Strike Action

[Scrump]

No I got that - may be going a tad too far though to suggest a man's only daughter would be better off in some child sex trafficking ring than living with him - even if the personal vitriol he's directing towards public servants is also offensive. Just saying.

[Paul]

The essence of the anti-strike view from many on here seems to be, "My colleagues and I in the private sector allowed ourselves to be royally fucked in the ass over our terms and conditions and now we're not happy that you're refusing to bend over for more of the same." The bottom line is that people have a right to their legally binding terms and conditions and any change to them requires consent. I supported the right of BA cabin staff to stand up for themselves just as much as I support this. If the government, like BA, hadn't been so aggressive and high handed in its negotiations, we wouldn't be in this situation.

[Anubis]

No I got that - may be going a tad too far though to suggest a man's only daughter would be better off in some child sex trafficking ring than living with him - even if the personal vitriol he's directing towards public servants is also offensive. Just saying.

 

That's a 'no' vote to the tongue-in-cheek aspect, then? :(

[Guest Numero Veinticinco]

I highly doubt he has a daughter, to be honest.

[Scrump]

That's a 'no' vote to the tongue-in-cheek aspect, then? :(

 

Must have missed that in my instant shocked parent reaction :ermm:

[King Emlyn]

I highly doubt he has a daughter, to be honest.

To be perfectly honest I'm beginning to wonder if he has a dodgy liver.

[Scooby Dudek]

The essence of the anti-strike view from many on here seems to be, "My colleagues and I in the private sector allowed ourselves to be royally fucked in the ass over our terms and conditions and now we're not happy that you're refusing to bend over for more of the same."

 

Bang on.

 

Unfortunately that attitude is exactly what the Tories and their media chums are relying on/helping build up.

 

Edit: Obviously by Tories I mean ConDem coalition, least we forget Danny Alexander

[Anny Road]

The essence of the anti-strike view from many on here seems to be, "My colleagues and I in the private sector allowed ourselves to be royally fucked in the ass over our terms and conditions and now we're not happy that you're refusing to bend over for more of the same." The bottom line is that people have a right to their legally binding terms and conditions and any change to them requires consent. I supported the right of BA cabin staff to stand up for themselves just as much as I support this. If the government, like BA, hadn't been so aggressive and high handed in its negotiations, we wouldn't be in this situation.

 

I don't want to go to war with you over this issue Paul but that is probable one of the most ignorant posts I have ever read on this forum. Working class people and private sector people are not happy to get ''fucked in the arse'' they continue to work because they need to feed their families. It is work or fuck off. This is why teachers have little sympathy.

 

All this going to the union applies to a tiny minority of people.

 

Ask about, do a poll but I bet you less than 15% of people on this site for example are part of a union.

It is most patronising again and deeply offensive to suggest that we don't have the will or intelligence to stand up to employers. You are dead wrong and I object to that. People drag themselves to work to feed their kids and while you might have time to contemplate such things as life enhancement and work life balance most people are thinking about what's for tea.

[Ponz]

The essence of the anti-strike view from many on here seems to be, "My colleagues and I in the private sector allowed ourselves to be royally fucked in the ass over our terms and conditions and now we're not happy that you're refusing to bend over for more of the same."

 

The average business owner is not Phillip Green and the average private sector worker does not work for an investment bank. 60% of private sector employees in this country work for businesses with fewer than 250 employees. 50% work for businesses with fewer than 50 staff. The vast majority of these companies would go bankrupt if forced to provide the lavish final salary schemes offered in the public sector. The absence of strikes in this context reflects not a willingness to fight for one's interests but acceptance of basic economic reality.

[Stu Monty]

That's a fallacy of composition. Phillip Green's salary affects only the pension schemes of his employees (who by all means are entitled to protest). Every single private sector worker subsidises public sector pensions through the tax system.

 

Even if it were a valid analogy, that doesn't negate the issue at hand. Public sector workers receive 12% more in skill-adjusted salaries/benefits than the average private sector worker (nevermind the huge advantage in job security). The fact that a few rich twats in the private sector are vastly overpaid doesn't make that disparity justifiable.

 

I'm talking about him not paying tax, not his salary. The idea that there isn't enough cash to give everyone a good pension is just wrong.

 

There we go again Monty banging the commy drum. Phillip Green probably feeds more families and is responsible for more wage packets every week than you can imagine. Where would the public sector be without guys like Phillip Green. There wouldn't be one.

