Unions and all that

[Redexile]

The law protects employees enough in my opinion. Unions do a lot of good work for people who need them most but on the whole they are obstructive.

 

What is really scary here is that I think you honestly believe that.

[Guido]

If i worked for a big faceless organisation then i'd join one.

Currently at a small organisation (40 employees) who are v cool so union not needed.

 

For individual cases, unions have proven farcically inept in my past experience.

Good for collective action though.

 

Bout it.

[RedinSweden]

I see your point but my issue is exactly in the point you are making...Why would I argue for Maternity Leave when I will never need it or Parental leave for the same reason..I am not responsible for the cleaners, catering staf etc..

 

I treat them with respect and pass the time of day with them as I do the managers and my peers but I am not and have no wish to be involved in their issues be it work or personal.. I have enough on my plate.. thats not selfish its realistic..

 

If the best a union can do for me is ensure that I go without pay then I see no value in it anyway.. I could get no pay for myself.. In the event that my employer didnt recognise my legal rights as a parent or individual I would take action against them myself. I dont have the kind of personality to allow people to bully me or walk all over me, nor would I let a grave injustice against me, be it employment or otherwise, slide.

 

Again thats not selfish it being reliant upon myself for my own well being..As I said before I would not expect others to strike for me and whilst I might be sympathetic to someones circumstances, I might even offer advise or help off my own back if I felt so inclined to do so but it means nothing if my hearts not it.

 

But the thing is, the position you are in as an employee, is there on the back of work by trade unions. Basic stuff that we take for granted is there because of the work of the early trade unions. It's alright to say "I'll look after myself", but you want to make sure that your kids have the same rights as you when they are working don't you? You talk of legal rights, how do you think they came about? By employers being kind? By the government looking after the little men? Or by pressure from workers.

 

I assume you will be enjoying some paid leave this summer. I'd like to have seen you try and negotiate that for yourself in 1927 as a working mother.

[Redexile]

But the thing is, the position you are in as an employee, is there on the back of work by trade unions. Basic stuff that we take for granted is there because of the work of the early trade unions. It's alright to say "I'll look after myself", but you want to make sure that your kids have the same rights as you when they are working don't you? You talk of legal rights, how do you think they came about? By employers being kind? By the government looking after the little men? Or by pressure from workers.

 

I assume you will be enjoying some paid leave this summer. I'd like to have seen you try and negotiate that for yourself in 1927 as a working mother.

 

Im quite keen on resurrecting The Luddites North West Branch myself.But seriously, you make some good points. Many companys' these days are using a divide and rule strategy to their advantage.

[stringvest]

The principle is fine but the fact is that most of the high profile unions are fronted by knuckle dragging incoherent idiots with militant tendencies - used usually to further their own appetite for profile and a decadent lifestyle (see Derek Hatton).

 

I mean, is there a dumber and more immediately obnoxious individual fronting any large organisation than Bob Crow? Imagine having that representing you? What does that say about those unfortunate individuals working in the same union? I'd rather drink Mugabe's bathwater than be represented by a prick like that.

[Ian Sea]

I'm in the PCS, have been for about 4 years now. For me it's a sort of security blanket, there in case anything happens.

[RedinSweden]

The principle is fine but the fact is that most of the high profile unions are fronted by knuckle dragging incoherent idiots with militant tendencies - used usually to further their own appetite for profile and a decadent lifestyle (see Derek Hatton).

 

I mean, is there a dumber and more immediately obnoxious individual fronting any large organisation than Bob Crow? Imagine having that representing you? What does that say about those unfortunate individuals working in the same union? I'd rather drink Mugabe's bathwater than be represented by a prick like that.

 

That is very true, but that isn't the case in a hell of a lot of unions. It shouldn't accepted either.

[The Bugged Out]

I am PCS union rep.

[Brod]

Been in the PCS for 11 years now. My dad was one of the loud mouthed Scousers on the tely that was mentioned earlier during the strikes at Fords and my granddad was high up in the AEU so its something I've been brought up around.

 

Problem is now that everyone's so heavily in debt with mortgages and easily accesable credit cards/loans that people can't often afford to strike.

 

It's what the government always wanted to be able to manipulate the people.

[Section_31]

Been in the PCS for 11 years now. My dad was one of the loud mouthed Scousers on the tely that was mentioned earlier during the strikes at Fords and my granddad was high up in the AEU so its something I've been brought up around.

 

Problem is now that everyone's so heavily in debt with mortgages and easily accesable credit cards/loans that people can't often afford to strike.

 

It's what the government always wanted to be able to manipulate the people.

