucking disgrace in the modern world.

 

Today:

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-29929333

[AngryOfTuebrook]

Hopefully all 3 parties will batter the UKIPs with that over the next few months - the live debates should be interesting to watch him squirm. I'd imagine his response will be 'it'd have been more if we were more selective' but they should be able to dismantle him .

I'd love to believe there was any hope that that could happen, but it won't.  There is no way that leading politicians from any of the three main parties would allow mere facts to distract them from a scapegoat-hunt.  The fact that they're all competing to inflict pain on the same scapegoat just makes the chase that bit more exciting for them.

 

Cunts.

[Strontium]

I'd love to believe there was any hope that that could happen, but it won't.  There is no way that leading politicians from any of the three main parties would allow mere facts to distract them from a scapegoat-hunt.  The fact that they're all competing to inflict pain on the same scapegoat just makes the chase that bit more exciting for them.

 

Cunts.

 

Either you're not counting the Lib Dems as one of the three main parties (possible), or you have a really short memory.

[Dr Arthur De Sabre]

Today:

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-29929333

Lunacy..

[AngryOfTuebrook]

Either you're not counting the Lib Dems as one of the three main parties (possible), or you have a really short memory.

A little from Column A, a little from Column B.

 

I'll admit, I haven't listened to anything any leading LibDems have said for quite a while now, because... what's the point?  When they were relevant they were lying.  Now they're Dead Men (and Women) Walking, they may or may not be lying still; I don't care.

[Strontium]

A little from Column A, a little from Column B.

 

I'll admit, I haven't listened to anything any leading LibDems have said for quite a while now, because... what's the point?  When they were relevant they were lying.  Now they're Dead Men (and Women) Walking, they may or may not be lying still; I don't care.

 

No, sorry, that's not good enough. There has been a consistent Lib Dem line on immigration, and we have suffered massively for it. Clegg took Farage on in live televised debates over this shit, and the result was losing 10 of our 11 MEPs. You don't get to post such slovenly bollocks when people are doing the right thing and getting shafted for it.

 

Oh, and you should probably prepare to be surprised in six months.

[Stu Monty]

No, sorry, that's not good enough. There has been a consistent Lib Dem line on immigration, and we have suffered massively for it. Clegg took Farage on in live televised debates over this shit, and the result was losing 10 of our 11 MEPs. You don't get to post such slovenly bollocks when people are doing the right thing and getting shafted for it.

 

Oh, and you should probably prepare to be surprised in six months.

 

In what way?

[PestiRed]

Nobody asked Clegg to take on Farage on national TV and ultimately it did more harm than good. Clegg was complacent and thought he could take him on without preparing properly. He got his arse kicked and gave Farage a national platform that has seen his popularity increase.

 

No one's grateful to Clegg for such an almighty fuck up, he can fuck off

[Strontium]

Nobody asked Clegg to take on Farage on national TV and ultimately it did more harm than good. Clegg was complacent and thought he could take him on without preparing properly. He got his arse kicked and gave Farage a national platform that has seen his popularity increase.

 

No one's grateful to Clegg for such an almighty fuck up, he can fuck off

 

This is complete shit, isn't it. Only one participant was arguing with facts. Frankly, you can fuck off for criticising the one man in Britain with guts enough to take on Nigel Farage. It's not Clegg's fault that people are thick.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

I'm too slovenly to look up that Brecht quote about the leaders being unhappy with the people and deciding that they'll have to change them. Also, I can't be arsed digging out all the evidence (which I'm sure must exist) that the reason the Lib Dems keep getting battered in council, Parliamentary and European elections is that the stupid people fear their strong pro-immigration stance.

[Strontium]

I wouldn't say it was the reason we've declined since the general election. I would, however, say it was a major reason why we declined in the polls from 30% to 23% in the last week before the general election, and I would also say it was a major reason for poor performance in the European elections, previous decent performance in those elections being largely in spite of our principled stance on migration.

 

And, yeah, I have no problem denouncing people who vote to diminish our freedoms, in this instance freedom of movement, as stupid. You could say I was militantly pro-migration.

[Stu Monty]

You do actually.

 

If those votes are in the British Parliament.

 

By your party.

 

Often wonder how a man who so often declares the population to be stupid is so keen on market solutions.

 

Too dumb to vote properly. But not to buy responsibly.

[VladimirIlyich]

No, sorry, that's not good enough. There has been a consistent Lib Dem line on immigration, and we have suffered massively for it. Clegg took Farage on in live televised debates over this shit, and the result was losing 10 of our 11 MEPs. You don't get to post such slovenly bollocks when people are doing the right thing and getting shafted for it.

 

Oh, and you should probably prepare to be surprised in six months.

The right thing is to vote against these acts that take away personal freedoms in Parliament but your party's MPs seem to be happy to forget it the. You know,when it really matters.

[Strontium]

You do actually.

 

If those votes are in the British Parliament.

 

By your party.

Ho ho. Very droll. Let's not turn this thread into yet another tedious bash the liberals thread, and stick to immigration, eh.

 

Often wonder how a man who so often declares the population to be stupid is so keen on market solutions.

 

Too dumb to vote properly. But not to buy responsibly.

 

Are you saying we should limit the freedoms of smart people because some stupid people might abuse those freedoms? That's very... left-wing.

 

Anyway, this isn't really the topic for it.

[Stu Monty]

Ho ho. Very droll. Let's not turn this thread into yet another tedious bash the liberals thread, and stick to immigration, eh.

 

 

 

Are you saying we should limit the freedoms of smart people because some stupid people might abuse those freedoms? That's very... left-wing.

 

Anyway, this isn't really the topic for it.

No. I wasn't saying that. As you know. Because you can read.

 

Not bashing the Lib Dems either, just pointing out that you clearly do have a problem denouncing people voting to diminish our freedoms, in response to you claiming otherwise.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

OK, I'm pissed, so this could be nonsense, but... 1. Anyone who imagines that there is a difference in the validity of opinions of "smart" people and "stupid" people is an arrogant, illiberable and wrong cunt. 2. Shouldn't we celebrate the fact the cumulative achievements of our forebears allow us to visit and live and work in so many wonderful places and to meet so many great people?

[Stu Monty]

Not sure it makes you a cunt or not a liberal.  Just wonder how you can then think that this sea of derps are going to give you the best solutions to problems through a market system.

[Strontium]

1. Anyone who imagines that there is a difference in the validity of opinions of "smart" people and "stupid" people is an arrogant, illiberable and wrong cunt.

 

This is clearly ridiculous nonsense.

 

Admittedly, I am coming at this from the position of a liberal elitist, but surely it's obvious to everyone that the opinions of people who know what they're talking about are inherently worth more than the opinions of people who don't?