 

He generates wealth. He circulates cash. He takes it in creams of his cut and passes it on. More power to his elbow.

 

Wealth generation is a fallacy. The only time wealth is created is when the bank creates currency and devalues the pound in my pocket. There's resources and people; wealth is just a ranking system we've come up with.

 

I love the idea that Phillip Green invented selling clothes or food. The idea that someone else could do it, employ people, and at the same time pay his share of corporation tax and income tax. Why don't people get that? "If he left there'd be millions out of work" - No, there's be someone else to sell shit clothes and food but forced to pay tax on it properly. The idea that if the end game was for him to have a £4m fortune instead of a £4b on he'd just not bother getting up in the morning is laughable.

 

You cannot escape the fact that Paul is not fucking you in the ass, the top brass are; and you're apologising for them like some pathetic battered woman returning for more of the same.

 

 

The average business owner is not Phillip Green and the average private sector worker does not work for an investment bank. 60% of private sector employees in this country work for businesses with fewer than 250 employees. 50% work for businesses with fewer than 50 staff. The vast majority of these companies would go bankrupt if forced to provide the lavish final salary schemes offered in the public sector. The absence of strikes in this context reflects not a willingness to fight for one's interests but acceptance of basic economic reality.

 

Maybe they should go putting fires out, healing the sick and teaching our young then? If I was going to be marooned on an island and have to start a new civilisation with a group of people I reckon the public sector trained people would be way above the private workers on the list. Doctor? tick. Sales manager? Cross. Accountant? Er, sorry, non-essential.

 

I know that's a bit flippant but it does speak to an inherent truth about the value of core public sector roles.

 

Those companies shouldn't need to pay for the schemes. They pay corporation tax and the state looks after the elderly. It's a pretty decent system if people buy into it and don't route their profits offshore/cheat the taxman.

[Paulie Dangerously]

I wish I got a pension, any pension, in work

[dennis tooth]

There we go again Monty banging the commy drum. Phillip Green probably feeds more families and is responsible for more wage packets every week than you can imagine. Where would the public sector be without guys like Phillip Green. There wouldn't be one.

 

He generates wealth. He circulates cash. He takes it in creams of his cut and passes it on. More power to his elbow.

 

Hahahaha

[Skidfingers McGonical]

Bit of a twatty headline to get the people even more against the strikers from The Telegraph I see.

 

13-year-old girl crushed by tree during teacher strike - Telegraph

[Hermes]

The bottom line is that people have a right to their legally binding terms and conditions and any change to them requires consent.

 

Are they legally binding? if so then sue the Government. I don't know whether they are legally binding but I very much doubt they are.

[Whelan]

Bit of a twatty headline to get the people even more against the strikers from The Telegraph I see.

 

13-year-old girl crushed by tree during teacher strike - Telegraph

 

Oh the Mail goes one better!

 

Teachers' strike: Sophie Howard, 13, killed by falling branch while school was closed | Mail Online

[Section_31]

Oh the Mail goes one better!

 

Teachers' strike: Sophie Howard, 13, killed by falling branch while school was closed | Mail Online

 

At least she won't have to pay nine grand a year to go to uni.

[Section_31]

"A family friend said that complaints had been made to the council about 'dangerous' trees"

 

 

[Whelan]

At least she won't have to pay nine grand a year to go to uni.

 

I was wondering if those responsible for the upkeep of the park were from a private firm!

[Ponz]

Maybe they should go putting fires out, healing the sick and teaching our young then? If I was going to be marooned on an island and have to start a new civilisation with a group of people I reckon the public sector trained people would be way above the private workers on the list. Doctor? tick. Sales manager? Cross. Accountant? Er, sorry, non-essential.

 

If "public sector workers per capita" equals value, North Korea and Cuba would be the world's most prosperous societies.

 

How much healing do you think said Doctor would do without:

 

The engineers who design the devices used to treat/diagnose his patients.

The researchers and manufacturers who develop/produce the drugs he prescribes

The architects and construction workers who design/build his hospitals.

The transport/telecoms infrastructure that enables him to efficiently respond to emergencies

The investors who fund the above operations.

The myriad of private sector workers who provide him and his family with a comfortable and secure standard of living so that he's fully focused on the job.

 

It's non-sensical to speak of "essential" and "non-essential" roles in a complex, specialised modern economy.

[dennis tooth]

If "public sector workers per capita" equals value, North Korea and Cuba would be the world's most prosperous societies.

 

How much healing do you think said Doctor would do without:

 

The engineers who design the devices used to treat/diagnose his patients.