 

That's fucking spot on that, spot on and I've been saying it for years.

 

The amount of personal debt people find themselves in has been encouraged and permitted at the highest levels.

 

Working to support your family and save up for nice things used to be the driving force in people's working lives, now the reason people work is to prevent from sinking as they try and tread water on credit card bills and what-not - it's the difference between wanting to get to the top of a hill and being willing to work for it, or actually sinking in a swamp with your entire life at stake and needing to keep pulling yourself up because you've got no choice.

 

I always remember a good quote from a Mafia film/show once where one of them says something like: "You might not be able to buy him off because he's too honest, but once he's in debt to you he'll do anything out of a strange mix of desperation and guilt."

[AVEEZ]

But the thing is, the position you are in as an employee, is there on the back of work by trade unions. Basic stuff that we take for granted is there because of the work of the early trade unions. It's alright to say "I'll look after myself", but you want to make sure that your kids have the same rights as you when they are working don't you? You talk of legal rights, how do you think they came about? By employers being kind? By the government looking after the little men? Or by pressure from workers.

 

I assume you will be enjoying some paid leave this summer. I'd like to have seen you try and negotiate that for yourself in 1927 as a working mother.

 

Its a good argument but I could argue that this would infact have been a natural progression, I might well have expected, following the litigation culture which has beseeched our country over the last decade or so.

 

I would agree that in the 1920's 30's right upto the 80's that Unions did alot of hard work for working class people to get them the same rights the upper classes were already perhaps enjoying. But whether or not the are still needed to the same degree in this day and age is I think debatable for all the reasons I have outlined previously.

 

Nostalgia for organisations or specific eras where great leaps were made either in politics or civil rights is understandable and a great respect is also understandably levied on the people / organisations who have made these great steps, particularly for those who have worked for civil liberties, employment rights or any other such good deed which impacts on a large majority of a previously under privileged society.

 

However, just because they have been the driving force historically in major changes of any policy does not mean that they can have the same impact once times have moved on and perhaps arguably by their own success they have made themselves somewhat redundant.

 

I'm not saying we dont need Trade Unions or that they dont have a place in our country today, nor am I ungrateful for the position I now find myself in be it down to them or inspite of them. What I am saying is that I dont need them now - just like I no longer need my parents to be responsible for my financial security or personal happiness. This is not to say I never needed them just that thanks to them and others around them I am capable of doing most things myself.

[AVEEZ]

That's fucking spot on that, spot on and I've been saying it for years.

 

The amount of personal debt people find themselves in has been encouraged and permitted at the highest levels.

 

Working to support your family and save up for nice things used to be the driving force in people's working lives, now the reason people work is to prevent from sinking as they try and tread water on credit card bills and what-not - it's the difference between wanting to get to the top of a hill and being willing to work for it, or actually sinking in a swamp with your entire life at stake and needing to keep pulling yourself up because you've got no choice.

 

I always remember a good quote from a Mafia film/show once where one of them says something like: "You might not be able to buy him off because he's too honest, but once he's in debt to you he'll do anything out of a strange mix of desperation and guilt."

 

Been in the PCS for 11 years now. My dad was one of the loud mouthed Scousers on the tely that was mentioned earlier during the strikes at Fords and my granddad was high up in the AEU so its something I've been brought up around.

 

Problem is now that everyone's so heavily in debt with mortgages and easily accesable credit cards/loans that people can't often afford to strike.

 

It's what the government always wanted to be able to manipulate the people.

 

 

If I could address both these comments with one comment..People complain when the government interven on or personal lives where theire intervention is not required or appreciated. ie. smacking kids and so on but when things go wrong and we have not be protected from ourselves,due to our greed or lack of common sense we throw it in their faces. High levels of debt are sometimes unavoidable and unexpected but in the majority of cases the kind of debt you are refering to is self inflicted by people wanting more than they can afford this is not the governments fault. Nor is it particularly relevent to this thread. If people can no longer afford to strike then tough tits they should have saved some of the money the unions fought for them to get!

[Anny Road]

Unions I feel are on the whole a good thing when it comes to protecting workers rights, health and safety.

I do get pissed of with public sector workers throwing there dummy out of the pram and demanding x%. If you dont like it leave and go work in the private sector where you pay will be related to your performance.

How is it that you cannot take you kid out of school for a day because the curriculum is so tight yet if the teachers want a pay rise they strike.

[RedinSweden]

Its a good argument but I could argue that this would infact have been a natural progression, I might well have expected, following the litigation culture which has beseeched our country over the last decade or so.

