Thiago Alcantara

[Joey8FrogsLegs]

6 hours ago, skaro said:

 

I'll admit I absolutely don't understand.

 

But the understanding our stand-in CBs from midfield do have of our system hasn't seemed to have helped our results... 

 

Is that perhaps because they should be playing in midfield, and we simply now don't have a fit CB at the club who does understand our system?

 

How long does it take a CB to learn our system?  Or is it that we've bought 2 CBs, hurriedly, who perhaps aren't good enough for our system?

 

With Thiago too, there's seems to be lots of talk of "learning" and "fitting in".

 

Lots of training wheels at play, for a defending League champion.

 

 

Our stand-in CBs have worked quite well in defence. Our defensive line still works well, and for long spells we’ve been able to play our way out of defence fairly well. The main problem with putting Henderson and Fabinho there is we’ve lost intensity in midfield, and also they’re not good enough in the air. Especially on set pieces we’ve been useless of late.

 

How long it takes depends on the player I guess. If you look at Wan Bissaka at United he’ll probably never work out his positioning and be able to operate as part of a unit. Brilliant defender individually, but costing them points on a regular basis because he isn’t aware of the movements of his team mates and opponents. 
 

This has been one of Klopps strengths, making the players operate as a unit with each player understanding the way we play and where they are expected to move when we defend and when we attack. Takes time fornnew players to adapt to this, and the less experienced they are, or if they lack the natural understanding, it will take longer. With Van Dijk it took no time at all, but he’s not a regular player.

 

 

 

 

[joe_fishfish]

14 hours ago, TheHowieLama said:

There is no question teams have approached us differently though.

They always did that. Teams used to do that to us when were shit as well. They've always done it

[Bobby Hundreds]

Put Henderson and Fabinho in midfield their role to sit deeper and protect the defence, free up Thiago to do his thing have the forwards ready for the counter and the break. The team looks fucked its energy levels are low we need to build from the back, pep for all this shit he gets has been incredibly practical by changing how city play to adapt to all this.  I just find it weird how we are still witnessing the same failures but trying them again. Bringing on origi instead of Bobby or shaq or Ox isnt going to change our situation, having Jones instead of Gini isn't going to change things we need to look at our weakness now the biggest one is energy levels the entire football world at the minute is hit by it. Playing the same way but changing the cogs for worse versions isn't somehow going to improve the mechanics of it all. It doesn't mean we give up on the way we play forever its just adapting to a new situation. Our best players at least should be in their best positions.

 

 

We are wasting more energy chasing back after being hit on a break than we are going forward. We plod forward at a pedestrian pace, pass it sideways and backwards until we lose the ball and hit panic stations again. Its a season to sit deeper the last thing we need is too make the pitch smaller against teams who really want to close the spaces. Teams will come forward if the ball is being played more in the middle they don't just sit and watch. Give Mane and Salah a stretch of grass to look at and run into, give Thiago spaces to find. This style of everyone crammed over the halfway line looking completely stumped at the amount of bodies is mind numbingly tedious at this point. Plus our centrebacks  need those extra bodies not too far away to help out. Weakening our midfield to form a weak defence, let's just accept the defence is weak due to circumstances but strengthen our midfield because we can. For fuck sake give Gini a break.

 

As for Kabak and Davies if they're not good enough then what was the point. They need time to adapt to our style? our style is a mess at the minute we need to perfect the basics and if they can't do the basics whilst surrounded by top players then again what was the point, if we are going to continue to expose the centrebacks then fair enough they can't play its unfair but it feels like we just dipped into the bargain bucket because we are skint but something looks better than nothing.

 

We've been dealt the shittiest hand but we are not dealing with it well. Fabinho or Henderson who usually protect our fullbacks are gone and now our fullbacks look exposed and shite, we're relying on Thiago to cover Trent.. Thiago isn't that player and he will get a red card before long. We've weakened our entire back line by being conservative with player selection in the process weve weakened our midfield.

 

I'm mumbling on a football forum, frustration at the football, frustration at being locked down. Fuck knows what the real solution is but it's just doing my head in watching the same performance we look absolutely terrified to try something different. I love Klopp if we finished 15th id be fuming but still 100 percent behind Klopp but sometimes I think his faith is too strong be it in individuals, the training that week, the system. Maybe its those things that make him what he is, I'll take the rough patches with the smooth, this is the first real rough patch though so we have yet too see how he deals with it and brings back the smooth. I have trust in Klopp even if I see the rest of the season with Fabinho and Henderson as centrebacks even though I'll be really pissed off and repeat the same shit everyday. He's the only person I want to see manage this club but I'm still a believer that nobody is above criticism and I think he's having a bit of a mare this last month or so and the signs of all this happening have really been there longer if you look back. We need a bit of reform and refresh, we are out the title race we don't have the pressure of every game being a must win its the perfect time to get our shit together. Clean the slate and earn it all again.

