Who was responsible for the "demise" of Liverpool?

[RedLiberation!]

There's a big danger in some of these comments.We've recently seen that forum stuff is being bent out of context and planted in the newspapers.Its also being used by the two Satans in their ploys.

 

I utterly despised David Moores. But demise means "death". He handed us over to 2 murderers. Some of what he did was shocking yes. And selling to them was beyond shocking.

The club isn't "dead" yet, but wihout drastic action, its now terminally ill.

 

Under Rafa we won the European Cup etc.All we needed was the stadium and a little more

RESPONSIBLE commercial activity.And we could have turned a proportion of it around.

 

Under Moores we were underperfoming.With those 2 evil twats we've gone from "unperforming" to being "raped, pillaged and quickly leeched to death" by two vampires.

 

THAT is true culpability.

[nimrod]

Gary Ablett . . . When he was considered good enough to play for LFC, that was were Dalglish showed his lack of judgement with regard to defensive players.

Just my opinion.

[RedLiberation!]

Negged.

 

1. Txt spk.

2. Smiley gluttony.

 

Thanks I take that as a compliment Mr Kanwar.

I didn't know English teachers were so knowledgeable about football...

[23_Carra_Gold]

NO wind up marra.

 

I refrained from posting, after our game, because I thought it might be seen that way.

 

However, If I understand more about your history than you do then please do not be shy - just say so!

 

;)

 

I don't mean to be rude, especially if you are indeed 'owld', but you can fuck right off chap.

 

Stick to your smalltime club who sing YNWA to wind up the Mancs. You could never understand what supporting a classy football club is about so don't even bother trying to preach to those who do.

[Dicko]

I don't mean to be rude, especially if you are indeed 'owld', but you can fuck right off chap.

 

Stick to your smalltime club who sing YNWA to wind up the Mancs. You could never understand what supporting a classy football club is about so don't even bother trying to preach to those who do.

 

You sound like a Manc right there. And that arrogance is why they are detested.

 

Perhaps you should become more acquainted with why Sunderland supporters do sing it at Utd. Let me enlighten you it involves them twats singing about Hillsborough.

 

As for us being a classy football club that's a fucking sick joke.

[23_Carra_Gold]

You sound like a Manc right there. And that arrogance is why they are detested.

 

Perhaps you should become more acquainted with why Sunderland supporters do sing it at Utd. Let me enlighten you it involves them twats singing about Hillsborough.

 

As for us being a classy football club that's a fucking sick joke.

 

Sorry if I don't take kindly to a Mackem coming on here and prattling on about how he knows more about my club then we do.

 

Yeah are you sure about that? Here's a description off a YouTube video of them singing YNWA...

 

'Sunderland sold out once again and us Sunderland fans got bored of Man Utd not singing at Old Trafford so we decided to Sing You'll Never Walk Alone, we knew it would liven up the Man Utd fans,'

 

Nothing do with Hillsborough songs mate.

[WaltonRed]

Moores

[Redshadow]

I know it may sound odd coming from an LFC fan but I actually agree to some extent with the original poster - I think Dalglish DOES have a lot to answer for from his time in charge of the club - Yes, Souness tore down the tottering edifice with not a clue how to fix it but it was under Dalglish, NOT he that the REAL damage was done in my opinion;

 

Consider;

 

He DID practically abolish the tried and trusted system of bringin quality players (often for affordable fees ala Lawrenson, Whelan, Rush etc) through the reserve system and then integrating them into the first team in favour of what? A mixture of the odd player (mainly defenders) brought through from the reserves and backed up by a number of marquee signings and a whole series of quick fix bought for the moment (and often old) signings to fill in the gaps that soon appeared in the team ala Speedie, Rosenthal etc - Yes he bought quality players in Houghton, Beardsley, Rush (for the 2nd time) and Aldridge as well as the phenomenon that was John Barnes but consider - noticed something about all his big signings yet? - Not one was a defender. I think even Kenny realised his error towards the end of his reign as he started to buy a load more younger players who were clearly going to be groomed in the reserves in the 'Liverpool Way' as they had been through the 1980's - players like Redknapp, Fowler, Hutchison, Tanner etc could have been the basis of a great title winning team in my opinion had Kenny stayed but then Hillsborough happened, Kenny lost his focus on winning and he abandoned the whole setup with a job not a quarter complete.