 

I would agree that in the 1920's 30's right upto the 80's that Unions did alot of hard work for working class people to get them the same rights the upper classes were already perhaps enjoying. But whether or not the are still needed to the same degree in this day and age is I think debatable for all the reasons I have outlined previously.

 

Nostalgia for organisations or specific eras where great leaps were made either in politics or civil rights is understandable and a great respect is also understandably levied on the people / organisations who have made these great steps, particularly for those who have worked for civil liberties, employment rights or any other such good deed which impacts on a large majority of a previously under privileged society.

 

However, just because they have been the driving force historically in major changes of any policy does not mean that they can have the same impact once times have moved on and perhaps arguably by their own success they have made themselves somewhat redundant.

 

I'm not saying we dont need Trade Unions or that they dont have a place in our country today, nor am I ungrateful for the position I now find myself in be it down to them or inspite of them. What I am saying is that I dont need them now - just like I no longer need my parents to be responsible for my financial security or personal happiness. This is not to say I never needed them just that thanks to them and others around them I am capable of doing most things myself.

 

But by saying "I can look after myself now" and the fact that the cleaners can look after themselves etc undermines the whole thing. The idea of a union is that all the workers present a united front. They are in no way redundant. They are there to make sure things stay as they are at the very least. Look at the US, where most unions are incredibly weak. They have 2 weeks paid holiday (although the amount guaranteed by law is a whopping zero).

[RedinSweden]

That's fucking spot on that, spot on and I've been saying it for years.

 

The amount of personal debt people find themselves in has been encouraged and permitted at the highest levels.

 

Working to support your family and save up for nice things used to be the driving force in people's working lives, now the reason people work is to prevent from sinking as they try and tread water on credit card bills and what-not - it's the difference between wanting to get to the top of a hill and being willing to work for it, or actually sinking in a swamp with your entire life at stake and needing to keep pulling yourself up because you've got no choice.

 

I always remember a good quote from a Mafia film/show once where one of them says something like: "You might not be able to buy him off because he's too honest, but once he's in debt to you he'll do anything out of a strange mix of desperation and guilt."

 

Exactly. You used to be able to support a family on one income. A bloke would be in a normal job and be able to afford a mortgage (they used to be three times the salary as a rule of thumb). Say the average bloke now gets 25,000 (which is probably being generous to say the least), living in an average town, three kids and a wife at home. Is he going to get a 3 bedroom house for 75,000? Is he fuck.

[RJ Fan club]

Unions I feel are on the whole a good thing when it comes to protecting workers rights, health and safety.

I do get pissed of with public sector workers throwing there dummy out of the pram and demanding x%. If you dont like it leave and go work in the private sector where you pay will be related to your performance.

How is it that you cannot take you kid out of school for a day because the curriculum is so tight yet if the teachers want a pay rise they strike.

 

You really need to look at the wider picture instead of the 'I'm a tax payer I don't like it, I'll stamp my feet in a Daily Mail type of way'. Truth is if you don't invest in decent public services you won't get decent teachers, nurses etc

 

How would you like your kids having a worse eduction or getting treated by someone who is wholly incompetent because the decent staff chose to go to the private sector? because thats where it is being driven. Take my profession, there is serious brain drain taking place to the private sector and abroad, if it continues it will infact cost more to retrain, retention packages and temporary for staff in the meanwhile.

 

I have had to take below inflation payrises for years (effectivily a pay cut). I'd be quite happy to take inflationary rises each year, if I did counting back about 25 years and with compound rises I would be on a whole lot more now.

 

I could go and work in the Private Sector, easlily. I would do less work and get paid more too. I have put literally hundred of hours overtime in with no pay, just through sheer commitment to my job and serving the public. However I choose not to leave because I choose to serve the public and I'm committed to providing the best service to the public I can.

 

As the lastest pay demand is for about 5%, inflation is forecast at what 4.1% this year. I expect the 5% is a bargaining and we would take less. I don't think thats unreasonable to expect an inflationary rise, why should I take a pay cut?

[Anny Road]

You really need to look at the wider picture instead of the 'I'm a tax payer I don't like it, I'll stamp my feet in a Daily Mail type of way'. Truth is if you don't invest in decent public services you won't get decent teachers, nurses etc

 

How would you like your kids having a worse eduction or getting treated by someone who is wholly incompetent because the decent staff chose to go to the private sector? because thats where it is being driven. Take my profession, there is serious brain drain taking place to the private sector and abroad, if it continues it will infact cost more to retrain, retention packages and temporary for staff in the meanwhile.

