Keir Starmer

[Arniepie]

8 minutes ago, Numero Veinticinco said:

Yet they're doing much better in the polls than when the last leadership team put out their manifesto. Again, the pandemic really has dominated so much. As for a meaningful policy platform, that - as with leaders before him - will come with the manifesto. I keep hearing this criticism - mainly from the left - but they don't really tell you why it's a bad thing, they don't really tell you what other leader had a meaningful policy platform released after 20 months.  

Yep. Like Corbyn and Miliband, he seems to have heartily failed to do that. The party he inherited was so incredibly divided. We've discussed this criticism on here before any I always ask the question... how. How exactly does he do that. Normally there's a flippant 'well, not a witch hunt against socialists would be a good start' or 'that's his job', but I'd be really interested in a detailed explanation of how he - or the next leader, if that's less politically charged - can unite the party. 

Well I suppose there is an argument that rather to even try to unite it,he has done the exact opposite. 

But I agree the party is possibly irreparably broken and in many ways,it would be better to split ,yet that would only succeed in ensuring these utter cunts got in again.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

19 minutes ago, Numero Veinticinco said:

I keep hearing this criticism - mainly from the left - but they don't really tell you why it's a bad thing

I can tell you why it's a bad thing. Nobody knows what he - or, by extension - the Labour Party, stands for. As a result, nobody has any reason to want to vote for them.  (The hope appears to be that people will just want to vote against the Tories. It's a tactic that Milliband used and it will have the same result.) 

[sir roger]

Jeremy Corbyn , Tom Watson , Angela Eagle , Emily Thornberry , John McDonnell , Hilary Benn  , Andy Burnham , Diane Abbott , Jacqui Smith ,  Owen Smith ,  Jon Trickett , Barry Gardiner , Lisa Nandy , Luciana Berger , Gloria Del Piero , Jonathan Ashworth , Ian Murray.

 

NV asked how you unite the Labour party to win elections .

 

In my opinion Corbyn's first cabinet would have walked the 2017 election with a mix of the best Labour had to offer , but elements in the PLP and Head Office decided that ensuring power remained in the hands of the Centrist / New Labour wing was more important.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

29 minutes ago, sir roger said:

Jeremy Corbyn , Tom Watson , Angela Eagle , Emily Thornberry , John McDonnell , Hilary Benn  , Andy Burnham , Diane Abbott , Jacqui Smith ,  Owen Smith ,  Jon Trickett , Barry Gardiner , Lisa Nandy , Luciana Berger , Gloria Del Piero , Jonathan Ashworth , Ian Murray.

 

NV asked how you unite the Labour party to win elections .

 

In my opinion Corbyn's first cabinet would have walked the 2017 election with a mix of the best Labour had to offer , but elements in the PLP and Head Office decided that ensuring power remained in the hands of the Centrist / New Labour wing was more important.

It does amuse me the way the "Lefties care more about ideological purity than winning elections" narrative has taken hold.

I've only ever seen one faction work so hard to undermine the party leadership, because they don't like their ideology, and it wasn't the Left that was doing it.

 

Anyway, what's gone is gone, we can't replace what went down in the flood. The question is - how the fuck do we get Labour into power and delivering at least some of the changes the country so desperately needs? Fucked if I know.

[Gnasher]

 

[Numero Veinticinco]

2 hours ago, AngryOfTuebrook said:

I can tell you why it's a bad thing. Nobody knows what he - or, by extension - the Labour Party, stands for. As a result, nobody has any reason to want to vote for them.  (The hope appears to be that people will just want to vote against the Tories. It's a tactic that Milliband used and it will have the same result.) 

Right, except there’s no election and unless they don’t release a manifesto ever then this reason is just another case of invalid criticism aimed at criticising before you miss your chance and it’s too late. You see it on the FF all the time. You’re basically answering the question ‘why is it a bad thing that they never release any policy details’ when, if you read the rest of the post, it’s clear I’m talking about why it’s bad to not do it in the first 20 months. And this has been thrown at him since just a few weeks after he was elected. It’s so silly.

[Numero Veinticinco]

1 hour ago, sir roger said:

Jeremy Corbyn , Tom Watson , Angela Eagle , Emily Thornberry , John McDonnell , Hilary Benn  , Andy Burnham , Diane Abbott , Jacqui Smith ,  Owen Smith ,  Jon Trickett , Barry Gardiner , Lisa Nandy , Luciana Berger , Gloria Del Piero , Jonathan Ashworth , Ian Murray.

