Russia v Ukraine

[Vincent Vega]

Not that anyone who isn’t a crank believes anything from the Russians, but this is pretty comprehensive proof that those bodies in Bucha have been there for weeks.

 

[Rico1304]

18 minutes ago, Arniepie said:

Tbf I think any army is capable of carrying out atrocities. 

In this invasion and subsequent war, if you were to have to place a % on Russian v Ukrainian, how would you score it? 

[TheHowieLama]

53 minutes ago, Arniepie said:

Tbf I think any army is capable of carrying out atrocities. 

On their own?

 

EDIT @Arniepie

On their own people?

[Ne Moe Imya]

1 hour ago, Pureblood said:

Is there any mobile phone footage of the alleged war crimes in Bucha?

Let me ask you something.

 

If an invading army show up to your town and the first thing they do is take everyone's cell phones and force you to open them, then check for photos and texts to the territorial defense, and then steal the phones and mail them back to Russia (there is loads of evidence for this online that even you would have to admit is pretty conclusive) ... do you really still think people, even if they did manage to hide a phone somehow, are going to sneak out of the basements they're hiding in while the troops take the neighbor out and tie him up and shoot him in the street and video it?

 

We may see a few videos like this at some point, but there won't be many. But it doesn't matter, because anyone with a remotely objective bone in their body can see that the Russians are committing war crimes, even without such videos.

[Sugar Ape]

This is fucking horrific. Fuck anyone implying Ukrainians did this to their own people. 
 

 

[SasaS]

As they say in the comments, hope Ukrainian government officials triple check what they are sharing.  

[Pureblood]

21 minutes ago, Ne Moe Imya said:

Let me ask you something.

 

If an invading army show up to your town and the first thing they do is take everyone's cell phones and force you to open them, then check for photos and texts to the territorial defense, and then steal the phones and mail them back to Russia (there is loads of evidence for this online that even you would have to admit is pretty conclusive) ... do you really still think people, even if they did manage to hide a phone somehow, are going to sneak out of the basements they're hiding in while the troops take the neighbor out and tie him up and shoot him in the street and video it?

 

We may see a few videos like this at some point, but there won't be many. But it doesn't matter, because anyone with a remotely objective bone in their body can see that the Russians are committing war crimes, even without such videos.

It doesn't sound like an efficient way of conducting a war, to be honest, and it's a bit of a stretch to say that Russian soldiers are all kid fuckers as alluded to in Sugar Ape's post.

 

Anyway, I'll make a prediction - no Russian will be tried for war crimes on the back of this.  I think it's being used to justify further sanctions before a proper investigation has been carried out into what happened.  

 

But ultimately I don't think anyone, in particular Putin, will face charges for war crimes.   Are war crime trials even that common or a regular occurrence?  I can only think of Nuremberg. 

[SasaS]

10 minutes ago, SasaS said:

As they say in the comments, hope Ukrainian government officials triple check what they are sharing.  

The second photo is apparently from a morgue and both girls died in the shelling on March 5 if I am not mistaken, according to the article. So I doubt there would be signs of rape. When you don't check, you just play into the hands of those who will be denying everything.

 

https://zona.media/article/2022/03/29/banned-mykolaiv?fbclid=IwAR3feFn2jXb2E0zvuxpUlNzrWP9Xor7kpxE4GXzuA6uuWsFxKPjsor-LaiM

[TheHowieLama]

13 minutes ago, SasaS said:

The second photo is apparently from a morgue and both girls died in the shelling on March 5 if I am not mistaken, according to the article. So I doubt there would be signs of rape. When you don't check, you just play into the hands of those who will be denying everything.

 

https://zona.media/article/2022/03/29/banned-mykolaiv?fbclid=IwAR3feFn2jXb2E0zvuxpUlNzrWP9Xor7kpxE4GXzuA6uuWsFxKPjsor-LaiM

Ahh, good news. So they are still alive?

[SasaS]

Just now, TheHowieLama said:

Ahh, good news. So they are still alive?

Do I really need to explain?

[Jose Jones]

24 minutes ago, Pureblood said:

It doesn't sound like an efficient way of conducting a war, to be honest, and it's a bit of a stretch to say that Russian soldiers are all kid fuckers as alluded to in Sugar Ape's post.

 

Anyway, I'll make a prediction - no Russian will be tried for war crimes on the back of this.  I think it's being used to justify further sanctions before a proper investigation has been carried out into what happened.  

 

But ultimately I don't think anyone, in particular Putin, will face charges for war crimes.   Are war crime trials even that common or a regular occurrence?  I can only think of Nuremberg. 

Yugoslavian war ones are the last I can remember.  But I think it's changed it's name now - it's not the War Crimes Tribunal in the Hague any more.

Anyway, didn't the British Government bring in legislation last year that specifically said that British troops couldn't be prosecuted for atrocities committed in other countries?  Pretty hypocritical to be banging on about war crimes then isn't it?

[TheHowieLama]

6 minutes ago, SasaS said:

Do I really need to explain?

We as a whole are at least grateful they weren't raped before they died?

[TheHowieLama]

7 minutes ago, Jose Jones said:

Yugoslavian war ones are the last I can remember. 

