The Owld Fecker

I could not agree more marra. I'm a Sunderland supporter who has been voicing these opinions, on here, for the last few days. TLW was, always, about "pass and move", always about grooming purchased players to play that way, in the ressies and only then allowing (maybe) them to play for the first team. However, I can fully understand that there are a lot of people who post on here who cannot understand what we are talking about. If I was a Liverpool supporter aged under 55/60 years old I wouldn't! So can't blame them - only sympathise! Also, sorry to hear about your problems getting a S/T.

OOPs! Sorry, I'm going senile. I wanted to say that it was (even as a none Liverpool supporter) a privilege to see a Shankly/Paisley team play. Screwed up on the spelling and left it too long to change it! Sorry again!:wallbutt:

Serious question marra. Did you ever have the privilidge of seeing a Shankly/Paisley team play? If, because of age, you never had that opportunity then nobody can blame your lack of understanding! They were a joy to watch!

Perfectly put marra! If everyone knew the answer everyone would be a millionaire and everyone's team would win the Premier. Eh!!

Believe me, for my sins, I am! Attended my first game at Roker in 1963 (League Cup semi final against Aston Villa) - we lost 3-1! Sheesh!! I just look at my (second) club and don't like what I see. Everything I respected seems to have disappeared and you are reduced to the levels of otherts, trying to buy success. That, for me, is the responsibilility of KD. Sorry, marra, that is just the way I see it.

Maybe! The Liverpool problem is that ONLY 50% think/feel that way. Sky generation, rather than those who had the privilege of seeing the "real" Liverpool play? You were poetry in motion!

I would think that if you need a caretaker he would be the obvious choice. However, please do not forget that he was the man that destroyed the "Liverpool Way". (The part of your post I highlighted). I may not be a Liverpool supporter, but I have always had great respect for Liverpool and the boot room dynasty founded by Shankly, which continued under Paisley etc. UNTIL Dalglish! So (unless he has learned the errors of his ways) I would not see him as a "long term" bet. Just my take on things.

Maybe, as a Sunderland supporter, I should not comment on this. However, I would have thought that: 1) Any new manager must understand the "heartbeat" of the club. 2) Any new manager must understand the "Liverpool Way" that the supporters expect the game to be played. 3) That any new manager must understand that the Premier League is the "Holy Grail" and that everything else is secondary! Given that he understands (and can deliver) those points I would not have thought nationality was that important. However, Shankly was a believer/Liverpool patriot and I cannot help but wonder what he would have thought about Mourinho (great manager but a mercenary) being touted as manager of HIS club!

I think, marra, that every club has it's share of idiots and morons. Thankfully they form a very small percentage of the actual support. If someone goes anywhere looking for (or expecting) trouble then they will normally find it but if someone genuinely wants a few beers and good craic with opposing supporters then they will, normally, find that too. I wasn't at the Central Station, on the day in question, so cannot comment on the rights and wrongs but I have read enough accounts from people who were there and have to say that many things, claimed by the police, just don't "stack up" and that they have now changed their story on at least three occasions, contradicting themselves each time. However, the point of the petition is not to condone violence. It's aim is to try to get the club to reverse its' banning orders on fans who have been charged with NO offences. Imagine if it was you and Liverpool had suspended your season ticket, pending the outcome of police investigations, without compensation, for just being in the wrong place at the wrong time - would you not feel a sense of injustice? To those who have signed - many, many thanks!

Great post marra and one that highlights the details far more eloquently than I ever could.