 

NV asked how you unite the Labour party to win elections .

 

In my opinion Corbyn's first cabinet would have walked the 2017 election with a mix of the best Labour had to offer , but elements in the PLP and Head Office decided that ensuring power remained in the hands of the Centrist / New Labour wing was more important.

I’m genuinely not sure if that’s serious? Firstly, that isn’t the question I asked, I asked for a detailed explanation on how to do it and secondly you just gave an example that lists a load of people and then pointed at the resulting disunity as a reason for not winning the election. So unless your detailed answer to how to unite the party is to follow steps that resulted in party disunity, I really don’t get it. 

[skend04]

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/feb/13/met-investigates-death-threats-against-keir-starmer-in-wake-of-johnsons-savile-slur

 

A lot of crazies out there. Beginning with the PM.

[skend04]

8 hours ago, Gnasher said:

 

Those crackpot Brexiteers are doggedly hanging on to the Tory party. Under the old methodology Labour are 10 points ahead. Will be interesting to see what other pollsters do.

[Numero Veinticinco]

26 minutes ago, skend04 said:

Those crackpot Brexiteers are doggedly hanging on to the Tory party. Under the old methodology Labour are 10 points ahead. Will be interesting to see what other pollsters do.

I think a lot of the hangers on would have the perfect opportunity to switch if Johnson went. 'Oh, I don't like the new guy'. That said, they'll always retain a certain level of support, no matter how shit they are. It's an uphill struggle for anyone. A coalition on the centre left/left would be more than palatable in my view. 

[Numero Veinticinco]

31 minutes ago, skend04 said:

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/feb/13/met-investigates-death-threats-against-keir-starmer-in-wake-of-johnsons-savile-slur

 

A lot of crazies out there. Beginning with the PM.

Absolute scumbags. The far right groups are twats too.

[skend04]

6 minutes ago, Numero Veinticinco said:

I think a lot of the hangers on would have the perfect opportunity to switch if Johnson went. 'Oh, I don't like the new guy'. That said, they'll always retain a certain level of support, no matter how shit they are. It's an uphill struggle for anyone. A coalition on the centre left/left would be more than palatable in my view. 

Must be part of the reason why the Tory MPs are dragging it all out with getting rid of him. Calculating where they'd be without his popularity amongst the leave voting populace.

 

 

[Arniepie]

Going over old ground here I know, but the 2019 election wasnt lost because of labours manifesto, which whilst not being perfect,was certainly a lot more progressive than, get Brexit done.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

9 hours ago, Numero Veinticinco said:

Right, except there’s no election and unless they don’t release a manifesto ever then this reason is just another case of invalid criticism aimed at criticising before you miss your chance and it’s too late. You see it on the FF all the time. You’re basically answering the question ‘why is it a bad thing that they never release any policy details’ when, if you read the rest of the post, it’s clear I’m talking about why it’s bad to not do it in the first 20 months. And this has been thrown at him since just a few weeks after he was elected. It’s so silly.

Nobody is asking for a detailed, coated manifesto; that would be "so silly". People just want a clue about what he believes in, so they can get an idea of what sort of Government he would lead.

 

For example, right now would be an ideal time to start talking, in broad terms, about measures to rebalance the economy so it actually works for people. Just give us a clue! 

[AngryOfTuebrook]

3 minutes ago, Arniepie said:

Going over old ground here I know, but the 2019 election wasnt lost because of labours manifesto, which whilst not being perfect,was certainly a lot more progressive than,her Brexit done.

Correct.

The research at the time said that the two overriding factors were voters' opinions on Brexit and Jeremy Corbyn.

[Jairzinho]

2019 was unwinnable for Labour but Corbyn should have gone before then. He needed to hand the party over to someone younger without the baggage. Otherwise, well, the party would be under the control of centrists again. 

 

When Johnson is replaced by some empty suit, as I can't believe they would allow someone as phenomenally stupid as Truss to take over, Starmer is going to have to start showing something otherwise people will give the Tories another majority. Although I think it will be "charm" rather than policies. 

 

I'm guessing there will be a bit of pseudo uniting of the party nearer an election as Starmer realises he needs the left to go door to door. 

