Keir Starmer

[Numero Veinticinco]

2 minutes ago, sir roger said:

Are you not overemphasising this.  It is all minor internal stuff and I can't see any of it making any difference at national level.i would imagine Sharon Graham would be a Pointless score on the programme of the same name, and she is a union leader and can do what she feels best benefits her members with their money. I hadn't even heard of this-Young Labour thing. In that poll posted earluer I would be surprised if it affected the Labour score by more than half a percent. It's like the weird attention paid to nonentities like Owen Jones and that Kerry Katona girl. 

I think that poll is just one of several. The one posted yesterday (when using the same methodology as previous) has them gaining several points with a 10pt lead. I think Sections wider point that when you're leading a broad church like Labour, quite often you get it from all sides. The Tories are generally much, much better at keeping their dirty laundry inside the house.

[Gnasher]

49 minutes ago, Section_31 said:

The last few days have shown what an impossible task it is to be a Labour leader in the modern climate IMO. One day you've got a Union threatening to pull its funding because you won't wade in to a council's dispute with bin staff, a few days later Young Labour are calling you out for supporting Nato - with a UK defence industry that employs tens of thousands of, erm, union workers. 

 

The issue we've had now for years is people wanting to sound off with their own axes to grind, whether it's about Palestine, Kashmir, Nato, or any number of other things which simply don't matter to Joe Public, they just don't, whether you  think  they should or not doesn't alter it. 

 

And none of these axe grinders seem to appreciate that you CAN'T change ANYTHING unless you get ELECTED. 

 

 

 

 

Hmm you mention the people employed through Nato, the NHS employes 1.4 million, nurses support for the Labour Party has fallen off a cliff these past two years, the Muslim vote is also falling, union vote the same. It'll be very difficult for Labour to get elected if it gives the impression it cares little for all three.

 

 

https://tribunemag.co.uk/2021/05/how-labour-lost-the-nurses

[sir roger]

1 minute ago, Numero Veinticinco said:

I think that poll is just one of several. The one posted yesterday (when using the same methodology as previous) has them gaining several points with a 10pt lead. I think Sections wider point that when you're leading a broad church like Labour, quite often you get it from all sides. 

Not picking any particular poll, just don't think the gripes Section is raising are amongst the top 20 things on the vast majority of peoples minds. If you are talking about problems being caused by internal party rows, I would argue softlad is getting far more hassle from his mp's sending in notes to the 1922 shower than extremely minor spats in the Labour party

[Section_31]

13 minutes ago, Babb'sBurstNad said:

There are times when it's almost like you don't care about the plight of the Peruvian bumblebee, you callous cunt.

 

Labour has always been a broad church, but the fact some of  the stuff Starmer is peddling is seen as somehow 'rogue' is quite bizarre. 

 

Liverpool as a city is case in point. It's always been economically left wing but socially conservative. Most of the Labour voters I've known, be they family, friends or through previous jobs, didn't have a problem with the military - for example - (in fact most had relatives in the military). They weren't that arsed about foreign affairs either. They were more concerned with the NHS, jobs and pay than virtually anything else. 

[Numero Veinticinco]

4 minutes ago, sir roger said:

Not picking any particular poll, just don't think the gripes Section is raising are amongst the top 20 things on the vast majority of peoples minds. If you are talking about problems being caused by internal party rows, I would argue softlad is getting far more hassle from his mp's sending in notes to the 1922 shower than extremely minor spats in the Labour party

I think you're underestimating what's going on inside the Labour party then. That said, I agree that it's not those issues that are solely impacting the polls, though with a 10 point lead - and some 30 points gained since the last leader - things seem to be trending in the right direction. 

[Captain Willard]

4 minutes ago, Gnasher said:

The Mail has been quite critical of Johnson, as have the Telegraph, the topic throughout the media for the past ten days has been Starmers so called link to Jimmy Saville, as I said Johnsons aid resigned over it. The average Daily Mail reader are set in their veiws, the readership is down and the paper no longer has the clout you suggest.