[Brownie]

4 hours ago, Joey8FrogsLegs said:

Our stand-in CBs have worked quite well in defence. Our defensive line still works well, and for long spells we’ve been able to play our way out of defence fairly well. The main problem with putting Henderson and Fabinho there is we’ve lost intensity in midfield, and also they’re not good enough in the air. Especially on set pieces we’ve been useless of late.

 

How long it takes depends on the player I guess. If you look at Wan Bissaka at United he’ll probably never work out his positioning and be able to operate as part of a unit. Brilliant defender individually, but costing them points on a regular basis because he isn’t aware of the movements of his team mates and opponents. 
 

This has been one of Klopps strengths, making the players operate as a unit with each player understanding the way we play and where they are expected to move when we defend and when we attack. Takes time fornnew players to adapt to this, and the less experienced they are, or if they lack the natural understanding, it will take longer. With Van Dijk it took no time at all, but he’s not a regular player.

 

 

 

 

The stand in’s have done well in general but as time has gone by they have started to show more and more that they’re not centre halves.

 

I mean just look at Sunday. For the first goal after Sterling waltzes past TAA (shite from Trent), Fabinho doesn’t really react as he’s worried about a possible pass to his right if he commits. Hendo is the same. He should be charging across to cover, not holding the space.

 

A proper centre half doesn’t have that hesitation, he goes and deals with the present danger.

 

And then for the 2nd goal, after Alisson passes it straight to Foden, he still has to beat Hendo which he does pretty easily. Hendo is scared of touching him because of the threat of a pen but he gets past him too easily.

 

I’m not blaming him as he’s not a centre half. A proper centre half doesn’t allow those two things to happen though, for me.

[Joey8FrogsLegs]

1 hour ago, Brownie said:

The stand in’s have done well in general but as time has gone by they have started to show more and more that they’re not centre halves.

 

I mean just look at Sunday. For the first goal after Sterling waltzes past TAA (shite from Trent), Fabinho doesn’t really react as he’s worried about a possible pass to his right if he commits. Hendo is the same. He should be charging across to cover, not holding the space.

 

A proper centre half doesn’t have that hesitation, he goes and deals with the present danger.

 

And then for the 2nd goal, after Alisson passes it straight to Foden, he still has to beat Hendo which he does pretty easily. Hendo is scared of touching him because of the threat of a pen but he gets past him too easily.

 

I’m not blaming him as he’s not a centre half. A proper centre half doesn’t allow those two things to happen though, for me.

Agree with all of this. Still I think it would’ve been a worse option to throw in one of the new CBs, especially against this opponent I reckon Henderson and Fabinho was not a bad choice.

 

It’s gonna be very interesting to see how this develops over the next few games. Would expect Kabak to be in first. How will he adapt, and of course does he look the required quality?

 

Either way I dont expect it to be perfect. We made the decision in the 2020 windows of not strengthening the squad at CB, which has been discussed here over the last 18 months at least and a big mistake imo, and we now have to live with that.

[aws]

Hendo and Fab was the right choice for the City game but hopefully that will be the last time we need to play them both of them in defence at the same time. 

[Brownie]

5 minutes ago, Joey8FrogsLegs said:

Agree with all of this. Still I think it would’ve been a worse option to throw in one of the new CBs, especially against this opponent I reckon Henderson and Fabinho was not a bad choice.

 

It’s gonna be very interesting to see how this develops over the next few games. Would expect Kabak to be in first. How will he adapt, and of course does he look the required quality?

 

Either way I dont expect it to be perfect. We made the decision in the 2020 windows of not strengthening the squad at CB, which has been discussed here over the last 18 months at least and a big mistake imo, and we now have to live with that.

I said before the game that i’d have started Kabak alongside one of Fabinho or Hendo to allow the other to move into midfield.

 

We have no idea what Kabak is like, the only way to find out is to pick him and give him games to make a case for a permanent signing. He’s basically in a probation period isn’t he?

 

I’d expect he’ll play next week.