 

Don't get me wrong - Kenny DID bring through/use some good defenders like Alex Watson, Steve Staunton and Gary Ablett (again ALL through the reserves) but I think that when Dalglish abandoned the practice of bringing the whole future first team through the reserves and teaching them to play the same way as the first team/fit in the system (as Rafa' is TRYING to rebuild now and as Arsenal DO), I think THAT is when the Liverpool machine, the team and myth feared by the world of football at large, suffered it's fatal blow; It wasn't Hillsborough or Heysel (although they and the loss of European experience didn't help matters or morale) It wasn't even entirely Souness' fault (although if he'd been a more competent manager, he'd have perservered with a lot of the 'older' players and brought through the youngsters as Dalglish should have done), it was when we allowed time to catch up with our team renewal from the reserves, abandoned the practice in favour of buying success and then didn't replace the old methods properly, THAT is when and how our downfall started as we basically replaced a homegrown, homogeneous, disciplined, determined, WINNING unit that self-renewed via a club system unrivalled by any at the time bar Ajax with a team that was fine while winning but whose main motivation was eventually seen to be money and NOT medals - The desire to win for Liverpool was lost and with it went our dominance;

 

Yes, Dalglish created one of the most beautiful (and devastating) Liverpool teams EVER but in the process he took away one of the prime tenants that had underpinned our success throughout the '80's and after that had gone, it didn't take long for us to find that with it went our dominance because as Dalglish's multi-title winning unit got old - where were the replacements? It's a question we're STILL striving to answer now and there is your answer as to where our dominance went - it went with our reserve grooming system and we STILL haven't replaced it - We'll know when we have done as THAT is when the titles will start rolling in again - God knows I hope that's soon as it's been FAR to long since our last title but the foundations for this barren period were there for all to see if you just study the reign of Dalglish closely - the slide began on his watch, he did little to arrest it for the future and I think you can safely say that we've paid for that colossal error ever since then.........................................

[WaltonRed]

Kenny lost his way after that fateful day in April of 1989, i dont know how anyone can even dare to have a go at him.

[Redshadow]

I'm not having a go at him - I fully realise that he lost his way and needed a break after 15-04-89 (to be honest I think he SHOULD have either gone at the end of that season OR pulled LFC out of all their fixtures that season as football didn't matter by the end of that season).

 

But if you look at it objectively in entirely football terms both before AND after 1989 you will see that Kenny DID demolish our old 'reserve grooming' system of bringing through fairly cheap players to replace established stars and when he did that, he damaged probably the main touchstone out of all them for our success which was the replacement of established stars with GOOD replacements for adequate prices - Ever since then we've been spend, spend, spending to try and catch up that last, lost bit of ground (Which annoyingly has only come into view 3 times since 1990 - in 1991, 2002 and 2009 - All 3 times, we've immediately nosedived in the following season rather irritatingly). I wonder if anyone's considered - maybe the answer to our current plight under Rafa' is not in the transfer market and costs millions at all but instead is in our own VERY talented reserve team -

 

For example I think Daniel Ayala looks like a good future centre half for us and he's GOT to have more to offer than that lumbering Greek Oil Tanker Kyrgiakos - best of all he'd cost nothing; Then there's the question of who to play out of Andrei Voronin or Dani' Pacheco which isn't so much a question as a statement of how embarrassing it must be for Pacheco that he STILL isn't in the team thanks to THAT Ukrainian. Basically I think we should go back one step to what we USED to do in order to make that final step up that we all desire - It can't hurt to try and it's not as if buying our way to the top has worked since 1990 has it? Like I said, maybe the answer lies in the club's past and the reintroduction of the system Dalglish abandoned........................