I agree.  I think politics is rarely about millions of people changing their minds, it’s getting your core support out to vote and getting the votes of a small number of floating voters in key marginals. I don’t think your average Daily Mail reader is ever going to vote Labour in much the same way a New Statesmen or Guardian reader would never vote Tory. I think the influence of the media on shifting millions of votes between parties is massively overstated on here often accompanied by a sneering contempt for the electorate for being thick racists. 
 

The only way back for Labour is to get their core vote to get back to the polling stations a and you do this by re - engaging with voters on the door step. There’s probably about 100 weekends left until the next election so that’s 100 available Saturdays of leafleting, door knocking etc. If every member in every constituency committed to do just 10 Saturdays each of leafleting and door knocking between now and the election, Labour would probably walk it. 
 

It’s telling that the Tories are already out doing this in some key seats, every weekend they are out and about somewhere knocking on doors and counting down to the 2024 election. Look at how they blitzed Southend. Even though it was an uncontested seat, activists travelled from all over the south to shore up the vote. 

You don’t win elections sitting on your arse complaining about your electorate and blaming the daily mail. 

[Gnasher]

7 minutes ago, Numero Veinticinco said:

I think you're underestimating what's going on inside the Labour party then. That said, I agree that it's not those issues that are solely impacting the polls, though with a 10 point lead - and some 30 points gained since the last leader - things seem to be trending in the right direction. 

We have got a prime minister under investigation by the police to at least partially thank for Labours recent good poll showing, Labour was a hugh 15 points behind as recently as last spring. I just hope the Labour right do not use this new found position of strength to launch needless attacks on the left but recent vibes are not good.

[Section_31]

25 minutes ago, Gnasher said:

Hmm you mention the people employed through Nato, the NHS employes 1.4 million, nurses support for the Labour Party has fallen off a cliff these past two years, the Muslim vote is also falling, union vote the same. It'll be very difficult for Labour to get elected if it gives the impression it cares little for all three.

 

 

https://tribunemag.co.uk/2021/05/how-labour-lost-the-nurses

I suspect part of the problem is the double whammy being run by the media of 'MPs are ALL shite' and 'there's no point voting they're all the same', coupled with a Tory base that is fired up and gets out and votes.

 

The people who want change are largely disenfranchised - by design - the people who want things to stay the same aren't. 

 

 

 

[Red Phoenix]

58 minutes ago, Section_31 said:

Young Labour are calling you out for supporting Nato

 

Maybe more intelligent than a lot of the rest of Labour on that one. The main issue is that a leader opposing NATO and making it a key issue in a campaign would definitely invite the US in interfering in our election. If a Labour leader ever wants us out of NATO it's probably best to keep it quiet during the campaign if they want some acceptable level of a democratic process taking place.

[Strontium]

28 minutes ago, Gnasher said:

Hmm you mention the people employed through Nato, the NHS employes 1.4 million, nurses support for the Labour Party has fallen off a cliff these past two years, the Muslim vote is also falling, union vote the same. It'll be very difficult for Labour to get elected if it gives the impression it cares little for all three.

 

https://tribunemag.co.uk/2021/05/how-labour-lost-the-nurses

 

Funny, the Tories seem to have no problem getting elected despite not giving a shit about those three.

[Gnasher]

1 minute ago, Section_31 said:

I suspect part of the problem is the double whammy being run by the media of 'MPs are ALL shite' and 'there's no point voting they're all the same', coupled with a Tory base that is fired up and gets out and votes.

 

The people who want change are largely disenfranchised - by design - the people who want things to stay the same aren't. 

 

 

 

Yeah it's going to be difficult to win whatever way you look at it and whichever way you approach it.

[Gnasher]

3 minutes ago, Strontium said:

 

Funny, the Tories seem to have no problem getting elected despite not giving a shit about those three.

They certainly give the impression they go out to bat for their core vote though, which was my point.

[Numero Veinticinco]

24 minutes ago, Red Phoenix said:

 

Maybe more intelligent than a lot of the rest of Labour on that one. The main issue is that a leader opposing NATO and making it a key issue in a campaign would definitely invite the US in interfering in our election. If a Labour leader ever wants us out of NATO it's probably best to keep it quiet during the campaign if they want some acceptable level of a democratic process taking place.