The researchers and manufacturers who develop/produce the drugs he prescribes

The architects and construction workers who design/build his hospitals.

The transport/telecoms infrastructure that enables him to efficiently respond to emergencies

The investors who fund the above operations.

The myriad of private sector workers who provide him and his family with a comfortable and secure standard of living so that he's fully focused on the job.

 

It's non-sensical to speak of "essential" and "non-essential" roles in a complex, specialised modern economy.

 

engineers- Educated by public money, massive reliance on government invvestment of public money in public buildings, road building etc

The architects -educated with public money

The architects and construction workers who design/build his hospitals.-Educated with public money or polish

The transport/telecoms infrastructure that enables him to efficiently respond to emergencies -The telecoms industry is massively always been dependant and was developed with public money, if any industry is built on public money its the telecoms industry. Even now with the rural broadband rollout all the private firms have to do now is charge for it and sit back and watch the mullah roll in.

 

And all of the above need doctors. Face it, these days all there is is public money and cayman islands money.

[TheBitch]

Posting off my phone so sorry for the lack of paragraphs. Good article though. The bolded bit's for Monty.

 

 

Polly Toynbee

The Guardian, Fri 1 Jul 2011 21.30 BST

Comment

I watched Thursday's strike in Birmingham, where a rally in Victoria Square, a march and pickets added to a successful day of protest, forcing the national news to shine a light on civil service pensions. Naturally the Times front page claimed "First strikes fail to spark"; the Sun said "Pension walkout a flop"; and the Mail called it "Day Britain defied the militants". But was this the "flop" No 10 claimed, or was it an outrageous public inconvenience as the Mail reported: "11,000 schools hit: The biggest teachers walk-out in a generation". Which way should they play it?

The day's success was not in numbers - always unreliable on all sides - but in exposing the government on the "gold-plated" public sector. Because the coalition does broad-brush bombast, not forensics, Francis Maude walked slap-bang into the same simple error on Today that flummoxed his colleague Justine Greening the day before. He had plainly not read John Hutton's report, perhaps no surprise, with cuts already fixed at £2.8bn before he reported.

As ever, Channel 4's FactCheck lifts the lid: David Cameron was wrong to say public pensions were "going broke"; Maude was wrong to claim costs were rising when Hutton's graph shows costs already falling. The Office for Budget Responsibility and the National Audit Office say there will be no rise. Why? The public accounts committee credits Labour's 2008 raising of civil servants' retirement age from 60 to 65, with many public pensions already switched from final salary to career average - cheaper and fairer to the lower paid. All this was done with negotiation. What's more, Hutton says there is no rush: this can wait until growth is healthier.

That leaves only Cameron's worst argument: public pensions are unfair because they are better than the private sector, where two thirds of employees have none at all. But that has become the lightbulb moment, when people suddenly realise just how many employers contribute nothing, while the taxpayer gives generous relief to the richest: FTSE 100 directors get an average £3.4m pension. Talking to strikers on Thursday, many only recently understood how much will be taken from their pay packets. Jason, a DWP benefits processor earning £18,500, has £45 a month taken in extra contributions: he may drop out. Michael, a careworker on £17,000, loses a similar sum; Doug, a teacher on £29,000, loses £130 a month; and Ashley, a crown prosecution admin officer on £19,000, loses £50 a month. Every one of these, mostly on middling-to-below median pay, face a hefty pay cut during a second year of pay freeze, with inflation at 4 to 5%.

I started out reporting on many industrial disputes through the 1970s, observing bitter conflicts between sometimes brutish managements and sometimes bullying trade unionists. It would have been quite unthinkable to take sums such as these out of people's pay, let alone to be cutting the pensions of those already retired. Ask human resources managers and you would find few companies ready to impose such conditions now, let alone provoke anger the way Danny Alexander did by announcing this is final, mid-negotiation. Surprisingly, the unions are less intransigent than you might expect: most accept there will be further cuts.

Thursday's strike was a reminder of how pitifully weak unions have become, undisguised by fighting words from Mark Serwotka or Dave Prentis promising a reprise of the General Strike. My colleague Aditya Chakrabortty wrote this week of IMF research showing how weak unionism fuels an extreme inequality that endangers economies. Money is sucked upwards, people borrow to survive and credit bubbles erupt. The IMF, hardly on the left, links inequality and weak bargaining for employees with economic instability.