[Redshadow]

Sorry - forgot to mention Mr David Moores in all this - HE is the one constant since he became Chairman in 1991 in us not winning the title until now - HE restrained Souness' spending and was behind the 'Cash Restraints' that stopped Roy Evans completing his fine team in the making with a couple of decent centre halfs, HE is the one that perservered in the face of EVERYTHING with managers like Souness and Houllier when their days were obviously done; It was HIS leadership (sorry lack of) in 1998 that led to the joint managership debacle and then there's his leaving of the club - I'd love to say that nothing became him with our club like his leaving of it but actually the opposite is true; If you added up ALL his previous fcukups and multiplied them by 10 you STILL wouldn't come close to how utterly, completely, ridiculously, jaw droppingly stupid and just plain dumb it was for him to sell out to the Yanks like that, I could say more but when you look at how bad a chairman he was it actu........

 

No sorry I'm speechless, if ever a man was responsible for hobbling Liverpool behind the scenes JUST when we needed strong leadership to combat the Manc's emergence, then Moores could write a book on how he crippled us - He certainly did an effective job didn't he? Heaven only knows how long it will take us to recover from his ahem 'chairmanship' for whatever he did, he certainly did NOT act in the best interests of Liverpool Football Club, quite the opposite in fact...............................

[The Owld Fecker]

I know it may sound odd coming from an LFC fan but I actually agree to some extent with the original poster - I think Dalglish DOES have a lot to answer for from his time in charge of the club - Yes, Souness tore down the tottering edifice with not a clue how to fix it but it was under Dalglish, NOT he that the REAL damage was done in my opinion;

 

Consider;

 

He DID practically abolish the tried and trusted system of bringin quality players (often for affordable fees ala Lawrenson, Whelan, Rush etc) through the reserve system and then integrating them into the first team in favour of what? A mixture of the odd player (mainly defenders) brought through from the reserves and backed up by a number of marquee signings and a whole series of quick fix bought for the moment (and often old) signings to fill in the gaps that soon appeared in the team ala Speedie, Rosenthal etc - Yes he bought quality players in Houghton, Beardsley, Rush (for the 2nd time) and Aldridge as well as the phenomenon that was John Barnes but consider - noticed something about all his big signings yet? - Not one was a defender. I think even Kenny realised his error towards the end of his reign as he started to buy a load more younger players who were clearly going to be groomed in the reserves in the 'Liverpool Way' as they had been through the 1980's - players like Redknapp, Fowler, Hutchison, Tanner etc could have been the basis of a great title winning team in my opinion had Kenny stayed but then Hillsborough happened, Kenny lost his focus on winning and he abandoned the whole setup with a job not a quarter complete.

 

Don't get me wrong - Kenny DID bring through/use some good defenders like Alex Watson, Steve Staunton and Gary Ablett (again ALL through the reserves) but I think that when Dalglish abandoned the practice of bringing the whole future first team through the reserves and teaching them to play the same way as the first team/fit in the system (as Rafa' is TRYING to rebuild now and as Arsenal DO), I think THAT is when the Liverpool machine, the team and myth feared by the world of football at large, suffered it's fatal blow; It wasn't Hillsborough or Heysel (although they and the loss of European experience didn't help matters or morale) It wasn't even entirely Souness' fault (although if he'd been a more competent manager, he'd have perservered with a lot of the 'older' players and brought through the youngsters as Dalglish should have done), it was when we allowed time to catch up with our team renewal from the reserves, abandoned the practice in favour of buying success and then didn't replace the old methods properly, THAT is when and how our downfall started as we basically replaced a homegrown, homogeneous, disciplined, determined, WINNING unit that self-renewed via a club system unrivalled by any at the time bar Ajax with a team that was fine while winning but whose main motivation was eventually seen to be money and NOT medals - The desire to win for Liverpool was lost and with it went our dominance;

 