Any Labour leader wanting us to leave NATO might well see me vote for *gulp* the Tories. 

[Babb'sBurstNad]

26 minutes ago, Section_31 said:

 

Labour has always been a broad church, but the fact some of  the stuff Starmer is peddling is seen as somehow 'rogue' is quite bizarre. 

 

Liverpool as a city is case in point. It's always been economically left wing but socially conservative. Most of the Labour voters I've known, be they family, friends or through previous jobs, didn't have a problem with the military - for example - (in fact most had relatives in the military). They weren't that arsed about foreign affairs either. They were more concerned with the NHS, jobs and pay than virtually anything else. 

Preaching to the choir here. I never much cared for Alan Johnson, but I think he had a point when he said the working class had always been a disappointment to Lansman and co.

 

The core economic principles of a Labour movement are only acceptable if they come packaged with the right social message now. Some people would rather argue about Israel than renationalisation.

[sir roger]

1 hour ago, Numero Veinticinco said:

I think you're underestimating what's going on inside the Labour party then. That said, I agree that it's not those issues that are solely impacting the polls, though with a 10 point lead - and some 30 points gained since the last leader - things seem to be trending in the right direction. 

You can't help yourself can you ?

[Numero Veinticinco]

54 minutes ago, sir roger said:

You can't help yourself can you ?

I can’t help myself just fine. It’s relevant to the point. As much as I’m sure some would like to, we can’t pretend he took over a popular party. 

[Strontium]

At least Scottish Young Labour are saying the right things.

 

 

[Bjornebye]

3 minutes ago, Strontium said:

At least Scottish Young Labour are saying the right things.

 

 

Let’s just hope they don’t give examples of standing up for freedom ….

[Red Phoenix]

2 hours ago, Numero Veinticinco said:

Any Labour leader wanting us to leave NATO might well see me vote for *gulp* the Tories. 

 

You should vote for Galloway in that case, he's assured to keep us in.

[Strontium]

2 minutes ago, Bjornebye said:

Let’s just hope they don’t give examples of standing up for freedom ….

 

I would say that their third Tweet provides an excellent template of what standing up for freedom constitutes:

 

"Scottish Young Labour believes the Labour Party should always defend the principles of democracy, freedom and self-determination when they are threatened with authoritarian aggressors anywhere in the world."

[Bjornebye]

4 minutes ago, Strontium said:

 

I would say that their third Tweet provides an excellent template of what standing up for freedom constitutes:

 

"Scottish Young Labour believes the Labour Party should always defend the principles of democracy, freedom and self-determination when they are threatened with authoritarian aggressors anywhere in the world."

Like I said. It’s probably best they don’t give examples of the freedom and solidarity they are referring too. 

[Numero Veinticinco]

19 minutes ago, Red Phoenix said:

 

You should vote for Galloway in that case, he's assured to keep us in.

Except that’s a waste of a vote, which one d sooner not do. 

[Red Phoenix]

17 minutes ago, Numero Veinticinco said:

Except that’s a waste of a vote, which one d sooner not do. 

 

I was just messing anyway. As far as I can see the Greens are against NATO too so I'll just stick with voting for them.

[Red Phoenix]

A response from Stop the War to Keith's recent ravings about them : Keir Starmer’s cynical embrace of Nato is a sad sight indeed

 

I suppose many here won't agree but whatever, I've no intention of sticking around in this thread anyway.

[sir roger]

1 hour ago, Numero Veinticinco said:

I can’t help myself just fine. It’s relevant to the point. As much as I’m sure some would like to, we can’t pretend he took over a popular party. 

It wasn't relevant at all, the discussion being how much Labour's internal squabbles has on its actual vote or polling. 

 

If I wanted to cherry-pick statistics I could point out that the last leader once managed 41% of a real vote ( 13m votes ) not 37% of a poll of a few thousand people, but that apparently doesn't count because that was against a terrible Tory leader totally unlike the gem they have today, but it would not be relevant to the discussion.