 

I have had to take below inflation payrises for years (effectivily a pay cut). I'd be quite happy to take inflationary rises each year, if I did counting back about 25 years and with compound rises I would be on a whole lot more now.

 

I could go and work in the Private Sector, easlily. I would do less work and get paid more too. I have put literally hundred of hours overtime in with no pay, just through sheer commitment to my job and serving the public. However I choose not to leave because I choose to serve the public and I'm committed to providing the best service to the public I can.

 

As the lastest pay demand is for about 5%, inflation is forecast at what 4.1% this year. I expect the 5% is a bargaining and we would take less. I don't think thats unreasonable to expect an inflationary rise, why should I take a pay cut?

In my previous life as an employee I went 5 years without a pay rise. As a self employed person now if I worked it out I am probably on less than the minimum wage.

Whilst I agree with you that people should be payed a fair wage for the job they do I dont think now is the time for the unions to start 'demanding' pay rises. We are all suffering at the minute and it is going to get worse.

 

If public service is a motivation for you to work in the sector you do that is admirable. If finacially it is not possible for you to do this then you have the option of getting another job.

Rather than increasing the overall spend local authorites should be run in such a way that money is not wasted on stupid things like smoking enforcment officers and overseas conferences and 35k a year salaries for councillors.

[RJ Fan club]

In my previous life as an employee I went 5 years without a pay rise. As a self employed person now if I worked it out I am probably on less than the minimum wage.

Whilst I agree with you that people should be payed a fair wage for the job they do I dont think now is the time for the unions to start 'demanding' pay rises. We are all suffering at the minute and it is going to get worse.

 

If public service is a motivation for you to work in the sector you do that is admirable. If finacially it is not possible for you to do this then you have the option of getting another job.

Rather than increasing the overall spend local authorites should be run in such a way that money is not wasted on stupid things like smoking enforcment officers and overseas conferences and 35k a year salaries for councillors.

 

Very lazy arguement, throw in a few made up jobs, salaries, imply they spend a fortune to back up your invalid comments.

 

£35K on Cllrs, they wish. Basic is about 12K, at my Council on 2 Cllrs earned over £30k last year, The Leader and Deputy leader of the Council who are pretty much full time employees.

 

Smoking Enforcement Officers don't even exist in my council, the Environment Health team have been lumbered with yet another task, are pushed closer to the door and get no further pay for it.

 

As for foriegn junkets, well that really is starting to become a thing of the past in Local Government at least I feel I can comment. There is always going to be a legitimate need for some form of training and experiencing and seeing new ideas. Why not go and look at good ideas else where and foster good relation to implement a new way of working, it may even save money in the long term.

 

I and my department have managed year on year efficiency cuts of over 3% per year for the last 5 or so years. There is literally nothing left to trim. Seriously, I can't even claim my most basic of expenses, do not have adequate site equipment, regularly use my own digital camera and laptop, can't claim overtime, I don't even have the most basic of tools to complete my job effectivily.

 

No one denies there are and have been a lot of inefficiencies within the Public Sector, but what it got to do with my pay claim I haven't the faintest idea, it not like i see the money or get perk from the inefficencies

 

Your first post says that we should leave to go into the private sector where you pay will be related to your performance; presuming you mean I would get better pay settlements). Then you imply we should all tighten our belts? which one is it too be?

 

I can't tighten a belt if its losing me money, I can be more careful with what I've got, but I won't accept I should take a paycut in a industry which is criminally under paid and under valued.

Edited June 26, 2008 by RJ Fan club
crap spellinz

[Redexile]

But by saying "I can look after myself now" and the fact that the cleaners can look after themselves etc undermines the whole thing. The idea of a union is that all the workers present a united front. They are in no way redundant. They are there to make sure things stay as they are at the very least. Look at the US, where most unions are incredibly weak. They have 2 weeks paid holiday (although the amount guaranteed by law is a whopping zero).

 

 

 

Amen to that. BTW I also thought I didn't need a union as I was happy in my job and there are no unions in this company. Well guess what people 5 months into my employment I decided to resign to go into another business and that's when I was shafted. I've since been to lawyers to be told that basically with under 1 years employment at this company I don't really have any rights.Now if you've been in your company for a couple of years and don't plan to move fine, but remember the moment you move elsewhere you pretty much have next to no protection for 12 months....and it's all legal.

[liverbobs]

TU Member, shop steward and branch secretary!

[Anny Road]

Very lazy arguement, throw in a few made up jobs, salaries, imply they spend a fortune to back up your invalid comments.

 

£35K on Cllrs, they wish. Basic is about 12K, at my Council on 2 Cllrs earned over £30k last year, The Leader and Deputy leader of the Council who are pretty much full time employees.