Yes, Dalglish created one of the most beautiful (and devastating) Liverpool teams EVER but in the process he took away one of the prime tenants that had underpinned our success throughout the '80's and after that had gone, it didn't take long for us to find that with it went our dominance because as Dalglish's multi-title winning unit got old - where were the replacements? It's a question we're STILL striving to answer now and there is your answer as to where our dominance went - it went with our reserve grooming system and we STILL haven't replaced it - We'll know when we have done as THAT is when the titles will start rolling in again - God knows I hope that's soon as it's been FAR to long since our last title but the foundations for this barren period were there for all to see if you just study the reign of Dalglish closely - the slide began on his watch, he did little to arrest it for the future and I think you can safely say that we've paid for that colossal error ever since then.........................................

 

 

Great post marra and one that highlights the details far more eloquently than I ever could.

[Redshadow]

Good post Carra is Legend - Arrogance is probably our REAL sin - THAT is why Dalglish thought we could safely replace tried and trusted servants (ala Twentyman, Lawler) and systems (going from grooming success to buying it) and THAT is why that useless tw*t Moores WAS useless - he was arrogant, hugely so - he felt NO sense of urgency given how far ahead of United we were and he thought that selling for a couple of extra million to those two nice (yea right) American Businessmen couldn't POSSIBLY do any harm.....could it? Erm, yes;

 

But Red Liberation you're wrong - we are NOT a club in it's death throes at present - We may look like we're on the critical list and we're certainly in worse health off the pitch than I can ever remember thanks to the 2 Yank p*icks (if something isn't done about them soon, I MIGHT just dust down the old double barrel shotgun in the shed myself LOL I wish) but they have one HUGE weakness that gives me hope and that is that IF LFC's performance dips to far below 'expected' levels they HAVE to either dip into their own pockets or find new money to keep us competitive OR they will have to go, simple as because IF the club isn't making any new money - guess who the debts then become the responsibility of to pay and guess who the banks will FORCE to sell if necessary as they will panic and want the largest possible return in the quickest possible time?

 

Yep, the owners will stand responsible and THAT is why they're panicking and releasing ridiculous stories about '100 million' warchests for January (and I'll believe THAT one when I see it); The owners are panicking because you see, they KNOW they can't reinforce the club on their current, pathetic excuse for a strategy as it relies on THEM getting rich on the SMALLEST possible expense level - the minute that stops (they don't get rich or they HAVE to invest more) you won't see them for dust and we WON'T see them for dust before long - have faith, these things take time but believe me when I tell you the clock now most definitely IS ticking for Hicks & Gillette and their time at Liverpool is almost up now - and not a moment to soon either - I can only hope their plane crashes in the Atlantic somewhere to punish them for what they've done but trust me, they'll be gone soon enough, time will tell, sooner or later, time WILL tell............................................

[Hermes]

 

Good post hermes. I did spend half an hour looking for the pun though.

 

You always do.

 

He who laughs last.................doesn't understand the joke.

[RedLiberation!]

But Red Liberation you're wrong - we are NOT a club in it's death throes at present - We may look like we're on the critical list and we're certainly in worse health off the pitch than I can ever remember thanks to the 2 Yank p*icks (if something isn't done about them soon, I MIGHT just dust down the old double barrel shotgun in the shed myself LOL I wish) but they have one HUGE weakness that gives me hope and that is that IF LFC's performance dips to far below 'expected' levels they HAVE to either dip into their own pockets or find new money to keep us competitive OR they will have to go, simple as because IF the club isn't making any new money - guess who the debts then become the responsibility of to pay and guess who the banks will FORCE to sell if necessary as they will panic and want the largest possible return in the quickest possible time?