I don't know if you guys have picked up on the story about an incident at Newcastle Central Station involving Northumbria Police and Sunderland supporters. This is an article from Private Eye which describes what happened. Flog On The Tyne Last month Knacker of Northumbria put out a news release to touch the heart of every animal lover. It showed a forlorn-looking police dog, Cleo, claiming she was one of four dogs "kicked, punched to the ground and stamped on" by rampaging Sunderland football thugs. According to the police statement, reported in the local press, fans on their way home from a pre-season friendly in Edinburgh against Hearts arrived at Newcastle station "intent on violence" and lashed out at both police and dogs. Although "shocked, battered and bruised," luckily none of the dogs was seriously injured, said the statement. But is Northumbria presiding over its own G20-style policing disaster? For the same lack of serious injury cannot be said of at least four Sunderland fans who were hospitalised or needed emergency treatment, three with severe head wounds apparently caused by being beaten with batons, and a fourth with a dog bite wound to his stomach. One of those with a head wound was also bitten. Accounts by fans contrast starkly to those of the police and suggest there were delays in getting medical treatment to those with head wounds. One supporter said that despite telling officers he had experience as a Territorial Army medic, he was prevented from giving assistance to one man. Phone video evidence shows the man lying in a pool of blood. Last week, following freedom of information requests, Northumbria was forced to admit the extent of the injuries to police and dogs. Er, none... except for two dogs, with "tenderness on their bodies" which had not required a trip to the vet. And did the severe injuries to the fans trigger an investigation by the Independent Police Compliants Commission? It seems not. The police had told the IPCC that they had intelligence that a core of Sunderland soccer thugs on the train was behind a pre-arranged fight with Newcastle supporters, and that officers were there to escort the fans to the Metro and keep the factions apart. The police also published two clips of video evidence, one showing fans shouting and jeering at the cordon of police surrounding them; and a second showing some men entering a subway, one of whom appears to be carrying a stick. But a week after the incident, commissioner for the North and East, Gary Garland, announced that after assessing video footage from CCTV at the station, the underground and from police hand-held cameras, it was "conclusive" that officers "were subjected to a high level of violence." Their use of force was "justifiable" and the IPCC did not need to play any role in investigating the affair, he said. But in reaching this decision, the Football Supporters Federation (no friend of thugs who use the sport as an excuse for violence), which has taken up the case, say that the IPCC had not considered any evidence from or interviewed any of the fans at the station. Their evidence and clips of video footage are now being collated by the FSF, which has taken the unusual step of lodging formal complaints against the IPCC and calling on Mr Garland to resign for prejudging the case ahead of a proper investigation, which Northumbria police is now conducting into... itself. As the FSF points out, this doesn't inspire confidence. Northumbria is also carrying out a criminal investigation into the trouble. Statements from a number of fans suggest that, contrary to police assertions that they were heading to Newcastle bent on trouble, the fans had in fact waited an extra half-hour for a non-scheduled football special train that was supposed to take them directly to Sunderland. For some unknown reason, it terminated in Newcastle. They point out that any fans planning trouble would have caught an earlier train that was scheduled to stop in Newcastle. They further claim that they were kept waiting for about 20 minutes and then corralled off the train, and that police were pushing fans forward on to police at the front who were blocking their exit. This caused a crush and some fans started to protest and swear at the police. One teacher described how a teenage Sunderland fan was pushed on to the police cordon and a dog bit him on the stomach. He said chaos ensued as fans tried to grab the teenager back. It was suggested that if any of the dogs were hit or kicked, it was in an attempt to get them off supporters. Dr Malcolm Clarke, chair of the FSF, said the case raised a number of issues that the IPCC or an independent force should investigate. The FSF has requested that all video footage be made available. Knacker, meanwhile, has made 31 arrests on suspicion of causing violent disorder, with all fans bailed. Other than one man charged with being drunk and disorderly, no other charge has so far been brought. The IPCC told the Eye it was happy with its decision based on the evidence it had available to it at the time. Watch this space... Anyway, after saying that they would not get involved until the police had finished their investigations the club have now suspended the season tickets of (I think) 42 supporters who have not been charged with ANY offences. Indeed, a number of them have outstanding lawsuits against Northumbria Police for the violence inflicted on them. Now the F.S.F. have placed a petition on line which calls for the reinstatement of their season tickets and I would urge everyone to sign it. Nobody is condoning any act of violence but it is a basic tenet of British justice that everybody is innocent until proven guilty, not guilty until proven innocent! The Football Supporters' Federation - Sunderland Fans' Ban: Appeal to Niall Quinn

Try me. I'm not claiming to be a mastermind on your club. Only someone who has greatly respected it over the years and is sad at its' current predicament. However, It would seem that I do know more about it than the "Sky Generation", of which you would appear to be a member.

