Should the UK remain a member of the EU

[chrisbonnie]

On 25/12/2021 at 21:14, Pidge said:

We had a pack of orange and lemon slices, usually come in a circle pack, but there was about 20% cut out this year. I asked where they were from, Ireland.

 

Brexit ruined Christmas.

Pre cut lemons and oranges, that's actually a thing? 

[Pidge]

25 minutes ago, chrisbonnie said:

Pre cut lemons and oranges, that's actually a thing? 

The old school sweets

 

[Mudface]

12 minutes ago, Pidge said:

The old school sweets

 

God, haven't seen those in years. My Nan always used to have them around, especially at Christmas.

[chrisbonnie]

41 minutes ago, Mudface said:

God, haven't seen those in years. My Nan always used to have them around, especially at Christmas.

I'm the same, I honestly haven't seen them in at least 30 years. 

 

I wasn't being a smart arse either with my original post, these sweets never even entered my mind. 

[Captain Willard]

13 hours ago, AngryOfTuebrook said:

Free movement within the EU is "blind to race". The UK experience of large-scale immigration from the EU wasn't one of "unemployed unskilled white Eastern Europeans" at all. The opposite was true: the "benefits tourists" were always a fiction created to distract and enrage readers of shitrags like the Daily Heil; many East European workers in the UK were hugely overqualified for the jobs they took.

 

But, apart from that, great post!

I didn’t use the phrase “benefits tourists” or say anything about welfare. 

 

I said the EU concept of free movement within the continent means free movement of mainly white people whilst restricting the entry to the continent of non white groups irrespective of their relative skills. This is undeniable. Points based immigration controls are not racist, country membership based controls are.
 

The EU is at its very core a collective endeavour to protect the interest of mainly white Europeans and their capital from foreign competition either in labour markets (free movement with country specific immigration controls on non European nationals) or imports (tariffs). You may think this a good or bad thing but that’s what it has always been, a big protectionist collective which has led to relatively higher food prices for decades, a huge transfer of wealth from tax paying workers to land owners and more recently high youth unemployment in member states. I really struggle to see why anybody on the left defends it. 

[AngryOfTuebrook]

8 minutes ago, Captain Willard said:

I didn’t use the phrase “benefits tourists” or say anything about welfare. 

 

I said the EU concept of free movement within the continent means free movement of mainly white people whilst restricting the entry to the continent of non white groups irrespective of their relative skills. This is undeniable. Points based immigration controls are not racist, country membership based controls are.
 

The EU is at its very core a collective endeavour to protect the interest of mainly white Europeans and their capital from foreign competition either in labour markets (free movement with country specific immigration controls on non European nationals) or imports (tariffs). You may think this a good or bad thing but that’s what it has always been, a big protectionist collective which has led to relatively higher food prices for decades, a huge transfer of wealth from tax paying workers to land owners and more recently high youth unemployment in member states. I really struggle to see why anybody on the left defends it. 

Nice backtracking.

 

Your argument that freedom of movement within the EU seems to rest solely on the fact that the population of the EU is predominantly white. That's such a laughably piss-weak argument.

 

You didn't use the phrase "benefits tourists" but you did characterise EU immigration as an influx of "unemployed, unskilled" people - that is the same fiction created by the right-wing shitrags.

[Code]

2 hours ago, Mudface said:

God, haven't seen those in years. My Nan always used to have them around, especially at Christmas.

They were lovely. 

[Pidge]

2 hours ago, chrisbonnie said:

I'm the same, I honestly haven't seen them in at least 30 years. 

 

I wasn't being a smart arse either with my original post, these sweets never even entered my mind. 

I didn't think you were, they're a standard Christmas purchase for our family but I know they're not for most people. My nan loves them, my sister loves them, they're a nice little pass around in the afternoon thing. 

 

Think they've been a bit out-competed by all the tubs of chocolate the supermarkets stack up by the doors these days.

[Captain Willard]

1 hour ago, AngryOfTuebrook said:

Nice backtracking.

