Roy Hodgson on 4-4-2

[Nebnotsew]

I'm an advocate of 4-2-3-1 but however in a 4-4-2 system Torres at least won't be the sole concern of the 2 centre backs and hopefully wouldn't get kicked off the pitch as much.

 

I don't like seeing us linked with Crouch because hes too much of a one dimensional player, its not like he can move out wide and play there. Not enough fluidity with Crouch in the team for me.

[zigackly]

In football you have to evolve and what worked last season may not work next season. Playing Gerrard off Torres worked superbly for a run of games at the end of 2008/2009 and they were unplayable, but last season when they played teams were doubling up midfielders on Gerrard and defenders on Torres and there was no line of supply between the two. If we allow Gerrard to come from deeper and have another forward to stop them putting two players on Torres then more space will be available for both of them to work their magic. You never know, the other forward might be someone who can get us a few more goals as well and cover for Torres when he's out.

[PaulMcC]

The main reason Torres Gerrard partnership didn't work is Gerrard had a shit season and Torres seemed to be constantly comingback from injury and rarely looked fully fit.

[zigackly]

That was a factor certainly, but you know as well as I do that a lot of teams were also marking them differently. If we play like that again next season I would expect everyone we play to do it.

[Dan Vito Corleone]

I liked the five groups of two he showed in the 4-4-2 system, showing how everyone had support.

 

He mentioned width several times - it will be interesting to see if our team plays with more width this season.

 

To be fair your grace, it's hard for us to play with any less width!

[Juan Galonso]

Buy an attacking left back and 3-5-2 is the way to go. It covers the lack of pace, allows Johnson to get forward, frees up Agger to bring the ball out of defence and start attacks like Hansen.

 

Agree with this and it is something I hope we would be looking at for next season judging by the personnel we currently have available.

 

Gerrard could have that position McManaman had when we had it under Evans which means he still wouldn't have to worry too much about defensive responsibilities.

[Juan Galonso]

In football you have to evolve and what worked last season may not work next season. Playing Gerrard off Torres worked superbly for a run of games at the end of 2008/2009 and they were unplayable, but last season when they played teams were doubling up midfielders on Gerrard and defenders on Torres and there was no line of supply between the two. If we allow Gerrard to come from deeper and have another forward to stop them putting two players on Torres then more space will be available for both of them to work their magic. You never know, the other forward might be someone who can get us a few more goals as well and cover for Torres when he's out.

 

The 4231 was excellent when Xabi, Stevie and Torres were in full flow it worked a treat but my problem last season was we were sticking with it no matter who the personnel were and really it was reliant on those three players being on form to truly get the best out of it.

[Il Fenomeno]

The 4231 was excellent when Xabi, Stevie and Torres were in full flow it worked a treat but my problem last season was we were sticking with it no matter who the personnel were and really it was reliant on those three players being on form to truly get the best out of it.

 

The problem was Gerrard's attitude, he didn't make any movements whatsoever most of the time. It was like a 4-4-2 because Gerrard was playing right alongside Torres instead of dropping deep to look for the ball or making himself available like he usually does. And the thing is with our squad size Gerrard knows he's undroppable so it's quite hard to keep people motivated when there is nothing up for grabs and there would be no reward for winning games. Can't blame the formation really, just the attitude of certain players (Masch early part, Gerrard later on)

[hamstrung]

Buy 11 good players

 

"Go out and play"

 

The odd manly slap on the arse.

[Brownie]

He played with 1 man up front for Fulham. Zamora. Gera played in behind so it was a 4411. I'd rather have the wide players further forward in a 42312.

 

He also played Murphy and Etuhu as, essentially, holding players.

 

I don't have a problem with two central midfielders sitting; when one of them is a terrier like player and the other is a play-maker, it's a good balance. Unfortunately we didn't have that last season though.

 

If we can bring in a good play-maker then 4231 is a good option I reckon, if not, 442 may be the way forward.

[Squabblefest]

The problem was Gerrard's attitude, he didn't make any movements whatsoever most of the time. It was like a 4-4-2 because Gerrard was playing right alongside Torres instead of dropping deep to look for the ball or making himself available like he usually does. Can't blame the formation really, just the attitude of certain players (Masch early part, Gerrard later on)

 

I felt like that as well.

 

After the first ten or so games when it was obvious we were in the shit and it was roll your sleeves up time, I was surprised to not see more from Gerrard.

 

Others may disagree, but the only barnstorming performances I can remember seeing were Bolton away and the second half against West Ham at ours. I know it's unfair to criticize him for not being man of the fucking match every second game, but I got sick of him being the most talented player on the pitch and just not putting a shift in.

[llego]

Well if winning teams use it, clearly they weren't talking about us. We've put up with it for at least 2 seasons now, and all it won was a record points total since 1992.

 

I detest the system, it's cautious, leaves you vulnerable, and is completely useless when you have to create chances and chase games. Even the winning teams get caught out with it eventually.

 

It's not my favourite system, but at least a 4-4-2 provides balance of 2 players in each position. A 4-2-3-1 relies on one player to make it work. If not, it fails. For us, it's a system for trips to mancland, chelsea and the arse. The rest of the time, we need to win games, and select an attacking formation. I hope we'll see a better formation this season.