[Bobby Hundreds]

I've no complaints about the selection versus City it made little sense for that to be the game to be bold. The title is done now its gone. We should focus on fixing our team rather than over worry about the next 3 points.

[s(k)aturation]

 

If 1-4 was as a result of the right defence selections, I shudder to think what the score would have been otherwise.

 

I know, I know, Ali... 

 

[Joey8FrogsLegs]

1 minute ago, Brownie said:

I said before the game that i’d have started Kabak alongside one of Fabinho or Hendo to allow the other to move into midfield.

 

We have no idea what Kabak is like, the only way to find out is to pick him and give him games to make a case for a permanent signing. He’s basically in a probation period isn’t he?

 

I’d expect he’ll play next week.

Dont get me wrong, I agree with most of what you’re saying on this, but hopefully Klopp and his team have at least more of an idea on Kabak, on his qualities, physical shape, tactical awareness and whether or not he’s ready. They do have more information available than us, not least watching and working with all the players in training. Anyway as you say, at some stage it just has to be tested, but they should know better than us when is the right time. Personally I would expect it to happen during the next handful of games. 

[Joey8FrogsLegs]

3 minutes ago, skaro said:

 

If 1-4 was as a result of the right defence selections, I shudder to think what the score would have been otherwise.

 

I know, I know, Ali... 

 

Imagine the state on here if we threw the new CBs in and lost 1-4. 

[s(k)aturation]

8 minutes ago, Joey8FrogsLegs said:

Imagine the state on here if we threw the new CBs in and lost 1-4. 

That chance may still come.

 

 

[Joey8FrogsLegs]

5 hours ago, skaro said:

That chance may still come.

 

 

Haha, true!

[liverpoolsno9]

Imagine the confidence of the new lads if they played on Sunday, Kabak been playing in a team getting twatted every week, would have done no good at all playing him. 

[Jennings]

Thiago>Gini

[s(k)aturation]

 

Gini can Thiago in the summer?

[Barrington Womble]

On 08/02/2021 at 18:53, The Guest said:

It’s like some people have had a lobotomy.  We weren’t creating tons of chances and battering every side before us last season.  I honestly wonder how fucking thick these people are.  How many games did we win by one goal last season?  I lost count in the end.  We haven’t relentlessly pressed and counter pressed teams regularly for over 2 years because hardly anyone gives us the opportunity.  Our whole game changed to a possession based approach so long ago I can’t even remember it being different.

we've been controlling possession since I can remember. the difference right now is what we do when the opposition get it back. we used to create bundles of chances by winning the ball back high even if our 1st attacks had broken down. we used to constantly strive to go forwards, because if we lost it, we would win it back, it was almost percentage football - and in many cases those times we pinched it back it would give us a better chance as a defence tried to get out of their own box and try to defend 25, 30 yards from goal. Teams get out now and they get out quite easily at times. Tom Heaton was in the commentary box when we played Burnley and talked about how impossible it was to play against us, but in recent games we had just stopped that intensity and the pressure on defence was not the same. So when teams get out that doesn't mean they have 10 players stream up the pitch trying to pinch a goal, it just means they take the pressure off and they might pinch a goal with just a couple of players because our defence is all over the place - they can afford to sit tight and still expect a couple of chances. When we win it back deeper, it's not the same opportunity to counter attack and more often than not we go sideways. We are not putting the same pressure on the opposition because our midfield has not provided the intensity. Since Christmas we had Milner start 3 matches in midfield, his 1st we were like our old selves, the 2nd 3 days later we weren't as good, because milner was not as intense - but we improved when jones came on and provided the intensity, by the 3rd match in 6 days Milner was done and we were back to our losing ways.   Losing Fabinho, who was wonderful at helping teams stay pinned in, so if they tried to bypass our 1st press, he would clean up a lot of poor clearances, and this for me has been as big an issue as any. Our midfield intensity and our obsession with getting the ball into the feet of the forwards or full backs quickly (even at the chance of them losing it, providing us a counter press opportunity) has completely gone. 

[Halcyon Days]

Pickford you cunt.

[YNWAViking]

Good player. Feels like it will take some time for him to get how we like to play though. He slows the play down at times which is not too good. Also a bit hot headed, doing stupid challenges at minute 5 that is hampering him the rest of the game. 

[Dave D]

Have a feeling Klopp is a bit miffed at the whole world at the mo (arent we all) and if there is even the merest suggestion of him feeling pressured to put Fab and Henderson back in midfield then he simply will not. Football managers can sometimes make arses of themselves in situations like this. 