 

Your argument that freedom of movement within the EU seems to rest solely on the fact that the population of the EU is predominantly white. That's such a laughably piss-weak argument.

 

You didn't use the phrase "benefits tourists" but you did characterise EU immigration as an influx of "unemployed, unskilled" people - that is the same fiction created by the right-wing shitrags.

Ok. To move the conversation on, what do you think, for the average working person in the UK, would be the 3 biggest advantages of rejoining the EU tomorrow? 

[AngryOfTuebrook]

1 hour ago, Captain Willard said:

Ok. To move the conversation on, what do you think, for the average working person in the UK, would be the 3 biggest advantages of rejoining the EU tomorrow? 

Off the top of my head, in no particular order:-

1.  Jobs. Membership of the EU is better for the economy and provides the conditions for job creation.

2. Conditions. EU members have to adhere to agreed minimum standards in terms of working conditions (and environmental & consumer protections). The Tory Brexiteers make no secret of the fact that they see workers' rights and our safety as "red tape" to be destroyed in the name of greater profits.

3. Peace in Ireland. It might not seem a day-to-day concern for workers in Britain, but anyone who grew up in the seventies or eighties would surely agree that we don't want to go back. (Obviously, this is a much more pressing concern in Norn Iron.)

4. Freedom of movement. It's not all about "them coming over here"; there was a lot of "us going over there". People my age were the first generation of working class British people who were able to live and work abroad without having to kill and Rob the locals.

[Captain Willard]

24 minutes ago, AngryOfTuebrook said:

Off the top of my head, in no particular order:-

1.  Jobs. Membership of the EU is better for the economy and provides the conditions for job creation.

2. Conditions. EU members have to adhere to agreed minimum standards in terms of working conditions (and environmental & consumer protections). The Tory Brexiteers make no secret of the fact that they see workers' rights and our safety as "red tape" to be destroyed in the name of greater profits.

3. Peace in Ireland. It might not seem a day-to-day concern for workers in Britain, but anyone who grew up in the seventies or eighties would surely agree that we don't want to go back. (Obviously, this is a much more pressing concern in Norn Iron.)

4. Freedom of movement. It's not all about "them coming over here"; there was a lot of "us going over there". People my age were the first generation of working class British people who were able to live and work abroad without having to kill and Rob the locals.

1. Uk economic growth is the highest of the G7 countries and predicted to remain the highest for the next 2 years. Inflation and house prices are the problem not job creation, 

2. Eu unemployment is 7% compared to 4% in the UK. Eu youth unemployment is a staggering 16%. The best protection of workers rights has been the ability of workers to shift to better employers and this is undermined by mass unemployment. The semi slave economies  of Amazon, sports direct, etc were built on a cheap supply of labour from Eastern Europe undermining the bargaining power of the uk working class whilst we part of the Eu. 

3. Nobody wants the situation in Ni to kick off again but thankfully it seems to be just unionist rhetoric so far. 

4. You can still live and work abroad. 

 

[AngryOfTuebrook]

11 minutes ago, Captain Willard said:

1. Uk economic growth is the highest of the G7 countries and predicted to remain the highest for the next 2 years. Inflation and house prices are the problem not job creation, 

2. Eu unemployment is 7% compared to 4% in the UK. Eu youth unemployment is a staggering 16%. The best protection of workers rights has been the ability of workers to shift to better employers and this is undermined by mass unemployment. The semi slave economies  of Amazon, sports direct, etc were built on a cheap supply of labour from Eastern Europe undermining the bargaining power of the uk working class whilst we part of the Eu. 

3. Nobody wants the situation in Ni to kick off again but thankfully it seems to be just unionist rhetoric so far. 

4. You can still live and work abroad. 

 

1. Current GDP growth rates are basically meaningless, because of the different impacts of the pandemic. What nobody denies is that membership of the EU establishes better medium/long-term economic conditions. The relevant comparisons aren't "UK vs other countries" but "UK vs models of UK performance had we remained in the EU".