 

That's rubbish. Listen to what Woy is saying. Formations are just playing with numbers, what matters are the tendencies and skillsets of the players within them. Ever seen one of those formation diagrams with the little arrows on some of the players? That's describing their favored movement, so if you have a 4-2-3-1 where your AM pushes on and one of your CM does as well while your striker drops off there's your 4-4-2. Or if you have a 4-4-2 where one striker comes deep for the ball while your wingers stay high up on the pitch thats a 4-2-3-1.

 

You think 4-2-3-1 is always negative? Well that's what Germany's been playing this world cup. Highest goal return in years and beautiful attacking play.

 

The 4231 was excellent when Xabi, Stevie and Torres were in full flow it worked a treat but my problem last season was we were sticking with it no matter who the personnel were and really it was reliant on those three players being on form to truly get the best out of it.

 

Exactly right. And you really need at least one CM who can quickly shift from defense to attack when possession changes- neither Lucas nor Mascherano had that capability. They both preferred patient play with short passes. Watching Schweinsteiger for Germany what really marks him out is his grand vision and sweeping attacking intent.

[Guest LFD]

Interesting watching Roy talking about the 3-5-2 formation and saying how it is most effective when full backs play in the back three as they are comfortable out wide and also how the defensive midfielder needs to be able to slot into the back and cover when needed, as Paul Ince did for England.

 

Think Scharner is the exact type of player who would be able to do that defensive midfielder role effectively as he plays as a centre back as well as a holding midfielder.

 

Also with Carragher and Agger both playing as full backs before maybe Roy is looking at 3-5-2 as an option next season for the odd game.

[bobhorse]

The thing with sytems is that you have to have the players good enough to play them if you look at the World Cup the 2 teams in the final play 4-3-3

The Germans where more 4-4-1-1 and Uraguay were 4-4-2 does that mean that 4-4-2 is the worst of them ?

 

both Spain and Holand are blessed with players who can join the front man Villa for Spain and Robin for the Dutch and both teams have midfiels player who work ther socks off and have good skill Alonso Xavi Busquest and Inesta Kuyt Sneijder De Jong and Van Bomell and both have attacking full backs in Ramos and Capdevila and Van Bronckhorse etc in other words perfect players for that system of play but they can also move to the 4-4-2 or 4-5-1 system should they need to because the players can adapt we have players just like these in our squad and again they are able to adapt but pace is lacking in the wide areas with the players we have at the moment Roy has a brilliant base of tallent with which to work with and the sale of a few squad players should give him the funds he requires to add what is missing to get us back into the top 4 again

To do this IMHO he will have to be able to finish above Spurs Villa and Everton plus 1 other team from City United Chelsea and Arsenal that will take a great deal of Skill and a lot of luck

[Paul]

In football you have to evolve and what worked last season may not work next season. Playing Gerrard off Torres worked superbly for a run of games at the end of 2008/2009 and they were unplayable, but last season when they played teams were doubling up midfielders on Gerrard and defenders on Torres and there was no line of supply between the two. If we allow Gerrard to come from deeper and have another forward to stop them putting two players on Torres then more space will be available for both of them to work their magic. You never know, the other forward might be someone who can get us a few more goals as well and cover for Torres when he's out.

 

I agree it didn't work last season. However, I saw that as being down to the fitness problems the two of them had and, more crucially, the gaping, Xabi-shaped hole in central midfield. All season long we were horribly lacking in a someone who could use the ball properly in the middle. We could've had Messi up front last season and he'd have struggled to get into double figures because there was no fucker to give him the ball.

[Pidge]

Just as an added, and not a dig at Kuyt as he simply missed a chance at the end of it, but remember that passing movement we did at Anfield end of last season when three of ours made about 6 short, neat passes between themselves, then it went out to the wing for a cross to Kuyt and his shot went over? That passing movement on the edge of the box before it got knocked out onto the wing is exactly the type of thing that the 3 in a 4-2-3-1 need to be confident enough to do for it to really work. Can't remember the 3, but two of them were Aqui and Gerrard. If the 3 in that formation are capable of that then a 4-2-3-1 isn't a problem, it's a bonus.

 

Pretty sure Maxi was the Third man in this equation, however I think Gerrard was playing as one of the two on that occasion.

[piscinin]

ROCK. PAPER. SCISSORS.

[danperkins]

Ah this is a refreshing thread. Hodgson is well renowned for his knowledge of the game, nice to see him openly talk abut it and explain the formation etc

 

I think the back 4 is a given as he said, as regards the midfield & fiel in my opinion it really depends of the personnel, in regards to creativity,ability,work rate etc obviously the more ability or talent the more options you have available and bot be pigeon holed into a certain system. I think it seems the norm to have a destroyer and a playmaker in the middle, hence why Masch/Alonso worked so well, tonight for example teams like Spain seem to get away without the "destroyer" because the whole team work rate is top notch, where as Dutch have 2 destroyers in their team, complete opposites, completely depends on personnel. Very rarely will u see a player in CM who can do both ala Essien Or Schweinstiger

 

I hope Roy finds the right system for the players we have available come that first game, gonna be really interesting to see what he comes up with. Thanks to initial posters, great thread something different

[llego]

ROCK. PAPER. SCISSORS.

 

If it's all so simple spell it out in terms of formations then-

 

3-5-2 beats 4-4-2

4-4-2 beats 4-3-3

4-3-3 beats 3-5-2?