 

Smoking Enforcement Officers don't even exist in my council, the Environment Health team have been lumbered with yet another task, are pushed closer to the door and get no further pay for it.

 

As for foriegn junkets, well that really is starting to become a thing of the past in Local Government at least I feel I can comment. There is always going to be a legitimate need for some form of training and experiencing and seeing new ideas. Why not go and look at good ideas else where and foster good relation to implement a new way of working, it may even save money in the long term.

 

I and my department have managed year on year efficiency cuts of over 3% per year for the last 5 or so years. There is literally nothing left to trim. Seriously, I can't even claim my most basic of expenses, do not have adequate site equipment, regularly use my own digital camera and laptop, can't claim overtime, I don't even have the most basic of tools to complete my job effectivily.

 

No one denies there are and have been a lot of inefficiencies within the Public Sector, but what it got to do with my pay claim I haven't the faintest idea, it not like i see the money or get perk from the inefficencies

 

Your first post says that we should leave to go into the private sector where you pay will be related to your performance; presuming you mean I would get better pay settlements). Then you imply we should all tighten our belts? which one is it too be?

 

I can't tighten a belt if its losing me money, I can be more careful with what I've got, but I won't accept I should take a paycut in a industry which is criminally under paid and under valued.

I am not arguing with you about what goes on a your place. I can only relay to you my knowledge of where I live.

I can give you numerous examples of the waste of tons of money which would be better spent on staff pay.

I supply nursing homes, schools, colleges and council offices. I see how they spend money and I can tell you if a business was run as such in the private sector they would be bust in a year.

There is money in council coffers to pay staff but the whole system is unmanageable.

[RJ Fan club]

I am not arguing with you about what goes on a your place. I can only relate why Knowledge of where I live.

I can give you numerous examples of the waste of tons of money which would be better spent on staff pay.

I supply nursing homes, schools, colleges and council offices. I see how they spend money and I can tell you if a business was run as such in the private sector they would be bust in a year.

There is money in council coffers to pay staff but the whole system is unmanageable.

 

I would never deny there is wastage, but largely this has decreased and I think it has nothing to do with my pay claim. I think to give false or inflated examples to justify a point which does not even relate to public sector pay is wrong, ill formed and ill judged.

 

I do however object to being labelled as "throwing there dummy out of the pram". All I'm asking is that we recieve a decent inflationary pay settlement, that acknowledges the hard work and difficult conditions I undertake.

[Anny Road]

I would never deny there is wastage, but largely this has decreased and I think it has nothing to do with my pay claim. I think to give false or inflated examples to justify a point which does not even relate to public sector pay is wrong, ill formed and ill judged.

 

I do however object to being labelled as "throwing there dummy out of the pram". All I'm asking is that we recieve a decent inflationary pay settlement, that acknowledges the hard work and difficult conditions I undertake.

 

And if you dont get one you will strike. Right?

[AVEEZ]

But by saying "I can look after myself now" and the fact that the cleaners can look after themselves etc undermines the whole thing. The idea of a union is that all the workers present a united front. They are in no way redundant. They are there to make sure things stay as they are at the very least. Look at the US, where most unions are incredibly weak. They have 2 weeks paid holiday (although the amount guaranteed by law is a whopping zero).

 

 

But and here is the crux of it - its my choice - and in a democracy freedom to choose is key. I also undermind the conservative party by not joining them or voting for them.. the point of the thing is if they want me then they will have to offer me something I cant do for myself and I jsut dont feel that way about Unions (or the conservatives for that matter).

 

I didnt say they were redundant on the contrary I acknowledged that they have a part to play for those that rely on their sevices and advise - I'll come back to it again and again - I choose not to and that at the end of the day is my right.

 

The idea behind any group of people coming together with a shared ideal, be it political or religious or anything else trying to make a difference, is that the more followers / supporters they have the more influence they will yield. But as time progress and people lose interest or the needs (as they preceive them) change it is the job of the said group / party / union to persuade them through their ideals and promises that they can still be of use and it would still be benefitial to support them.

 

If we as employees see our own powers wain and things start to head the way you say they have in the US then its likely people (possibly even me) will turn back to them but this is the way of a democracy where voters and supporters are difficult ot come by and more difficult to retain.

[RJ Fan club]

And if you dont get one you will strike. Right?

 

If necessary and it can't be resolved by the initial negotiations. I think five years of pay cuts is enough, don't you?

 

edited to add: I think striking should be the last resort and a step I never wish to have to take. Sometimes it is necessary.