 

The voting system really needs to change. It's so galling that people on the left have to vote for Starmer. 

[Arniepie]

9 hours ago, Gnasher said:

 

Genuinely unbelievable 

[Jairzinho]

6 minutes ago, AngryOfTuebrook said:

Nobody is asking for a detailed, coated manifesto; that would be "so silly". People just want a clue about what he believes in, so they can get an idea of what sort of Government he would lead.

 

For example, right now would be an ideal time to start talking, in broad terms, about measures to rebalance the economy so it actually works for people. Just give us a clue! 

I don't think you're going to get much from him regarding policies. That doesn't seem to be the plan. 

 

It's actually why the comparisons with Blair are way off. Early Blair had good policies, and delivered with charisma. 

[Arniepie]

2 minutes ago, Jairzinho said:

2019 was unwinnable for Labour but Corbyn should have gone before then. He needed to hand the party over to someone younger without the baggage. Otherwise, well, the party would be under the control of centrists again. 

 

When Johnson is replaced by some empty suit, as I can't believe they would allow someone as phenomenally stupid as Truss to take over, Starmer ia going to have to start showing something otherwise people will give the Tories another majority. 

 

I'm guessing there will be a bit of pseudo uniting of the party nearer an election as Starmer realises he needs the left to go door to door. 

 

The voting system really needs to change. It's so galling that people on the left have to vote for Starmer. 

Dont agree. 

He had done remarkably well in 2017 and there seemed to be a lot of support for him.

I'd love to know what changed between those 2 years.Like angry says Brexit was obviously a huge factor but I'd suggest 2 years of relentless demonization in the press played a part.

[Arniepie]

10 hours ago, AngryOfTuebrook said:

It does amuse me the way the "Lefties care more about ideological purity than winning elections" narrative has taken hold.

I've only ever seen one faction work so hard to undermine the party leadership, because they don't like their ideology, and it wasn't the Left that was doing it.

 

Anyway, what's gone is gone, we can't replace what went down in the flood. The question is - how the fuck do we get Labour into power and delivering at least some of the changes the country so desperately needs? Fucked if I know.

How many times did they try to oust corbyn again?twice?

Yet its his fault they couldmt unite the party?

[Jairzinho]

Just now, Arniepie said:

Dont agree. 

He had done remarkably well in 2017 and there seemed to be a lot of support for him.

I'd love to know what changed between those 2 years.Like angry says Brexit was obviously a huge factor but I'd suggest 2 years of relentless demonization in the press played a part.

The two factors weren't a surprise though, were they? 

 

His own party briefing against him wasn't a surprise either. They're fucking snakes. Absolute fucking cunts that he should have jettisoned in his first six months in the job. 

 

He, unlike Starmer, did try and unite the party. It was a mistake. He should have fucked them off. 

[Numero Veinticinco]

14 minutes ago, AngryOfTuebrook said:

Nobody is asking for a detailed, coated manifesto; that would be "so silly". People just want a clue about what he believes in, so they can get an idea of what sort of Government he would lead.

 

For example, right now would be an ideal time to start talking, in broad terms, about measures to rebalance the economy so it actually works for people. Just give us a clue! 

Right so you've gone from 'meaningful policy platform' to 'give us a clue' and ' talking in broad terms'. I don't think it's pedantic to point out how those things are quite different. Calls for the former are a bit silly, calls for the later are fine. He has, of course, given broad ideas and given a 'clue about what he believes in'. He also spoke of how frustrated he has been with the pandemic stopping him being out and about and meeting people. I can only assume it's coming. That said, if he never puts any meaningful policy platform infront of voters he'll be the most incompetent leader since Boris Johnson, so I'm fairly sure it's coming. 

[Numero Veinticinco]

7 minutes ago, Jairzinho said:

The two factors weren't a surprise though, were they? 

 

His own party briefing against him wasn't a surprise either. They're fucking snakes. Absolute fucking cunts that he should have jettisoned in his first six months in the job. 

 

He, unlike Starmer, did try and unite the party. It was a mistake. He should have fucked them off. 

If all the snakes are ejected from the mother fucking Labour plane, I'm not sure who'll be left to fly the thing. 

[Numero Veinticinco]

17 minutes ago, Arniepie said:

Genuinely unbelievable 

[Jairzinho]

Any idea what the change in methodology is? 

 

Has anyone ever been asked to take part in these things?