[Joey8FrogsLegs]

10 hours ago, Barrington Womble said:

we've been controlling possession since I can remember. the difference right now is what we do when the opposition get it back. we used to create bundles of chances by winning the ball back high even if our 1st attacks had broken down. we used to constantly strive to go forwards, because if we lost it, we would win it back, it was almost percentage football - and in many cases those times we pinched it back it would give us a better chance as a defence tried to get out of their own box and try to defend 25, 30 yards from goal. Teams get out now and they get out quite easily at times. Tom Heaton was in the commentary box when we played Burnley and talked about how impossible it was to play against us, but in recent games we had just stopped that intensity and the pressure on defence was not the same. So when teams get out that doesn't mean they have 10 players stream up the pitch trying to pinch a goal, it just means they take the pressure off and they might pinch a goal with just a couple of players because our defence is all over the place - they can afford to sit tight and still expect a couple of chances. When we win it back deeper, it's not the same opportunity to counter attack and more often than not we go sideways. We are not putting the same pressure on the opposition because our midfield has not provided the intensity. Since Christmas we had Milner start 3 matches in midfield, his 1st we were like our old selves, the 2nd 3 days later we weren't as good, because milner was not as intense - but we improved when jones came on and provided the intensity, by the 3rd match in 6 days Milner was done and we were back to our losing ways.   Losing Fabinho, who was wonderful at helping teams stay pinned in, so if they tried to bypass our 1st press, he would clean up a lot of poor clearances, and this for me has been as big an issue as any. Our midfield intensity and our obsession with getting the ball into the feet of the forwards or full backs quickly (even at the chance of them losing it, providing us a counter press opportunity) has completely gone. 

This is spot on. Our intensity and pressing is vital to both defence and attack for us.

 

It’s not been the same this season, this is backed by the stats, and we’re not the same team.

Main reason is mental and physical fatigue imo. We manage to raise our game and intensity against the better teams, and do far better against them than against the weaker ones.

[Barrington Womble]

1 hour ago, Joey8FrogsLegs said:

This is spot on. Our intensity and pressing is vital to both defence and attack for us.

 

It’s not been the same this season, this is backed by the stats, and we’re not the same team.

Main reason is mental and physical fatigue imo. We manage to raise our game and intensity against the better teams, and do far better against them than against the weaker ones.

Personally I think our secret has been the players who we'd normally be 1st choice, combined with a high number of top quality players who can rotate in. None of them are amazingly skillful players like we've had in the past, like Alonso, SG or even coutinho. But they are top players, the next tier down, who knew how to follow the patterns of press klopp built. I think a combination of putting our best 2 in defence, some injuries to the backup players (and lack of form for those who've returned), has resulted in the midfield pretty much picking itself and when thiago has got fit, he gets picked rather than learning to find his way in the system - so he plays his system and it has become the final nail in the coffin. Gini looks dead on his feet. Jones has had to play when it's suited us, rather than when it would suit him as you would like with youngsters - he's been great at times, but looked devoid of energy and confidence at others. 

 

I don't think empty grounds can be ruled out as a contributing factor, but we just have to be better than that and find a way, it's the same for everyone. 

[Red74]

I wonder if FSG said to Klopp it’s either big money on a centre half or you can have Thiago in on massive wages. 
 

Klopp was on record saying he was a big fan and this was his last chance to get to work with him so he’s probably thought I can drop Fabinho back for when Matip and Gomez have their 3 month injuries and not have any drop off in quality the way Thiago ran games for Bayern. 

I was made up when we signed him and thought he’d take us to another level. Didn’t think it’d be down to the basement like. 

 

[Brownie]

He was garbage today.

[Barrington Womble]

3 minutes ago, Red74 said:

I wonder if FSG said to Klopp it’s either big money on a centre half or you can have Thiago in on massive wages. 
 

Klopp was on record saying he was a big fan and this was his last chance to get to work with him so he’s probably thought I can drop Fabinho back for when Matip and Gomez have their 3 month injuries and not have any drop off in quality the way Thiago ran games for Bayern. 

I was made up when we signed him and thought he’d take us to another level. Didn’t think it’d be down to the basement like. 

 

I think it was already discussed.... We made the call to have a backup left back over a centre back. Thiago is here because we funded his transfer fee from Brewster and his wages from lallana