 

Yep, the owners will stand responsible and THAT is why they're panicking and releasing ridiculous stories about '100 million' warchests for January (and I'll believe THAT one when I see it); The owners are panicking because you see, they KNOW they can't reinforce the club on their current, pathetic excuse for a strategy as it relies on THEM getting rich on the SMALLEST possible expense level - the minute that stops (they don't get rich or they HAVE to invest more) you won't see them for dust and we WON'T see them for dust before long - have faith, these things take time but believe me when I tell you the clock now most definitely IS ticking for Hicks & Gillette and their time at Liverpool is almost up now - and not a moment to soon either - I can only hope their plane crashes in the Atlantic somewhere to punish them for what they've done but trust me, they'll be gone soon enough, time will tell, sooner or later, time WILL tell............................................

 

But this is the problem. Hope alone is never enough. Action is needed.

At best, all they want to be is "competing".And with Man City, that will mean "competing for 4th" - another Villa, Everton or those nobodies.

 

The club we knew and loved is gone. If they were out tomorrow, yes we could resuccitate it. But this is like a shapeshifter has taken over the body.

EVERY PENNY at the club comes from fans and all they will do is take out.

 

I'm not sure on the RBS terms. If I bought a roller and couldnt afford the repayments, I might have problems trying to sell the engine to meet those repayments. Therefore, there may be problems with selling key assets ( infact Rafa has this problem last yr -remember).

 

Man City fans I remember went in and threatened chairman Peter Swales' mother with death a few yrs back. He sold up straight away.In some of Italy and much of S America, I believe the 2 cunts would have been dead a long time by now. But we just seem to wind up as "victims".

 

If fans owned the club we'd be cutting out the vampire middleman.It would be going from hell to heaven.

 

These Arabs, ok they'd be vastly better than the 2 rats. But compared to fan ownership, I just feel pretty uncomfortable about some so called "Royal" calling the shots surrounded by scurrying lackies. But, ANYTHING is better than those 2 rats.

[Skidfingers McGonical]

George Gillett got death threats. He said. Oh yes.

 

The FBI are still chasing doughnuts and enquiries.

[RedLiberation!]

George Gillett got death threats. He said. Oh yes.

 

A few months back, the cops were advising the 2 rats not to attend Anfield on safety grounds.Now they're confiscating protest leaflets and banners.

 

Having those rats at Anfield is endangering OTHER people's safety.

I'm just waiting for the Urchins to put these 2 top of their agenda.

[Carlos Durninio]

Anyone who blames Kenny and dismisses the effect Hillsborough had on him, the club and city as a whole is either .a A johnny-come-lately gloryhunter who never lived through the experience. Or b. Clueless - even if they do write RAWK style stupidly long, patronising posts to prove how much information they've found on the internet.

[Vulmea]

firstly the club goes on - no demise I'm aware of - think w are ranked 3 in europe

 

second we dont live in tabloid land - there is no one reason for us no longer being as successful as we were

 

Hillsborough, Managers, Sky TV, Uefa and their ridiculous rules, Abramovich, Ferguson, athleticism, they have all played a part in taking the game form being about football to finances, from a working class game to a middle class entertainment - its as much about how the game has changed as anything thts happened on the pitch or with LFC.

[Redshadow]

No Carlos it WASN'T from information I found on the internet that I wrote my post - it was from my own memories (and YOU are a patronising idiot if you assume that I either came to support us recently OR that I'm clueless when I'm neither - my post was not patronising, it explained my position - if you dislike/mock that then you sir are the fool not I) but most of all it was my own OPINION and isn't that what this site is about? I've long thought that Kenny did SOMETHING wrong while in charge at our club and this is despite the affect Hillsborough had on him as I think the problem in question started long BEFORE Hillsborough - It just took the initial post of this thread for me to figure out exactly WHAT Kenny did wrong and it was the dismantling of our old system of bringing good, but untried players through the reserves to turn them into battle hardened, seasoned veteran stars - THAT more than anything else contributed to our downfall - else how do you explain our club going along merrily and fine despite the Heysel ban before Kenny and during the early part of his reign and then the utter chaos and disintegration of an empire that came at the very end of his time as our manager and after he'd gone?