 

2. It's simply untrue that workers "voting with their feet" is the best guarantor of rights. That may ring true in a Neo-liberal handbook, but in the real world all progress has been made by workers organising to improve their rights in the workplace and to campaign for law changes that protect their rights.

It is equally untrue that "the forrins" were to blame for undermining workers' rights in the UK. (One of Gnasher's favourite links provides evidence that, for the most part, EU immigration had no negative impacts on pay or employment; the exception being in the lowest-paid sectors, where UK law allowed exploitative employers to drive wages down.) Decades of neo-liberal governments - restrained only by the minimum standards set by the EU - did that.

 

3. I think you'll find that "nobody wanted" any armed conflict to start, in the history of the world. And yet, shit happens. The way to prevent violence is with a political settlement that's satisfactory to all parties. We had that, but Johnson and his sociopaths are prepared to risk throwing it away, to prevent some backbench MP for Tarbuck-on-the-Lob defecting to whatever party that grifter Farridge is running these days.

 

4. Not with full citizenship rights.

 

[Pureblood]

Fuck me, this is dull.  No offence, lads.

[Captain Willard]

22 minutes ago, AngryOfTuebrook said:

1. Current GDP growth rates are basically meaningless, because of the different impacts of the pandemic. What nobody denies is that membership of the EU establishes better medium/long-term economic conditions. The relevant comparisons aren't "UK vs other countries" but "UK vs models of UK performance had we remained in the EU".

 

2. It's simply untrue that workers "voting with their feet" is the best guarantor of rights. That may ring true in a Neo-liberal handbook, but in the real world all progress has been made by workers organising to improve their rights in the workplace and to campaign for law changes that protect their rights.

It is equally untrue that "the forrins" were to blame for undermining workers' rights in the UK. (One of Gnasher's favourite links provides evidence that, for the most part, EU immigration had no negative impacts on pay or employment; the exception being in the lowest-paid sectors, where UK law allowed exploitative employers to drive wages down.) Decades of neo-liberal governments - restrained only by the minimum standards set by the EU - did that.

 

3. I think you'll find that "nobody wanted" any armed conflict to start, in the history of the world. And yet, shit happens. The way to prevent violence is with a political settlement that's satisfactory to all parties. We had that, but Johnson and his sociopaths are prepared to risk throwing it away, to prevent some backbench MP for Tarbuck-on-the-Lob defecting to whatever party that grifter Farridge is running these days.

 

4. Not with full citizenship rights.

 

The economic arguments seems to have shifted from the apocalypse predicted by the remainers (of which I was one) to a new thesis that says “well yes the predicted apocalypse didn’t happen but the economy is not as strong as it would have been” . It’s not very convincing really given the consensus of predictions re relative growth and the high unemployment rate in the euro zone. 

There’s no evidence of any meaningful reduction in employment rights, in fact the Tory furlough scheme was one of the most generous in the world. There was no significant new adverse employment legislation in the Queens speech or the current Parliamentary timetable so I’m not sure what you think is going to happen and when ?

 

This is a link to the main employment law changes in 2021 and if anything they strengthen workers rights. 
 

https://www.hr-inform.co.uk/news-article/seven-crucial-employment-law-changes-in-2021

 

Anyway we are never going to agree so happy new year to you and your family. 

[Captain Howdy]

2 hours ago, Pureblood said:

Fuck me, this is dull.  No offence, lads.

You think this is bad, you should see the Coronavirus threads

[Pureblood]

Just now, Captain Howdy said:

You think this is bad, you should see the Coronavirus threads

I do think this is bad!  It has lost its pizzazz, this thread.

 

I must admit that as a remoaner, all of the scare stories about grounded planes and backed up trucks turned out to be bollocks. Doesn't mean it can't still happen, of course, but the fear aspect I think was overplayed to the detriment of the remain side. The truth was somewhere in the middle. 

 

Hopefully we will look back on the rona threads one day like we do this one, and it becomes something we can put behind us to some extent. 