Tuch,tuch kiddo! I added 100 punches to his face! ;)

I picked up on that and asked you why? You have chosen not to respond. I wonder why?

Ok. I will take that request as I see it. Liverpool is spelt with a capital letter. What would you like to know next? Information about Smith, Case, Callaghan? Grow up!

If it's anything like Roy Keane's beard be very afraid! At Sunderland he only allowed it to grow when he was under pressure that he found it hard to cope with. The same trait seems to have surfaced (pun intended) at Ipswich!

Ok m8 - seems to be your style. I ain't dissin no one. I has respect for yuur club. More than u!

NO wind up marra. I refrained from posting, after our game, because I thought it might be seen that way. However, If I understand more about your history than you do then please do not be shy - just say so! ;)

Jeez! Am I to believe that a Sunderland supporter knows more about Liverpool title winning teams (and their attributes) than Liverpool supporters? Sadly, it would seem so. :(

Ok marra. Please tell me why I am wrong. I have watched, respected and feared Liverpool teams for close on 50 years, so reckon I am entitled to an opinion. If your tenure is not greater than 15/25 years (which I think is probably about right) do not bother replying - coz you know/understand nothing!

Because I enjoy banter and Liverpool were always my "second team". I assume you are still at school - I think that most older supporters will understand.

I'm sorry but I will stand by my (outsiders) assessment. Who signed the players? Who went for short term glory? Who destroyed the Liverpool "culture"? I still say (sadly) Dalglish. Before his tenure (as an outsider) one of the reasons I had so much respect for your club was that it seemed to be unique. You seemed to say to every player (Shanks et all) Join us and we will teach you how to play the game properly - and how to win! Paisley seemed to carry on with the same ideal, as did Moran & Fagan. Then the rules changed (Dalglish). For me he is the man responsible for your "demise" - Nobody else! Souness? Great player (but a lousy manager) just caused the problems to be compounded by attempting to change too much, too soon.

I know everything is relative and that is why I am asking the question. When I was a lad Liverpool seemed to win (or be capable of winning) everything whilst my club, Sunderland, never had a "cat in hell's chance". My, personal, candidate would be Dalglish - Controversial, maybe, so please let me explain. Prior to his appointment players that were signed were, normally, consigned to your reserves, to learn to play the "Liverpool way". That then stopped and players seemed to go straight into your first team and (I think) that, whereas his tenure started in glory he destroyed the culture that had been built up over decades. Fear of your name IMHO, initially, allowed that to happen but once teams realised that Liverpool were not the "team of old" it then became a downhill slide which you have been attempting to correct ever since. I know Souness is, normally, seen as the "Demon Destroyer" but what do YOU think?

That is your perogative marra. Can I ask why?

I take the points made about Rafa having recruited players who have captained teams. However, just being a captain is not always a good yardstick. SG, for me is a great captain as someone who never hides, inspires by example as well as expecting the same passion in others and is not scared to let them know when they fall short and I see JC in a similar light as I did Alonso when he was with you. A team, though IMHO needs a fair sprinkling of similar characters to be strong enough to win the Premier and I just don't think that you have enough of them. Think back to your title winning teams of the past and when you compare the players you will see what I mean. We had Whitehead as captain for a number of seasons and he never hid but was not passionate and was not the type to get at others. Now we have Cana who is more of a Stevie G character as well as a number of others with similar qualities and the difference is remarkable! Also, in using Arsenal as a comparison I was not comparing the managers but highlighting the fact that they have never managed to replace the likes of Viera, Adams etc.with similar characters, so IMHO cannot be considerd serious title contenders. Maybe, I should have should of emphasised more about the characteristics I was thinking of - not just used the word "leader", which can be interpreted as captain.