 

The only thing that explains what went wrong/disappeared was the loss of our reserves grooming system - It dried up/removed a regular supply of affordable, steady players that before had always formed the heart of our teams and ALLOWED the managers to concentrate what money they DID spend on stars and forward players etc - After Kenny and partly BECAUSE of what he did - our managers tried to buy entire teams instead of forming them from players brought through the reserves and buying the best players to complete the team; It's clear therefore that THIS is where we went wrong. The other main factors behind our demise include the utter disaster that was the chairmanship of David Moores (which has been detailed in depth elsewhere and needs no elaboration from me). Finally, there's the arrogance that affected our club at all levels by 1990 - we just thought success would come naturally and that as we were the best, why bother taking steps to stay on top? Success would just CONTINUE coming wouldn't it? Well that was our club (and fans) idea back then and how wrong was that? I think we can safely say that events since 1990 have shown just HOW wrong we were in those disastrous assumptions.....................................

[GRADY]

I dont think you can blame Dalglish for the demise of Liverpool!

 

There is no manager who isnt going to make mistakes however it is ridiculous to blame Dalglish for a 'demise'.

 

Im assuming by demise we are talking about not winning the league. Who would have thought it 1990 we would still be looking for our 19th league title 20 years later? Cant fucking blame Dalglish for that.

 

Souness obviously made massive mistakes and we went miles backwards under him but just looking at ourselves and not external factors (eg uniteds improvement etc) there have been have still been opportunities in the meantime to win the league that we have not taken.

 

It appears whenever we have been close massive errors have been made.

 

Under Roy Evans our inability to defend set pieces the year united beat us at anfield towards the end of the year. That season we could and probably should have won the league. If I remember rightly didnt we end up finshing 4th or something. I think coventry beat us at anfield scoring from a corner - Dion Dublin.

 

Then under houllier after finishing second he signed diao diouf and cheyrou and we went backwards.

 

You would probably have to say this summer the yanks have fucked us up aswell. After finishing second and the league winners losing their best player we were not backed in the market and you would have to say it is a massive missed opportunity.

 

My concern being surely chelsea are going to get better if they have stability with ancelotti. Man city are going to spend more and more and become more of a force and I cant see it being too long before united sign a world class forward to complement rooney and replace ronaldo in a round about way.

 

It will then be even harder wo win!

 

But its fucking out of order to blame a man who brought us our last league for our demise!! Thank fuck Dalglish cant see that accusation. Id hate the man to think some fans hold him responsible for us not winning the league since

[Vulmea]

The only thing that explains what went wrong/disappeared was the loss of our reserves grooming system - It dried up/removed a regular supply of affordable, steady players that before had always formed the heart of our teams and ALLOWED the managers to concentrate what money they DID spend on stars and forward players etc - After Kenny and partly BECAUSE of what he did - our managers tried to buy entire teams instead of forming them from players brought through the reserves and buying the best players to complete the team; It's clear therefore that THIS is where we went wrong. The other main factors behind our demise include the utter disaster that was the chairmanship of David Moores (which has been detailed in depth elsewhere and needs no elaboration from me). Finally, there's the arrogance that affected our club at all levels by 1990 - we just thought success would come naturally and that as we were the best, why bother taking steps to stay on top? Success would just CONTINUE coming wouldn't it? Well that was our club (and fans) idea back then and how wrong was that? I think we can safely say that events since 1990 have shown just HOW wrong we were in those disastrous assumptions.....................................

 

The reserves died because the first team squad kept being extended - those players then couldn't play in the stiffs the quality therefore went down - the first team squads were extended because the game became dominated by the rich clubs, more subs benefits only the bigger teams -players became assets - just another factor for success in football being more about money than anything else

[Antynwa]

Don't look to the past, look to the here and now.

[Dicko]

Don't look to the past, look to the here and now.

 

So it's Rafa's fault that Souness signed Paul Stewart!

Fucking thick Spanish cunt.

Sack him.

[George Costanza]

we've been badly run for 20 years now. there's a whole host of people culpable, some more than others but it should be a collective thing.