[Gnasher]

3 hours ago, AngryOfTuebrook said:

Off the top of my head, in no particular order:-

1.  Jobs. Membership of the EU is better for the economy and provides the conditions for job creation.

 

 

Are you being fucking serious here? You trolling?

 

 

https://amp.theguardian.com/business/2021/sep/14/uk-payrolls-covid-job-vacancies-hotels-pubs-restaurants-staff

 

Have you looked at the unemployment rates throughout europe, Spain, Italy, Greece?  Have a look, then watch an Alan Bleadsdale adaptation from when the UK was in the UK and family's were so utterly destitute they walked into the sea to put an end to their suffering.

3 hours ago, AngryOfTuebrook said:

2. Conditions. EU members have to adhere to agreed minimum standards in terms of working conditions (and environmental & consumer protections). The Tory Brexiteers make no secret of the fact that they see workers' rights and our safety as "red tape" to be destroyed in the name of greater profits.

3. Peace in Ireland. It might not seem a day-to-day concern for workers in Britain, but anyone who grew up in the seventies or eighties would surely agree that we don't want to go back. (Obviously, this is a much more pressing concern in Norn Iron.)

4. Freedom of movement. It's not all about "them coming over here"; there was a lot of "us going over there". People my age were the first generation of working class British people who were able to live and work abroad without having to kill and Rob the locals.

 

 

[Rico1304]

NYE nights! Fucking hell you must have made a fortune.  

[Gnasher]

1 minute ago, Rico1304 said:

NYE nights! Fucking hell you must have made a fortune.  

Dockers made a cunt of you on your chosen subject of energy you two bob crank.

[Rico1304]

Just now, Gnasher said:

Dockers made a cunt of you on your chosen subject of energy you two bob crank.

Come on don’t be mean.  Think of the money!!!

[Gnasher]

Just now, Rico1304 said:

Come on don’t be mean.  Think of the money!!!

Go have another chat with Dave you two bob cunt.

[Rico1304]

1 minute ago, Gnasher said:

Go have another chat with Dave you two bob cunt.

£££££££££

[No2]

3 hours ago, Captain Willard said:

The economic arguments seems to have shifted from the apocalypse predicted by the remainers (of which I was one) to a new thesis that says “well yes the predicted apocalypse didn’t happen but the economy is not as strong as it would have been” . It’s not very convincing really given the consensus of predictions re relative growth and the high unemployment rate in the euro zone. 

There’s no evidence of any meaningful reduction in employment rights, in fact the Tory furlough scheme was one of the most generous in the world. There was no significant new adverse employment legislation in the Queens speech or the current Parliamentary timetable so I’m not sure what you think is going to happen and when ?

 

This is a link to the main employment law changes in 2021 and if anything they strengthen workers rights. 
 

https://www.hr-inform.co.uk/news-article/seven-crucial-employment-law-changes-in-2021

 

Anyway we are never going to agree so happy new year to you and your family. 

What's changed from you voting remain to not being able to think of just 3 benefits that membership would bring?

[Arniepie]

8 hours ago, Captain Willard said:

I didn’t use the phrase “benefits tourists” or say anything about welfare. 

 

I said the EU concept of free movement within the continent means free movement of mainly white people whilst restricting the entry to the continent of non white groups irrespective of their relative skills. This is undeniable. Points based immigration controls are not racist, country membership based controls are.
 

The EU is at its very core a collective endeavour to protect the interest of mainly white Europeans and their capital from foreign competition either in labour markets (free movement with country specific immigration controls on non European nationals) or imports (tariffs). You may think this a good or bad thing but that’s what it has always been, a big protectionist collective which has led to relatively higher food prices for decades, a huge transfer of wealth from tax paying workers to land owners and more recently high youth unemployment in member states. I really struggle to see why anybody on the left defends it. 

So Brexit is a completely anti racist concept and is attempt to benefit the lives of poor people from around the globe and not just europe?

[Arniepie]

Itnis quite an achievement to completely ignore the impact of thatchers policies which resulted in 3m unemployed in this country and blame it all on the eu tbf.