In the decade to 2008, the high pay commission shows how the 34% GDP growth was so unfairly shared that 95% of the people received less while most went to the top 1%. The bottom 10% had nearly ten times less than GDP growth.

This year there were 50 times fewer strike days than in the dying days of the 1970s - not 50 days, but 50 times fewer. However, to measure union power by strike days would be a mistake: where unions are strongest and most successful, they don't need to strike. In Germany and Scandinavia they are so woven into management and the national structure that co-operation, not confrontation, benefits the economy. The 1970s ended in catastrophe for trade unionism. Now Labour needs to frame a new plan to give employees constructive power: Ed Miliband wants employees on remuneration committees, but they should be represented in boardrooms too.

This week the Tories tried to resurrect fears of the bad old 1970s - but it didn't work. Cameron tried to paint Miliband as the creature of the unions that elected him: he sidestepped that trap and rightly castigated the government's behaviour over the pensions issue. A bit of history may help: as far as I can discover, no Labour party has ever officially supported a strike, not the General Strike, nor any miners' strike. Shirley Williams was pilloried for joining the Grunwick picket line which later turned violent, but it wasn't Labour policy. Neil Kinnock was tormented for not backing the miners against Margaret Thatcher in 1984, or the six-month-long ambulance strike in 1989-90.

Public sympathy usually wanes: for all the Brassed Off popular romance, Arthur Scargill started out 2:1 against him and ended with 5:1 against. For Labour, a party aspiring to govern can't stand against an elected government, nor easily back producers against the people. Founded and financed by the unions, Labour has always stood apart, but of course that makes the party writhe.

On Thursday, according to Peter Kellner of YouGov, the people swung to support the public workers against Cameron by 50:40. But they didn't support the strike, with 50:40 against. The day of protest made its point forcefully, but unions need to nurture that public backing. Miliband says strikes are a sign of failure, but he needs to map out a better bargaining power for fairer long-term distribution of wealth. As for Cameron, his divide-and-rule strategy will fail. Had he talked to strikers and bystanders this week he would know how public and private workers are not separate tribes, but in the same households, parents, partners, sons and daughters. All use public services and many move fluidly between jobs in both sectors, truly all in this together.

[dennis tooth]

YouTube - ‪Anonymous to the Machine: You Will Rust and die from the blood of our hearts!‬‏

[BatChainPuller]

engineers- Educated by public money, massive reliance on government invvestment of public money in public buildings, road building etc

The architects -educated with public money

The architects and construction workers who design/build his hospitals.-Educated with public money or polish

The transport/telecoms infrastructure that enables him to efficiently respond to emergencies -The telecoms industry is massively always been dependant and was developed with public money, if any industry is built on public money its the telecoms industry. Even now with the rural broadband rollout all the private firms have to do now is charge for it and sit back and watch the mullah roll in.

 

And all of the above need doctors. Face it, these days all there is is public money and cayman islands money.

 

And of course - paid for by banks - saved with public money.

 

Quality post Dennis - particularly enjoyed the 'or polish' part.

[Ponz]

engineers- Educated by public money, massive reliance on government invvestment of public money in public buildings, road building etc

The architects -educated with public money

The architects and construction workers who design/build his hospitals.-Educated with public money or polish

The transport/telecoms infrastructure that enables him to efficiently respond to emergencies -The telecoms industry is massively always been dependant and was developed with public money, if any industry is built on public money its the telecoms industry. Even now with the rural broadband rollout all the private firms have to do now is charge for it and sit back and watch the mullah roll in.

 

And all of the above need doctors. Face it, these days all there is is public money and cayman islands money.

 

If the criteria is receiving state financed or subsidised education, the vast majority of the population belong in Monty's "inherently valuable" category of professions. That just undercuts the argument further.

 

And all of that funding comes from private sector tax payers. The money isn't conjured up from thin air for our benefit.

[mars]

If "public sector workers per capita" equals value, North Korea and Cuba would be the world's most prosperous societies.

 

How much healing do you think said Doctor would do without:

 

The engineers who design the devices used to treat/diagnose his patients.

The researchers and manufacturers who develop/produce the drugs he prescribes

The architects and construction workers who design/build his hospitals.

The transport/telecoms infrastructure that enables him to efficiently respond to emergencies

The investors who fund the above operations.

The myriad of private sector workers who provide him and his family with a comfortable and secure standard of living so that he's fully focused on the job.

 

It's non-sensical to speak of "essential" and "non-essential" roles in a complex, specialised modern economy.

 

Wonder if I taught any of the above?