Serbs.

[SasaS]

1 minute ago, TheHowieLama said:

We as a whole are at least grateful they weren't raped before they died?

What exactly are you fishing for here?

[TheHowieLama]

Just now, SasaS said:

What exactly are you fishing for here?

I may not be talking to you amigo.

[polymerpunkah]

Putin's entire entire invasion is a war crime.

 

Thousands dead, millions displaced, cities destroyed.

 

With no justification whatsoever (though I struggle to think what justification there might ever be for such inhumanity beyond "might makes right").

 

 

 

[Red Phoenix]

1 hour ago, Vincent Vega said:

Not that anyone who isn’t a crank believes anything from the Russians, but this is pretty comprehensive proof that those bodies in Bucha have been there for weeks.

 

 

I've just looked at this, would've done hours ago but needed some sleep. Thanks, it's good to have more than just some reports from the Ukrainian side, some images and loads of media and leaders getting outraged. I don't think there's any way of denying that those images do show bodies that have been there for weeks now and that Russia have lied to try and cover that up.

 

If I'm going to get a load of stick for wondering if it was Azov neo-Nazis that had killled people and/or staged something then I'll have to deal with it, but I'm going to question everything I see and not just believe what the media and our leaders say if there's not good enough evidence at the time they're first reporting it.

[SasaS]

19 minutes ago, Jose Jones said:

Yugoslavian war ones are the last I can remember.  But I think it's changed it's name now - it's not the War Crimes Tribunal in the Hague any more.

Anyway, didn't the British Government bring in legislation last year that specifically said that British troops couldn't be prosecuted for atrocities committed in other countries?  Pretty hypocritical to be banging on about war crimes then isn't it?

I don't remember anybody ever being tried internationally except ex-Yugoslavs and Africans.

[TheHowieLama]

9 minutes ago, Red Phoenix said:

 

I've just looked at this, would've done hours ago but needed some sleep. Thanks, it's good to have more than just some reports from the Ukrainian side, some images and loads of media and leaders getting outraged. I don't think there's any way of denying that those images do show bodies that have been there for weeks now and that Russia have lied to try and cover that up.

 

If I'm going to get a load of stick for wondering if it was Azov neo-Nazis that had killled people and/or staged something then I'll have to deal with it, but I'm going to question everything I see and not just believe what the media and our leaders say if there's not good enough evidence at the time they're first reporting it.

Imagine how much more sleep you would get if you started in a slightly different place.

[Red Phoenix]

15 minutes ago, TheHowieLama said:

Imagine how much more sleep you would get if you started in a slightly different place.

 

Ukraine, western leaders and media said there'd been Bucha war crimes, Russia said there hadn't been and it was staged. I questioned what was going on and have now seen satellite images that if accurate with the dates and so on have removed those questions.

 

What's the slightly different place? One where I don't question?

[TheHowieLama]

10 minutes ago, Red Phoenix said:

 

What's the slightly different place? One where I don't question?

Question everything, of course not. Thats silly. Get a filter pal - focus.

[Strontium]

36 minutes ago, Red Phoenix said:

If I'm going to get a load of stick for wondering if it was Azov neo-Nazis that had killled people and/or staged something then I'll have to deal with it, but I'm going to question everything I see and not just believe what the media and our leaders say if there's not good enough evidence at the time they're first reporting it.

 

RP, do notions of probability never factor into your calculations?

 

If I leave my house in the morning, and there's a dirty great turd on the pavement (a daily experience around here), I don't question where it came from. I know it probably came from a dog's arse. Of course, there's a theoretical probability that a human left it there, but it has to go down as fairly unlikely. It's not a 50/50 shot.

 

Similarly, if there are hundreds of murdered Ukrainian civilians, can you really not say: it was probably the Russians that did it? Must the attitude always be: reserve judgement until there's an insurmountable (and, in the circumstances, unlikely) pile of evidence?

[Red Phoenix]

9 minutes ago, TheHowieLama said:

Question everything, of course not. Thats silly. Get a filter pal - focus.

 

7 minutes ago, Strontium said:

 

RP, do notions of probability never factor into your calculations?

 

If I leave my house in the morning, and there's a dirty great turd on the pavement (a daily experience around here), I don't question where it came from. I know it probably came from a dog's arse. Of course, there's a theoretical probability that a human left it there, but it has to go down as fairly unlikely. It's not a 50/50 shot.

 

Similarly, if there are hundreds of murdered Ukrainian civilians, can you really not say: it was probably the Russians that did it? Must the attitude always be: reserve judgement until there's an insurmountable (and, in the circumstances, unlikely) pile of evidence?

 

When there's events that cause escalation/more hostility that could prevent the chances of talks taking place to try and end this sooner I'm going to question everything that I can.

 

I'm not really comfortable with (incase anyone hasn't noticed) the fascism and neo-Nazism on the Ukrainian side. When that's added to Russia invading a country and the problems with our media, leaders, UK and US involvement in war and the risks that this war has it's going to make me question things more than I might usually do.

[Jose Jones]

First casualty of war is truth innit?

Fair to take a sceptical view of everything really. 

[ManéMan]